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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 7 Rating
Perfect 10 25 23.58%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 33 31.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 17.92%
7 out of 10 : Good 17 16.04%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 4.72%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.83%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.94%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.94%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.89%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-11-16, 12:41   Link #141
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I think this episode is great BECAUSE Kirino is back to her usual antics in the end

Tastes are different, but _I_ absolutely can't understand why the exceptionally _boring_ Manami episode was received so well while people sigh about this excellent 2-parter (which displays the true origin of Oreimo). The only explanation I can come up with is that a bi part of the viewership feels uncomfortable with the tension created by Kirino-singing-along-with-Meruru to Insufferable-Selfish-Bitch-Kirino.

Well, I love it. Sorry
It seems to me that the common thread is this: anytime the story makes romantic allusions about Kirino and Kyousuke's growing relationship, people get offended/uptight. The two main reasons I've surmised after reading this thread are: a) people don't want to admit that this theme has always been present as an undercurrent in the story, and b) people don't find Kirino "worthy" because of the "abusive" way she treats Kyousuke.

I don't think, for whatever reason, certain people can see/appreciate what the story is trying to pitch as Kirino's "cute side" when it comes to her relationship with Kyousuke. It's the typical tsundere tension between "honesty" and "dishonesty". The thing that Kyousuke realized by the end of episode 3 (and in many episodes since) is that there actually is something else beneath her brusque and bossy exterior, and every once in a while she peels back her mask just enough to reveal it to him. In the second half of this episode, there were at least two such moments: when she talked about receiving a present from the person she loved, and when she was shown wearing the earrings her brother bought for her. That's the part of Kirino that Kyousuke finds cute (ref: episode 3, show title, etc.), and so he can't help but go along with her antics. In both of those scenes, no matter how tense and annoyed he was before, we see him visibly ease up. Despite it all, he really does care for her; he shrugs it all off as "that's just Kirino being Kirino". And as third-party observers, that same sort of "shrugging it off" is something some viewers don't seem able to do, rightly or wrongly. (I think the show is also pitching Kirino's dishonest side as cute... but I don't expect people who don't already see things that way to change their views on that point. That may take years of tsundere heroine eroge/anime/manga training. )

As I explained to someone recently, I think the appeal in a tsundere heroine is in what you notice beneath the surface (which will eventually rise to the surface over the course of the story), so people who are focused on Kirino's bitchiness re: Kyousuke aren't seeing her in exactly the same way he does. Those brief moments where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough, in their minds, to make up for it. In some cases because they feel Kyousuke has "better options".
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Old 2010-11-16, 12:54   Link #142
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My opinion is that I don't think there's actually meant to be any romantic hints between Kirino and Kyousuke. I think the writers deliberately set up hints that WOULD be taken as hints in any other anime and then have the characters shoot them down as if the writer is saying "Can't we have a story about a relationship between an older brother and his little sister WITHOUT it leading to incest?"

Hence why the writers even gave Kyousuke's dad a typical Tsundere line. I think it's trying to mock such hints, rather than play them straight.
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Old 2010-11-16, 13:00   Link #143
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Old 2010-11-16, 13:19   Link #144
Saturn Beaver
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It seems to me that the common thread is this: anytime the story makes romantic allusions about Kirino and Kyousuke's growing relationship, people get offended/uptight. The two main reasons I've surmised after reading this thread are: a) people don't want to admit that this theme has always been present as an undercurrent in the story, and b) people don't find Kirino "worthy" because of the "abusive" way she treats Kyousuke.

I don't think, for whatever reason, certain people can see/appreciate what the story is trying to pitch as Kirino's "cute side" when it comes to her relationship with Kyousuke. It's the typical tsundere tension between "honesty" and "dishonesty". The thing that Kyousuke realized by the end of episode 3 (and in many episodes since) is that there actually is something else beneath her brusque and bossy exterior, and every once in a while she peels back her mask just enough to reveal it to him. In the second half of this episode, there were at least two such moments: when she talked about receiving a present from the person she loved, and when she was shown wearing the earrings her brother bought for her. That's the part of Kirino that Kyousuke finds cute (ref: episode 3, show title, etc.), and so he can't help but go along with her antics. In both of those scenes, no matter how tense and annoyed he was before, we see him visibly ease up. Despite it all, he really does care for her; he shrugs it all off as "that's just Kirino being Kirino". And as third-party observers, that same sort of "shrugging it off" is something some viewers don't seem able to do, rightly or wrongly. (I think the show is also pitching Kirino's dishonest side as cute... but I don't expect people who don't already see things that way to change their views on that point. That may take years of tsundere heroine eroge/anime/manga training. )

