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Old 2010-11-16, 08:26   Link #18861
Cao Ni Ma
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More symbolism that I glanced over after re-reading some older episodes. While dining or having lunch Battler and Maria eat opposite to each other. Battler uses white clothing and is also one of two characters to have a cross in his clothing. Maria sitting opposite to him also has a crown with a cross in her head and uses black clothing.

e- Actually Kyrie also has a cross in her clothing and she has dark clothing as well. Interesting!
e2- Then again her's is red, the truth? A herring? Also if you spin battler around and look at him upside down the part of his coat where the cross is looks like a crown.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-16 at 09:08.
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Old 2010-11-16, 09:50   Link #18862
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Wait a second what if Yasu's mother WAS named Maria and the name Beatrice is an inherited title to represent the perfect woman Kinzo desires?
She does say "everyone calls me Beatrice" and the like, and if the whole Beatrice C. thing is true, you would think the mother would have some say in naming her own daughter (and she doesn't seem the sort arrogant enough to name her own daughter Beatrice as well). It'd also make more sense for an Italian woman to name a girl Maria than a Japanese man, but then again, Kinzo was naming all his kids western names before he met Beatrice, so that's a wash.
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It's impossible to fire guns with muffin hands, anyway.
A lever-operated gun could totally be fired by your thumb if you curl your muffin hand into the lever upside-down. Firing the gun will cause it to jump as the lever is pulled out though. Also it might break your thumb.

Muffin hands could, however, explain the extreme force of Krauss's punches.
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Old 2010-11-16, 10:49   Link #18863
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You know guys, I was thinking about the similarities in Battler's and Lion's situations in EP4 and EP7 respectively. Both of them were told that the woman they thought to be their mother wasn't actually their mother. This information was quite a blow to them. Especially to Battler, who erased himself.

Either way, in addition to this, I remember the 2 Beatrices from EP4. Back in the day, many people used to talk about this, but it seems it's been sort of forgotten by now. I was thinking, could there be any connection between the 2 Beatrices and Zepar and Furfur.
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Old 2010-11-16, 11:39   Link #18864
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She does say "everyone calls me Beatrice" and the like, and if the whole Beatrice C. thing is true, you would think the mother would have some say in naming her own daughter (and she doesn't seem the sort arrogant enough to name her own daughter Beatrice as well). It'd also make more sense for an Italian woman to name a girl Maria than a Japanese man, but then again, Kinzo was naming all his kids western names before he met Beatrice, so that's a wash.
Actually I have been thinking of this for a bit now. I'm probably seeing too much cause I desperately don't want Beato-3 to be really Beato-2's child. If Beato-2 never had sex (and thus shouldn't have children) but Kinzo is convinced that she did have a child (or desperately wants to believe so) the Yasu name is quite fitting.

But meh, that's probably insane trying to see too much, I just really hate the idea of Beato-2 having given birth. Unless of course her whole story with Rosa is a lie... but that's another thing.
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Old 2010-11-16, 13:00   Link #18865
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I really dont like the idea of rampant incest going with Kinzo either, he has...too much love...
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Old 2010-11-16, 13:39   Link #18866
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It's unfair to Kinzo to accuse him of all that stuff, basically. Of all the characters in the overall fiction, he is the most heavily fictionalized (on account of only ever appearing in what amounts to biased sources) and the most inconsistently characterized. Being dead, he can't even appear as a piece to defend himself "as himself." We have no fewer than a half-dozen or so portrayals of Kinzo, and no genuinely reliable portrait of him. Worse, we're outright told he's a complex figure, so even if there's elements of truth to all the portrayals, none of them are necessarily perfect.

He is easy to scapegoat. But Beatrice's behavior should already have us leery of scapegoating people. Especially people who can't defend themselves.
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Old 2010-11-16, 14:28   Link #18867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
真里亞 = Maria
眞音 = Manon

真 = Maria's "Ma"
眞 = Manon's "Ma"

As you can see, they are not the same. Although, they have the exact same meaning and readings as well.
*slap.*

Note to self, need to re-read Episodes 1 and 2. It's been too long.

My point about the "Maria Ushiromiya" signature is still valid though.

