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Old 2010-11-14, 12:26   Link #18821
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...Maria is consistently portrayed as innocent and ignorant of what's really going on.
Except she isnt? She's the first one to point out how the murderers are following the pattern in the epitaph and she clearly knows she's in no danger during the first 2 episodes, hell she has no fear in EP3 or EP4 either. I still doubt she's actually dead in EP3 after she's moved to that room as they yet explained the latches on the windows and the chains on the doors closing unless one of the adults is unwittingly doing it and the only one that could have done that is Eva.

Unless there is a mastermind figure working behind the scenes the most probable culprit is Yasu or Mr X, in nearly all of the episodes. If Yasu is still considered a servant then there are no probable culprits and it really is a witch
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Old 2010-11-14, 12:32   Link #18822
musouka
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
In addition to all of this, Lion doesn't seem to have any complexes over her body. Of course, one could say Lion has accepted her condition as intersexed - assuming she is. But, considering this would have no relevance to Yasu's issues, I don't see why intersexuality would come into play.
Are you kidding? When Will asks Lion what gender he is, Lion has an incredibly strong reaction. His gratefulness when Will eventually admits that it doesn't matter to him is equally strong. There is no need to introduce the idea of gender ambiguity into Lion's life--or for that matter, have him dress and act as a man--if there isn't any ambiguity in the first place. I know you don't like the idea of Lion or Beatrice being intersex, but at this point I think it's pretty impossible to ignore what the series is saying. Having mangled genitals doesn't give you a "male persona" like Zepar and Furfur are supposed to symbolize, for one.
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Old 2010-11-14, 13:16   Link #18823
AuraTwilight
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Except she isnt? She's the first one to point out how the murderers are following the pattern in the epitaph and she clearly knows she's in no danger during the first 2 episodes, hell she has no fear in EP3 or EP4 either. I still doubt she's actually dead in EP3 after she's moved to that room as they yet explained the latches on the windows and the chains on the doors closing unless one of the adults is unwittingly doing it and the only one that could have done that is Eva.
What I meant with that comment is that she doesn't seem to be aware that a non-human culprit is responsible and basically treats it as a supernatural game where no permanent harm will be left when all's said and done. She doesn't feel any sense of danger.

Since when did they move Maria's corpse after she dies in EP3? Moreover, if I remember correctly, I think she's confirmed dead in red.

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Unless there is a mastermind figure working behind the scenes the most probable culprit is Yasu or Mr X, in nearly all of the episodes. If Yasu is still considered a servant then there are no probable culprits and it really is a witch
Someone's never played EP7.
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Old 2010-11-14, 13:28   Link #18824
Keriaku
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The fact that so many people are willing to say that there's no possible way Maria could commit murder, or that she's completely innocent/ignorant, is why I think a Maria murder accomplice reveal could have such an impact. If we found out in EP8 that she had some sizable hand in the events went down, if we looked over everything that has been shown and presented about her, nobody could really say that it came out of no where or that it's unrealistic. It would turn the events on the island into a true tragedy, with a misguided and abused girl doing horrific things for her unfortunate friend looking for love.

I'm no kind of expert on whatever red texts they have about Maria over the games, but I think thematically for the series, this would be a heart-clinching ending. This would also have the potential for some kind of 'resolvable' end, whether or not it's completely happy one.
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Old 2010-11-14, 13:50   Link #18825
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
after she dies in EP3? Moreover, if I remember correctly, I think she's confirmed dead in red..
Rosa and Maria's bodies are moved to the guest house after they find them. Her death is declared by saying they died rather than saying they are dead as its usually used in these games. Beatrice gives this red truth for free as Battler didn't get the chance to ask if they where dead.

I think Maria survived her initial death by being resuscitated by another person like say "Beatrice". This would fit with the fantasy we where shown as she brought Maria back , then again she brought Rosa back again as well but its harder to fake death after getting impaled in the medula oblangata. She then gets moved to the guest house and goes about locking doors and windows after "Beatrice" lures George, Krauss and Natsuhi out of the house.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:21   Link #18826
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I think Maria survived her initial death by being resuscitated by another person like say "Beatrice". This would fit with the fantasy we where shown as she brought Maria back , then again she brought Rosa back again as well but its harder to fake death after getting impaled in the medula oblangata. She then gets moved to the guest house and goes about locking doors and windows after "Beatrice" lures George, Krauss and Natsuhi out of the house.
Other than what I said before about how they are declared dead in the same red and it has to apply to both of them. There's a reason this red exists.