As I explained to someone recently, I think the appeal in a tsundere heroine is in what you notice beneath the surface (which will eventually rise to the surface over the course of the story), so people who are focused on Kirino's bitchiness re: Kyousuke aren't seeing her in exactly the same way he does. Those brief moments where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough, in their minds, to make up for it. In some cases because they feel Kyousuke has "better options".
It's definitely the second main reason for me, as by now I learned to accept that in this anime. I personally don't want that, and can still see how their relationship can still be classified as familial love, but it's obvious that at least the nature that it could easily be mistaken as romantic love is intentional.

Yeah, it's as you said. I haven't watch anime that long but even I understand that what's beneath the surface is the main appeal of tsundere, but like you said the brief moments of where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough in my mind to make up for it. What's more, the rough exterior are way too rough that it puts me off. Simply, there's just too much tsun and not enough dere, although as another poster said this may be partly the fault of the adaptation and the percentage are not so high in the original LN. For instance, in this season there's also Yakumo and Zakuro (which coincidentally has their name on their three word anime title) but while both are cold and can speak brashly about their partner, somehow I find them more tolerable because the ratio isn't as skewed as here.

While I agree that Kyousuke may has "better options", that's not my greatest problem with him. As you said, Kyousuke thinks that the real cute moment is worth it and the brash outer side is just Kirino being Kirino. While for me it's not, and while I understand that's who she is doesn't mean she can't change and improve her behavior instead of having her whims catered to all the time. I think my mistake is that I identify with Kyousuke too much, and got annoyed when he doesn't do as I would like him to do.

So yeah, I guess in order to enjoy future episodes more I guess I shouldn't do that and try to be more patient with Kirino, keeping my complaints to a minimal, while hoping that the background of why she's so hostile will be explained or she'll develop her character a bit so that I can find her more tolerable.
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Old 2010-11-16, 13:51   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
As you said, Kyousuke thinks that the real cute moment is worth it and the brash outer side is just Kirino being Kirino. While for me it's not, and while I understand that's who she is doesn't mean she can't change and improve her behavior instead of having her whims catered to all the time. I think my mistake is that I identify with Kyousuke too much, and got annoyed when he doesn't do as I would like him to do.
You know, props to you for your honest self-reflection. I think a lot of people judge shows based on the way they want it to develop rather than on what the show is trying to actually say. And on a certain level that makes sense; everyone's happy when things go the way they want. This is entertainment, so there's nothing wrong with being a bit selfish (and it's no small surprise that this anime is being used to market a PSP game which will feature a large variety of possible endings so that everyone's personal preferences will be addressed). But all that said, it isn't a fault in the show that Kyousuke has different values than we may have as viewers. It just means that certain viewers may enjoy the show less as a result (because it won't become the show they were hoping it would be).

In a way, I would say that Kyousuke and Kirino are very similar. They both run their mouths and act all hostile with each other (Kirino by acting all bossy/selfish, and Kyousuke by acting all annoyed) but at the end of the day they are growing a certain understanding about and appreciation for each other. And I suspect that is what the anime is trying to portray about their relationship more than anything else; this is a story about "love", regardless of the exact "classification" of that love when the curtain falls.

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Originally Posted by Saturn Beaver View Post
So yeah, I guess in order to enjoy future episodes more I guess I shouldn't do that and try to be more patient with Kirino, keeping my complaints to a minimal, while hoping that the background of why she's so hostile will be explained or she'll develop her character a bit so that I can find her more tolerable.
Well, enjoyment tends to be personal, but "appreciation" doesn't necessarily require quite as much enjoyment. In general terms, I think rather than focus so much on "why I don't like Kirino", people could focus on "what does Kyousuke see in Kirino" (and vice-versa) and thus come to recognize the show's themes and messages more clearly. Otherwise, assuming the show continues to develop as it has so far, I think we're just going to continue seeing more of the same static complaints from here to the end. There is something to be gained from "wising up" to what the story's trying to say, even if it isn't always the message we wish to hear.