Quote:
Either way, in addition to this, I remember the 2 Beatrices from EP4. Back in the day, many people used to talk about this, but it seems it's been sort of forgotten by now. I was thinking, could there be any connection between the 2 Beatrices and Zepar and Furfur.
By the two Beatrices, do you mean the Meta and Board Beatrices who talked to each other? If so, I don't think there's any connection, what with the "opposite genders" thing. It's pretty obvious that Zepar and Furfur are Shannon and Kanon.

Quote:
Actually I have been thinking of this for a bit now. I'm probably seeing too much cause I desperately don't want Beato-3 to be really Beato-2's child. If Beato-2 never had sex (and thus shouldn't have children) but Kinzo is convinced that she did have a child (or desperately wants to believe so) the Yasu name is quite fitting.

But meh, that's probably insane trying to see too much, I just really hate the idea of Beato-2 having given birth. Unless of course her whole story with Rosa is a lie... but that's another thing.
You know, there actually are cases in real life and realistic fiction where women gave birth without ever realizing they were pregnant. It involved a lot of real-world ignorance and pain-killing drugs.

Somehow, I can sort of see Beatrice-2 being hopped up on painkillers and mindnumbers so she never realized she was knocked up at any point.

Quote:
It's unfair to Kinzo to accuse him of all that stuff, basically. Of all the characters in the overall fiction, he is the most heavily fictionalized (on account of only ever appearing in what amounts to biased sources) and the most inconsistently characterized. Being dead, he can't even appear as a piece to defend himself "as himself." We have no fewer than a half-dozen or so portrayals of Kinzo, and no genuinely reliable portrait of him. Worse, we're outright told he's a complex figure, so even if there's elements of truth to all the portrayals, none of them are necessarily perfect.

He is easy to scapegoat. But Beatrice's behavior should already have us leery of scapegoating people. Especially people who can't defend themselves.
I agree with this entirely, but I will add on that note that I don't think the incest thing is something he really needs to be "absolved" of. Call me sick or weird, but I never for a moment held the incest thing against him. I just felt sorry for the poor guy.
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Old 2010-11-16, 14:37   Link #18868
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's unfair to Kinzo to accuse him of all that stuff, basically. Of all the characters in the overall fiction, he is the most heavily fictionalized (on account of only ever appearing in what amounts to biased sources) and the most inconsistently characterized. Being dead, he can't even appear as a piece to defend himself "as himself." We have no fewer than a half-dozen or so portrayals of Kinzo, and no genuinely reliable portrait of him. Worse, we're outright told he's a complex figure, so even if there's elements of truth to all the portrayals, none of them are necessarily perfect.

He is easy to scapegoat. But Beatrice's behavior should already have us leery of scapegoating people. Especially people who can't defend themselves.
Well we're told a lot about Kinzo, but unless the whole sub story is a lie... he lost all credits in my book. Jerk found 10 tons of gold and made insane bets and was lucky. He doesn't deserve any credits to me.

I guess there's a lot more too. We were told he was deep, for instance, by Genji. Genji who said the master was so intelligent and sometimes he couldn't grasp his thoughts... but in truth he's not even really loyal to Kinzo and is the one manipulating him with the whole Shkanon thing.

Ever since arc 7 it's hard to see Kinzo as anything more then a bipolar emo compulsive drunkard with a lot of luck. Unless everything is a lie, but ... I'm not buying that.
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Old 2010-11-16, 15:28   Link #18869
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Regarding Kinzo, I think things should probably be seen from a different angle. Indeed, he pulled a lot of shit back in the day. He had the Italians killed, he probably got rid of part of his family (they're nowhere to be seen), and he had a child with his daughter. And that's pretty much shit, but I think that, rather than trying to turning him into a saint by overlooking the info we've got or plainly rejecting it, I think the point is to look at the current situation.

Kinzo pretty much became a miserable man and he did try to find some degree of forgiveness from Beatrice. That's probably why we usually saw him crying in those fantasy scenes and the reason why in Lion's world he held that funeral for Beatrice.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
My point about the "Maria Ushiromiya" signature is still valid though.
It may be. I used to make the same point before EP7. Both kanji mean the same thing, and they are read in the same way.

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By the two Beatrices, do you mean the Meta and Board Beatrices who talked to each other? If so, I don't think there's any connection, what with the "opposite genders" thing. It's pretty obvious that Zepar and Furfur are Shannon and Kanon.
Yes, I meant the 2 Beatrices who spoke with each other during Battler's trial. I just find it really weird and I'm sure there must be some significance to it.