The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed

Nanjo never described a "clinical death" in the text. He said Maria died of strangulation and Rosa died when the fence pierced through her medulla oblongata. That's the context.

Therefore Maria and Rosa are really dead

get over it.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:30   Link #18827
Cao Ni Ma
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And your point is? Clinical death is still death and it was caused by strangulation, the red does not contradict this. The difference is that one is reversible and resuscitation isn't that hard to do.

If you go about denying the possibility that her death was a clinical death because of the red about what Nanjo diagnose then I deny the possibility that her death was a permanent or biological death on the same grounds.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:39   Link #18828
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
And your point is? Clinical death is still death and it was caused by strangulation, the red does not contradict this. The difference is that one is reversible and resuscitation isn't that hard to do.

If you go about denying the possibility that her death was a clinical death because of the red about what Nanjo diagnose then I deny the possibility that her death was a permanent death on the same grounds.
And again death has to mean the same thing for Both Maria and Rosa. That's how the red works. If it's not reversible for Rosa it's not reversible for Maria either. That's the point.

Nanjo would have to do that within 8 minutes after her strangulation to resuscitate her before brain death occurs. It's utterly impossible. Again she's dead get over it.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:46   Link #18829
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And again death has to mean the same thing for Both Maria and Rosa. That's how the red works. If it's not reversible for Rosa it's not reversible for Maria either. That's the point.

Nanjo would have to be there within 8 minutes of her strangulation to resuscitate her before brain death occurs. It's utterly impossible. Again she's dead get over it.
It wasn't Nanjo that resuscitated her it was "Beatrice" and lets say both where in a state of clinical death at one point. Since Rosa is stuck to fence bringing her back would have been exponentially harder borderline impossible. Maria on the other hand still had a chance to get CPR as she wasnt bleeding to biological death.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:52   Link #18830
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
It wasn't Nanjo that resuscitated her it was "Beatrice" and lets say both where in a state of clinical death at one point. Since Rosa is stuck to fence bringing her back would have been exponentially harder borderline impossible. Maria on the other hand still had a chance to get CPR as she wasnt bleeding to biological death.
She has to be strangled first off. So there's a gap in time before discovering her.

She has to be diagnosed by Nanjo as dead later to be 'dead as he diagnosed'. An Nanjo's going to be busy looking at Rosa's body too.

And as I said before Maria has to be resuscitated within 8 minutes before brain death. There is not enough time with all this stuff going on. It doesn't matter who does it. The order of events makes it so there's no sensible way for it to work.
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Old 2010-11-14, 14:58   Link #18831
Cao Ni Ma
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We already know she was strangled and people doing mis diagnosis is pretty common in this series so far as we could infer that Shanon or Kanon wasn't dead after the first twilight.

Lets say that Maria drags Rosa out of the guest house to "see her flower" and says something outside that gets Rosa on her nerves. To the point that she drops her rifle and proceeds to choke Maria to death. Gets a little out of hand and puts her in a state of clinical death. "Beatrice" just saw this and ran to her friend but was too late, pushes Rosa to the fence and gets her stuck there and proceeds to give Maria CPR. Brings her back and tells her to play dead for the others.
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:01   Link #18832
Used Can
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Are you kidding? When Will asks Lion what gender he is, Lion has an incredibly strong reaction. His gratefulness when Will eventually admits that it doesn't matter to him is equally strong. There is no need to introduce the idea of gender ambiguity into Lion's life--or for that matter, have him dress and act as a man--if there isn't any ambiguity in the first place.
Lion definitely had a reaction, but it wasn't particularly strong. All Lion said was that people tend ask her a lot about her sex, and that it had become an annoyance, to the point she had developed a complex on her looks.