(Incidentally, all of these "words of wisdom" (if you can call it that) brought to you by D.C.S.S. Anyone who was there at the time will instantly know why... )
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Old 2010-11-16, 14:07   Link #146
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Gotta accept it for what it is and enjoy it, right? Well, I hope it doesn't go the incest route simply because it feels like everywhere I turn, it's incest.
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Old 2010-11-16, 14:15   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Joe_fh View Post
nor he ever did hate her.
There's no proof that he didn't hate her. There's one hint though that he did, or if not hate, at least disliked her, but as it's right in front of everyone's eyes, it's easily ignored: the series title. "My little sister can't be this cute." This strongly suggests that he never liked her before, but now to his great surprise he's finding out she's actually quite cute.

Spoiler for rest of reply:
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Old 2010-11-16, 14:16   Link #148
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It just means that certain viewers may enjoy the show less as a result (because it won't become the show they were hoping it would be).

Well, enjoyment tends to be personal, but "appreciation" doesn't necessarily require quite as much enjoyment. In general terms, I think rather than focus so much on "why I don't like Kirino", people could focus on "what does Kyousuke see in Kirino" (and vice-versa) and thus come to recognize the show's themes and messages more clearly. Otherwise, assuming the show continues to develop as it has so far, I think we're just going to continue seeing more of the same static complaints from here to the end. There is something to be gained from "wising up" to what the story's trying to say, even if it isn't always the message we wish to hear.

(Incidentally, all of these "words of wisdom" (if you can call it that) brought to you by D.C.S.S. Anyone who was there at the time will instantly know why... )
Yeah, I got what you're saying about how appreciation doesn't always require enjoyment, but it's still much easier to appreciate something when you enjoy it. And well, when the message isn't something that we wish to hear, then perhaps it's better to stop following it rather than be annoyed week after week and complained about it. Still, at least for me, although it's quite major it's not really that big to completely turned me off the series, and besides, assuming that it's just 1-cour, there's only 5-6 episodes left so it's better to see it through to the end.
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Old 2010-11-16, 15:01   Link #149
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you gotta know when to drop a series when it's not going the way you're finding displeasing, I've dropped many to save myself the annoyance later.
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:06   Link #150
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I think a lot of people judge shows based on the way they want it to develop rather than on what the show is trying to actually say. And on a certain level that makes sense; everyone's happy when things go the way they want. This is entertainment, so there's nothing wrong with being a bit selfish (and it's no small surprise that this anime is being used to market a PSP game which will feature a large variety of possible endings so that everyone's personal preferences will be addressed). But all that said, it isn't a fault in the show that Kyousuke has different values than we may have as viewers. It just means that certain viewers may enjoy the show less as a result (because it won't become the show they were hoping it would be).
It's not a fault? To you? Honestly if the story is supposed to broach the gap between two siblings, you would think there would be some give and take between both sides. Otherwise you're left with one guy irrationally trying to get closer to a sister whom for all intensive purposes seems to give two sh*ts about you.

In this kind of story when there is a gap between two siblings you expect to be able to sympathize with both of them. The question is why is there a gap? Why did they both create such a gap in the first place? This reason has not been given yet, and as far as the viewer can tell at the moment, the sister is just being a complete bitch. If you can't sympathize with Kirino at all, why does the viewer feel compelled to watch Kyousuke try to broach the gap between the two siblings? Sorry, I find this to be a fault that has nothing to do with where the story is going. We all know the story is going towards salvaging their relationship (Whether that ends in the despicable wincest is another story).

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
In a way, I would say that Kyousuke and Kirino are very similar. They both run their mouths and act all hostile with each other (Kirino by acting all bossy/selfish, and Kyousuke by acting all annoyed) but at the end of the day they are growing a certain understanding about and appreciation for each other. And I suspect that is what the anime is trying to portray about their relationship more than anything else; this is a story about "love", regardless of the exact "classification" of that love when the curtain falls.
I hardly qualify any of Kirino's actions as actions of love, but more of a selfish, spoiled brat. She's thanked her brother once (Maybe twice?) in the story, and that's as far she's gone. There has been no significant changes in her actions towards her brother since episode 1, even though he has pretty much prostrated himself for her. I would think a little kindness would be in order, but no the story seems to portray her as having literally zero development between her and Kyousuke.