As for Zepar and Furfur being Shannon and Kanon, I'd have agreed easily by EP6 and I still sort of do, but after the whole unknown gender for Yasu/Lion, I wonder if there's more to it.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Ever since arc 7 it's hard to see Kinzo as anything more then a bipolar emo compulsive drunkard with a lot of luck. Unless everything is a lie, but ... I'm not buying that.
Dude, you could say this about all the characters. By EPs1-4, most people thought the Ushiromiyas were nice people being treated like shit by a witch, and now we're fully sure they're full of shit to some degree. The servants are quite likely involved in some rather sick game - that, or they're been forced into it. George used to be fat, now he's FAT. Jessica, Gohda and Maria... well... tough luck.

However, the biggest "transformation" was Beatrice, who went from a powerful, calculating amazing witch, to so servant, who is not really well up in the head, has some issue with its body, and has a dubious sex.
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:01   Link #18870
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Quote:
Yes, I meant the 2 Beatrices who spoke with each other during Battler's trial. I just find it really weird and I'm sure there must be some significance to it.

As for Zepar and Furfur being Shannon and Kanon, I'd have agreed easily by EP6 and I still sort of do, but after the whole unknown gender for Yasu/Lion, I wonder if there's more to it.
Well, with Shkanon, Shannon and Kanon can be seen as the feminine and masculine sides of Yasu's identity and whatnot.

As for the two Beatrices...it's just Meta-Beatrice talking to Board-Beatrice. It's not all that weird, considering.
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Old 2010-11-16, 17:10   Link #18871
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Spoiler for Comparions with Higurashi:
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Old 2010-11-16, 17:23   Link #18872
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Going a little off topic here, but concerning the scene where Shannon turned android on Will when they first talked to each other, I think that the reason why Shannon and Kanon can't appear together is that it might create some form of paradox. Such as in EP5 during the letter scene, they appeared at the same time and Erika couldn't wrap her head around what caused the knocking sounding and the letter's appearance.
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Old 2010-11-16, 18:22   Link #18873
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And the Whydunnit is...?
Why done what? Writing the stories, or being the culprit?

I'd say Beatrice's behaviour is probably the biggest hint. Her motivation seems to be to take Battler and keep him all to herself forever (after all, what happened last time she let him out of her sight?). That's one possibility.

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This might work for Episode Four, MAYBE, but Kyrie can't of caused all the murders of EP3. I would peg her getting up and killing Nanjo and George, assuming them to be accomplices of the person who tried to kill her, but otherwise no.
Really? I don't think she has an alibi for any ep3 murder (and there's the whole "Left the guesthouse for a very strange and tenuous reason"). Heck, since she apparently wasn't with the first twilight discovery group, she could even have been re-killing.
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Old 2010-11-16, 19:08   Link #18874
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
You know guys, I was thinking about the similarities in Battler's and Lion's situations in EP4 and EP7 respectively. Both of them were told that the woman they thought to be their mother wasn't actually their mother. This information was quite a blow to them. Especially to Battler, who erased himself.

Either way, in addition to this, I remember the 2 Beatrices from EP4. Back in the day, many people used to talk about this, but it seems it's been sort of forgotten by now. I was thinking, could there be any connection between the 2 Beatrices and Zepar and Furfur.
People still talked about it after episode 6. It was a theory called Doubletrice. Formerly known as fusiontrice because the meta Beatrice character was supposed to represent a combination of the personalities of both of them.

Zepar and Furfur can be used as evidence for it as well I think, but it was mostly based on the two beatrice's in episodes 4 and 6.
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Old 2010-11-17, 13:23   Link #18875
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Just reposting most points of my Battler never came back on Rokkenjima theory for linking purpose.

Battler never came back on Rokkenjima Prime theory

- The stories were written either before Rokkenjima Prime or after in the case of later arcs,. In neither scenario does Battler's presence or having him really returned to Rokkenjima necessary.

- Mentions in arc 2 that Beatrice is going to turn Battler into her furniture. By what we know about furniture by now it seems hard to see it as something else then "I'll make you a character in my story and do whatever I want with you."

- Meta-Ange in arc 4 exactly says that she isn't the real Ange, isn't the daughter of her parents or the sister of her brother. She is aware that she's only a piece in a story by that point in short. The same thing answers Battler's identity crisis. The real Battler is really Asumu's son, the one we've seen is only a character.