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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
I know you don't like the idea of Lion or Beatrice being intersex, but at this point I think it's pretty impossible to ignore what the series is saying. Having mangled genitals doesn't give you a "male persona" like Zepar and Furfur are supposed to symbolize, for one.
There's a difference between me not buying the idea and me not liking it, please learn to make that distinction. Also, I've said the possibility is there, precisely of things like Zepar and Furfur. So, I'm by no means denying it.

My point basically was that Yasu started complaining due to something she learned about herself, and which is related to the incident when she fell from a cliff, in which I see no connection to intersexuality at all.
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:03   Link #18833
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
We already know she was strangled and people doing mis diagnosis is pretty common in this series so far as we could infer that Shanon or Kanon wasn't dead after the first twilight.
Not in Maria's case because The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed.

Don't even get me started on Kanon and Shannon.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Lets say that Maria drags Rosa out of the guest house to "see her flower" and says something outside that gets Rosa on her nerves. To the point that she drops her rifle and proceeds to choke Maria to death. Gets a little out of hand and puts her in a state of clinical death. "Beatrice" just saw this and ran to her friend but was too late, pushes Rosa to the fence and gets her stuck there and proceeds to give Maria CPR. Brings her back and tells her to play dead for the others.
Occam's razor. "the simplest explanation is more likely the correct one"
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:10   Link #18834
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Not in Maria's case because The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed.

Don't even get me started on Kanon and Shannon.
Again we are back to square one, I already answered this.


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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Occam's razor. "the simplest explanation is more likely the correct one"
So Mr X killed both Maria and Rosa while Rosa had a rifle in her hands then proceeds to use crazy inventions to re-latch doors and windows as he moves about the grounds murdering people in the island. Makes total sense
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:14   Link #18835
Judoh
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So Mr X killed both Maria and Rosa while Rosa had a rifle in her hands then proceeds to use crazy inventions to re-latch doors and windows as he moves about the grounds murdering people in the island. Makes total sense
So you're saying if Maria is dead no other suspect would work except person X? That's a fallacy you know.
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:21   Link #18836
Cao Ni Ma
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So you're saying if Maria is dead no other suspect would work except person X? That's a fallacy you know.
Then tell me a theory that fits every single aspect of EP3 including the latches being placed after there is no person that could apparently re-set them, Krauss, Natsuhi, George and Nanjo's death. EP7 has a particular truth but it doesn't cover every single thing in it. Here's hoping that Battler's or whoever is going to be narrating EP8 does!
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:24   Link #18837
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Then tell me a theory that fits every single aspect of EP3 including the latches being placed after there is no person that could apparently re-set them, Krauss, Natsuhi, George and Nanjo's death. EP7 has a particular truth but it doesn't cover every single thing in it. Here's hoping that Battler's or whoever is going to be narrating EP8 does!
You're talking about the windows? Nanjo and Eva were both inside and capable of doing that at the time. Battler made a theory about them locking the windows that was never denied.

it's sort of the same as what Legend Beatrice did with the windows in episode 6.
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Old 2010-11-14, 15:51   Link #18838
Cao Ni Ma
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Angry

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
You're talking about the windows? Nanjo and Eva were both inside and capable of doing that at the time. Battler made a theory about them locking the windows that was never denied.

it's sort of the same as what Legend Beatrice did with the windows in episode 6.
Yeah, that answer is exactly what Battler comes up with in that scene. But you shouldn't be satisfied with given answer. Even if the book says the cheese needs to be cut three times to achieve the desired results. What if you could achieve those results with fewer cuts? What needs to happen to reach that result?

Logically the only persons who could have done these where Nanjo and Eva but what sort of puzzle would that be if the answer was that simple? What if neither of them did it?
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Old 2010-11-14, 16:04   Link #18839
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Nanjo and Eva are in on the Fake Epitaph Murders. It makes sense for either or both to let George go in order to continue on with the faking. More Nanjo than Eva though.

It makes sense that George needs to go out to the back because it seemed Battler, Natsuhi and Krauss (in ep 3 that is) weren't in on the fake murders...
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Old 2010-11-14, 16:13   Link #18840
Cao Ni Ma
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All the murders are fake because the rifles they have are fake. There is no production Winchester that looks like that
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