Only Kyousuke has been the one seen to have developments of sibling love for her sister, though at this point, it seems like a one sided relationship.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, enjoyment tends to be personal, but "appreciation" doesn't necessarily require quite as much enjoyment. In general terms, I think rather than focus so much on "why I don't like Kirino", people could focus on "what does Kyousuke see in Kirino" (and vice-versa) and thus come to recognize the show's themes and messages more clearly. Otherwise, assuming the show continues to develop as it has so far, I think we're just going to continue seeing more of the same static complaints from here to the end. There is something to be gained from "wising up" to what the story's trying to say, even if it isn't always the message we wish to hear.
This relationship is one sided right now. What I'm looking for is what Kirino sees in her brother. Right now, it seems like a lump of trash that she can exploit.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It seems to me that the common thread is this: anytime the story makes romantic allusions about Kirino and Kyousuke's growing relationship, people get offended/uptight. The two main reasons I've surmised after reading this thread are: a) people don't want to admit that this theme has always been present as an undercurrent in the story, and b) people don't find Kirino "worthy" because of the "abusive" way she treats Kyousuke.
I would stop trying to be an internet psychologist here. That theme is fairly obvious. But there's a difference between constantly alluring to it (When the show isn't going to do that) and alluring to it because it really is going to happen. Honestly I'd be more pissed off if this is a case of the former, rather than the latter. I don't think it's funny, I don't think it's cute, and it's definitely not normal, yet they seem to portray it as something acceptable to the viewers.

The fascination with incest in the Otaku fanbase is a little out of control. Sure, I don't care if there's a show here and there that explores this "forbidden love," but it seems to be more normal in anime to see incestual relationships than just sibling bonds. I find this laughable to say the least.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I don't think, for whatever reason, certain people can see/appreciate what the story is trying to pitch as Kirino's "cute side" when it comes to her relationship with Kyousuke.
<snip>
And as third-party observers, that same sort of "shrugging it off" is something some viewers don't seem able to do, rightly or wrongly. (I think the show is also pitching Kirino's dishonest side as cute... but I don't expect people who don't already see things that way to change their views on that point. That may take years of tsundere heroine eroge/anime/manga training. )
This "cute" side? It seems to me like the sister is using her brother. What has Kirino truly done for her brother in return in this series yet? Honestly, if 90% of this relationship is built by one side, then it's stupid. It takes two to tango, and so far I only see one. I don't think anyone has been arguing about how Kyousuke sees her, more how Kirino sees her brother.
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:14   Link #151
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:17   Link #152
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Well as relentlessflame and even a certain character in this very ep has pointed out, there's no right or wrong to a work of creativity, only the level of enjoyment you can obtain from it. For all you who can't emphasis with Kirino, i do believe you're missing one of the main points of the series; the development of the relationship between Kirino and Kyousuke. The entire idea is that their level starts off basically at zero then works up from there. If she was already going all dere over him then that would just turn her into another Shana or Louis, which IMO would make her less endearing- just like how Manami is boring to me because she's normal, a "normal" tsundere is boring because she's predictable. In this sense Kirino shares some of the characteristics of the defrosting ice queen; it is only through development that you see more of her soft side rather than it being in sight from the beginning. Plus, she's cute! <3 *loses capacity for further logical reasoning*

edit: wow, I wait for 2 minutes to post and a huge wall of text suddenly appears x_x comrades I leave it to you to continue the fight!
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:28   Link #153
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the development of the relationship between Kirino and Kyousuke. The entire idea is that their level starts off basically at zero then works up from there.
It seems even the obvious isn't that blatant. As several of us explained already: no, we don't need a Manami MKII.
Kirino was shown as the bratty, spoiled and bossy little sister, and that was accepted. However, the point you are making is exactly what nearly everyone expected, but a good chunk is -not- satisfied: that there is basically -no-development-at-all-, period.

For all it is worth, Kirino only thanked Kyousuke once, and we had a "cryptic" scene with her wearing the earrings Kyousuke bought for her because he was forced to.