- Battler is too idealized, clearly imagined by the eyes of someone who loves him. He even looks like a Kinzo lookalike. He's charming, tall, loved by everyone, a bit too perfect in the eyes of a lover. He's more or less a champion of morals by trying to defend everyone from being a culprit as well.

- Future Ange in arc 4 mentions more then once how she wished Battler would hurry up and make up with Rudolph, but she never actually mentions that he did come back.

- Battler is the detective of the story. In arc 5-6-7 the detectives, Erika and Will, most certainly weren't on Rokkenjima Prime. The same goes most likely for Battler.

- Arc 7 he is so almost not there that he can be considered almost an apparition or a temporary vision that someone had.

- The Meta World is actually Yasu's mind. Meta-Battler's reactions in arc 1-2-3-4 at the very least are nothing but Yasu's imagined reaction of having Battler reads her stories. Arc 5-6's meta-world is like the real Battler's mind as he challenges the stories and arc 7's small bits of meta world are likely Ange's mind.

- Repeatedly said that it's possible that Battler returned to Ange. That seems only possible at all if he didn't go. A scenario where Battler remained hidden on the island while Eva was rescued and then somehow left in secret is getting too absurd.

- The single witness that Battler actually went to Rokkenjima is Kawabata, however Battler never actually directly met him in most arcs, his testominy might be based on reading the letters themselves.

- Batter's sin has a much bigger impact if he never actually came back. By arc 7 we know that even if he doesn't come back the murders occurs so it also seems to support that he never really did come back.

- Many theories already existing that sugget Amakusa Juuza might be Battler. Interesting enough Battler hates his name and we've never been told Asumu's last name. However that's arguably quite another debate.

- Thematically Arc 8 should answer arc 4's question of "who is Battler". Should expect a bigger revelation to be behind that then "Battler is Kyrie's son". About Kyrie being the mother, everyone used to complain about how it was impossible to mistake such a thing but gradually decided to accept it was a Ryukishi mistake. I do not believe it was a mistake nor a crazy scenario. There's only one real Battler, Asumu's son, the other is a character in Yasu's stories/mind.

A few screenshots that might be worth seeing as well.
Ange 1
Ange 2
Ange 3

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-17 at 16:31.
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Old 2010-11-17, 14:56   Link #18876
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Though in general the idea is totally awesome and I like most of these points, but I think the "Battler is Asumu's son, but the Red can't be said because he's imaginary" thing would be a total copout that would be just as bad, if not worse, than using Shkanon to dodge death reds.
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Old 2010-11-17, 15:12   Link #18877
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The story wouldn't make any sense if Battler didn't go back. EP7 outright states that the real tragedy happened because Battler came back and not because Battler forgot his promise.

If Battler didn't actually come back, then in Rokkenjima prime there's actually no tragedy at all! Or the whole deal of "Battler came back = tragedy" is nothing but Yasu's delusion, which would make me wonder what the hell is the point of the metaworld if it's totally disconnected from the real world.


Your points do not seem very sound to me, I'm not going in details, but how the incompetent Battler became an idealized Battler?
I won't deny that Battler has many good points, but it's only to be expected from the main character. He has however a lot of evident flaws, if you don't see them you have a biased perspective.
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Old 2010-11-17, 15:23   Link #18878
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@ Aura Guess I should mention in it I made this theory originally out of twisting the possibilities of Shkanontrice's red dodging, in other words it's half a joke theory, but to me many things seems to point out to it so I wouldn't be very surprised.

Jan, lol, I see Battler's flaws but I don't remember saying he was perfect. There's a difference between an idealized Battler and a perfect Battler. I'm basically saying he's a Battler seen through the lens of someone in love with him.

We know from arc 4 that the first message bottle was sent in the sea days before the Rokkenjima incident. Had Battler came back to the island by then? No. Yet the arc still exists, and in it it tells of a tragedy that occurs. Also the idea that the message bottles were written in mere days is somewhat ridiculous.
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Old 2010-11-17, 18:10   Link #18879
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Though in general the idea is totally awesome and I like most of these points, but I think the "Battler is Asumu's son, but the Red can't be said because he's imaginary" thing would be a total copout that would be just as bad, if not worse, than using Shkanon to dodge death reds.
To play the strict Devil's Advocate here: How so?