Now, I would love to believe there was a development here, but if you compare Episode 1 with the current state of the story, Kirino just didn't change a single bit: she is forcing Kyousuke to be her life councellor, bidding boy and verbal abuse sandbag.
Now, I said we were "okay" with this first, but the problem is that the dynamics between them are just stagnant.
Triple_R explained quite well that Kirino can be entertaining considering the antics here and there, but when the series shift on the serious stuff between the siblings, it just doesn't tick that well (otherwise, you wouldn't have that sizable part of the fanbase being annoyed by her).
To make things worse, we still don't have any backstory that explains a "core" reason for that wrecked relationship, and we are still shoved by the same dynamic without much reference at hand.

For all it is worth, again: it isn't about having a bloody fluffy little sister AT ALL. After the first episode, there was no mistake what kind of character Kirino is. However, the problem is after the seventh episode, she is just the very same character. And no, there is no need for something like "it isn't like I did that for you!!", but suble actions and gratitude is enough without turning her into a running mill tsundere a la JC staff adaptations.
Undertaker has hinted several times that Kirino is actually "more likable" in the LN. I would love to believe that. Unfortunately, with the presentation of the anime as of now, there is little material to confirm that thought in the said adaptation.

Now I realize some people would love that topic to be dropped, but it would be a lifesaver if the discussion was understood: there isn't any "naysaying" for the hell of it, and there was no claim for "oh, I want a moe imouto in that series". You (general sense) are missing the point totally, despite calling people "missing the point of OreImo".
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:30   Link #154
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snip
Amen. We are talking about a 13 year old girl here...
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Old 2010-11-16, 16:48   Link #155
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It seems to me that the common thread is this: anytime the story makes romantic allusions about Kirino and Kyousuke's growing relationship, people get offended/uptight. The two main reasons I've surmised after reading this thread are: a) people don't want to admit that this theme has always been present as an undercurrent in the story, and b) people don't find Kirino "worthy" because of the "abusive" way she treats Kyousuke.
Does the story want to take that concept seriously, or is it going to play it for laughs? Both are valid options and if you're careful you can do both, but frequently a show will try both too much and fail at both.

Annoying characters don't have to be bad characters, but if their growth as a character hasn't really gone anywhere, then that makes the show more boring. I mean surely, anyone could extrapolate why Kiirino acts the way she is. However, you can't just leave it all up to the audience to fill in the blanks. It can be considered a slightly unfair assessment since it's not over yet, but at the current pace we're going at, it will seem uneven at best and unsatisfying at worst.

Quote:
I don't think, for whatever reason, certain people can see/appreciate what the story is trying to pitch as Kirino's "cute side" when it comes to her relationship with Kyousuke. It's the typical tsundere tension between "honesty" and "dishonesty". The thing that Kyousuke realized by the end of episode 3 (and in many episodes since) is that there actually is something else beneath her brusque and bossy exterior, and every once in a while she peels back her mask just enough to reveal it to him. In the second half of this episode, there were at least two such moments: when she talked about receiving a present from the person she loved, and when she was shown wearing the earrings her brother bought for her. That's the part of Kirino that Kyousuke finds cute (ref: episode 3, show title, etc.), and so he can't help but go along with her antics. In both of those scenes, no matter how tense and annoyed he was before, we see him visibly ease up. Despite it all, he really does care for her; he shrugs it all off as "that's just Kirino being Kirino". And as third-party observers, that same sort of "shrugging it off" is something some viewers don't seem able to do, rightly or wrongly. (I think the show is also pitching Kirino's dishonest side as cute... but I don't expect people who don't already see things that way to change their views on that point. That may take years of tsundere heroine eroge/anime/manga training. )
But those events just suggests to me that Kyousuke's merely trying to put up with her, and of course being her brother, he's going to have to help. This very relationship is what drives the story.

However, trying to take that point and stretch it into something more meaningful is hard that I really can't take these increasingly "guilt trip" tests of love to mean the relationship is mutual. Yes, I accept there's a growing bond between the two sparked by this hobby, but the show's simply been too opaque about the underlying details and the situations just too silly and not reflecting well on Kiirino.

Personally, I've always believed that any form of entertainment needs credibility with the audience. They can't just take everything for granted and ask for them to accept every premise and events without properly going into the details and nuances. Well they can, but it'll lead to their point being muffled. The more credit you build up with the audience, the more things you can do to stretch the suspension of belief.