Red can be used to discuss two different things with the same name; Battler advances this very idea in the same episode and it has yet to ever be specifically countered other than specific instances of "this name is exclusive to x." We have a clear instance in which we are told the following information, roughly:
  • Someone named Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
  • An individual presented as "Ushiromiya Battler" cannot say he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
There are only a few conclusions that can be drawn from this:
  • There were two Ushiromiya Battlers (the common "baby swap" theory). This gives us a "floating" extraneous Battler who we've never seen mentioned and we must deal with it.
  • The person we are seeing in the meta-narrative is not "Ushiromiya Battler."
  • The person we are seeing in the meta-narrative is a different "Ushiromiya Battler," one not "born from Ushiromiya Asumu."
There really aren't a whole lot of other options there. The insinuation that the "baby swap" is the more plausible explanation for the contradiction actually, in my opinion, flies in the face of lex parsimoniae. Much easier to believe either that BATTLER is not Ushiromiya Battler or that he is an "Ushiromiya Battler," but not the one Beatrice is talking about in that particular instance. In either event, and indeed in any event, it is clearly supported that she is talking about a different person.

We don't have to like that, but Beatrice makes it plain as day that it's possible to use red to discuss different people, and if so, the only reason we've come to believe that "Ushiromiya Battler" is not Asumu's son is because the one we actually see isn't. But we've never seen a Battler who isn't BATTLER or fiction-layer Piece Battler. Logically, none of them are the "real" Ushiromiya Battler, in the sense of a flesh and blood person. Accepting that, can we readily call Usagi's interpretation a "cop out?" Ryukishi would point to it is from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born and say "I said it right there plain and obvious; it was your misinterpretation, not my evasiveness, that led you to that conclusion."
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The story wouldn't make any sense if Battler didn't go back. EP7 outright states that the real tragedy happened because Battler came back and not because Battler forgot his promise.
Similarly playing Devil's Advocate...

Counterpoints: Battler asks Beatrice if the murders would have been prevented had he never returned; Beatrice clams up and is evasive. Bernkastel suggests to Lion and Ange that the murders would happen in a world with no Yasu and no returned Battler. You're right that contradictory evidence is presented (and it's even stated that Battler's timing for returning could have affected the outcome, which would seem to make no sense if he didn't). However, that suggestion is itself met by suggestions to the contrary.
Quote:
If Battler didn't actually come back, then in Rokkenjima prime there's actually no tragedy at all! Or the whole deal of "Battler came back = tragedy" is nothing but Yasu's delusion, which would make me wonder what the hell is the point of the metaworld if it's totally disconnected from the real world.
Thematically, one could argue that the message bottle stories are Yasu's faintly dimming hope that Battler will return in time to stop the tragedy, but when he "arrives," he proves no help and she gives up (represented in the surrender and "death" of Beatrice).

One could read this as "if Battler came back... if... but he's not, so I'll finally resolve myself to cause the tragedy I wanted him to save me from."
Quote:
Your points do not seem very sound to me, I'm not going in details, but how the incompetent Battler became an idealized Battler?
Battler's incompetence is endearing because it arises from his high moral standards. He is clearly shown in the stories to be brilliant, almost unimaginably so when he puts rubber to the road. Actually, it'd be hard to argue Piece-Battler is incompetent at all. If Piece-Battler is the only one in the stories, Usagi's point stands. Meta-Battler's incompetence could arise from simply not being the person that Beatrice expects him to be.
Quote:
I won't deny that Battler has many good points, but it's only to be expected from the main character. He has however a lot of evident flaws, if you don't see them you have a biased perspective.
Most of his flaws are inherently forgivable, even tragically noble. This contrasts heavily against some characters viewed in a much less favorable light.
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Old 2010-11-17, 22:13   Link #18880
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The story wouldn't make any sense if Battler didn't go back. EP7 outright states that the real tragedy happened because Battler came back and not because Battler forgot his promise.
Actually, was it established that it was a direct or indirect causation? That is Battler coming back -> Rokkenjima Tragedy?

Or was his coming back and the Rokkenjima Tragedy a correlation?

This is important because it could be:
Something else (i.e. say, someone's plans) --> Rokkenjima Tragedy AND Battler coming back.

In this case, it could be that if Battler doesn't come back then a Rokkenjima Tragedy occurs, but maybe in a vastly different way that we've never seen in the stories before.
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