Quote:
As I explained to someone recently, I think the appeal in a tsundere heroine is in what you notice beneath the surface (which will eventually rise to the surface over the course of the story), so people who are focused on Kirino's bitchiness re: Kyousuke aren't seeing her in exactly the same way he does. Those brief moments where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough, in their minds, to make up for it. In some cases because they feel Kyousuke has "better options".
I won't lie, I'm not a huge fan of this tsundere thing; there's only a few cases where it's worked for me. Of course, the ones that I do like generally I like them for being complete as a character, as frequently the dere side is generally a basis for character development. There are also characters considered "tsundere" that I like that are also complete characters but not because they are tsundere. (Maybe I just hate labels?) To me, the charm of a good tsundere would be that "tsun" draws you in because their abrasive side makes them noticable and "dere" is the payoff. We have an imbalance of both sides right now.

Of course the problem with whatever-dere is that if they grow and develop as a character, then the original gag would disappear... and that could be risky as there's no easy jokes to fall back on. I'd say many a writer is afraid of doing that since that would be an evolved character... and requires effort.

It's fortunate that I'm not an avid shipper, since I don't really care for any of the choices, really, at this point. But at least that also allows me to enjoy the show.


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you gotta know when to drop a series when it's not going the way you're finding displeasing, I've dropped many to save myself the annoyance later.
I think people aren't complaining because the show is bad, but because it's good.
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Old 2010-11-16, 17:18   Link #156
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
However, the point you are making is exactly what nearly everyone expected, but a good chunk is -not- satisfied: that there is basically -no-development-at-all-, period.
Wait whaat? Okay lets recap:

Ep1- Kyousuke gets asked for life counselling. Hooray. Maybe they don't hate each other?

Ep2- Kirino takes his advice, which is a step above ignoring him. Maybe. It's also shown she's starting to rely on him, ie *trust* him.

Ep3- First heartfelt discussion they have. And as you said, Kirino actually thanks him. Hooray!

Ep4- Well i guess this ep doesn't focus on the whole KiriKyou thing very much.

Ep5- By this point Kirino is actually able to open her heart to Kyousuke. He on his part is able to understand and empathise. No difference yet?

Ep6- Despite the Manami-centricness you can see that Kirino actually *cares* that Kyousuke isn't home. Hell, she might even miss him.

Ep7- Alright, "gift from the one you love"? "overnight stay in a hotel?" How is this NOT development from them NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER?

Quote:
Now, I would love to believe there was a development here, but if you compare Episode 1 with the current state of the story, Kirino just didn't change a single bit: she is forcing Kyousuke to be her life councellor, bidding boy and verbal abuse sandbag.
The most important point you seem to have overlooked: Kirino never forced any of this on Kyousuke. When Kyousuke discovered Kirino's hobby, he was the one in a position of power. Kyousuke was the one who started it all: saying he sympathised, that he would help her keep it a secret etc.

And since when has Kirino actually made Kyousuke do anything really? Sure she threw the eroge at him, but Kyousuke had every opportunity to refuse. You also saw his reaction at having finished his first eroge, as well as his ability to expound on it reasonable competently. I do believe his entering this world wasn't so much Kirino's fault (....alright fine it was) but rather that he himself enjoys it and wants to stay.

As for verbal abuse... since when has Kyousuke not given as good as he's got? Everytime Kirino mouthes off at him he snaps right back. The only difference is the level of effect. This ep Kyousuke brushed Kirino's words right off, but you saw how affected Kirino was by Kyousuke's accusations and threats of abandonment. To me that was more cruel than crude jokes about being run over which you simply can't take seriously. Kyousuke's words on the other hand were hurtful.

Quote:
For all it is worth, again: it isn't about having a bloody fluffy little sister AT ALL. After the first episode, there was no mistake what kind of character Kirino is. However, the problem is after the seventh episode, she is just the very same character
Oh for crying.. Alright, again: she's gone from ignoring him to *trying to go on a date with him*. No bloody change? I mean, seriously?

I realise that I may come off as pretty damn biased because I just love Kirino that much, but there you go.
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Old 2010-11-16, 17:26   Link #157
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Seitsuki sure does make some good points here..
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Old 2010-11-16, 17:45   Link #158
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Amen, Seitsuki...

I mean, I watch shows like these for the characters and relationships, but I'm amazed how blatant developments seem to have to be to please folks who are less concentrated on these issues.

I really do like how gradual and subtle the developments are, alot of care and detail has been put into the script and animation. But I guess if you really can't pick them up, the enjoyment _will_ be significantly lessened.
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Old 2010-11-16, 18:28   Link #159
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The most important point you seem to have overlooked: Kirino never forced any of this on Kyousuke. When Kyousuke discovered Kirino's hobby, he was the one in a position of power. Kyousuke was the one who started it all: saying he sympathised, that he would help her keep it a secret etc.

And since when has Kirino actually made Kyousuke do anything really? Sure she threw the eroge at him, but Kyousuke had every opportunity to refuse. You also saw his reaction at having finished his first eroge, as well as his ability to expound on it reasonable competently. I do believe his entering this world wasn't so much Kirino's fault (....alright fine it was) but rather that he himself enjoys it and wants to stay.

As for verbal abuse... since when has Kyousuke not given as good as he's got? Everytime Kirino mouthes off at him he snaps right back. The only difference is the level of effect. This ep Kyousuke brushed Kirino's words right off, but you saw how affected Kirino was by Kyousuke's accusations and threats of abandonment. To me that was more cruel than crude jokes about being run over which you simply can't take seriously. Kyousuke's words on the other hand were hurtful.
The only conclusion that can be make...Kyousuke is a tsundere siscon, and Kirino is a tsundere brocon. Kirino would feel lonely (ep6...) without Kyousuke, while Kyousuke, well, Kirino is too kawaii (and he played too many siscon eroge )

Development? What you expect? Eroge like development where Kyousuke would have tons of ecchi scene with Kirino, then on way to somewhere got his head saw off by Ayase?
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Old 2010-11-16, 18:29   Link #160
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While I wrote that much of this show reminds me of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, I also feel that it's the opposite of that anime in one key way.

My feeling with Haruhi's anime (and the novel source material itself) is that the key characters in them develop nicely and solidly over time, but most of the SOS Brigade relationship dynamics develop at a snail pace, if at all (Yuki, and her relationships with Haruhi and Kyon, being a key exception here).

In other words, while there is a nuanced but definite change in both Haruhi and Kyon, I don't get a sense that this is causing them to grow closer together (as it arguably should).


With Ore no Imouto (though I admit I haven't read the source material for this) I get the sense that numerous relationship dynamics are developing quite nicely, actually, but the characters themselves feel very static.

In other words, I certainly do see where Kyousuke and Kirino are becoming much closer to each other, and I also see good relationship development between Kyousuke and almost every other central character in this anime. In fairness, that's very impressive for seven episodes in.

However, Kirino doesn't strike me as inherently nicer or friendlier or even just more mellowed out than she was at episode one. So, actually, that does beg the question of "Why is Kyousuke going above and beyond for her?". Unless the guy is a simple masochist, it's becoming hard to fathom why he's doing this.

If Kirino was becoming a bit nicer, and showing more of a softer side, I could get it.

Or if we as the audience was let in on some past event where Kyousuke horribly wronged his sister, we'd understand his guilt and desire to make up for it.

But as is, I am finding it hard to understand why Kyousuke is sacrificing so much for his sister.

And, frankly, I somewhat disagree (just like Kyousuke seemed to ) with the argument of "there's no right or wrong to a work of creativity". There is such a thing as bad execution in a work of creativity, and there's enough complaints here from some pretty flexible anime fans that I personally think that the execution could probably be better.


Now, with that being said, some of this is a matter of taste.

Some of us like tsunderes. Some of us don't.

Some of us cheer on what is being called "wincest". Some of us dislike incest.

That's going to bear pretty heavily on how much people enjoy this anime, or its developments or themes, and I think that it would be beneficial if all sides could accept this.

I, for one, can certainly see why somebody who loves tsunderes and "wincest" would absolutely love this anime, and Kirino. This is precisely right up their ally.

But unless you're dere for tsunderes, and criticisms of "wincest" makes you tsun, then this anime can leave you wanting.


I will say this though... everything Kirino has done, and said; all of it; makes perfect sense and is understandable on her part... if she is romantically interested in her brother. In an odd sort of way, the best result for her character would be for her to be established has having such feelings for her brother. Because then everything this anime is doing fits nice and tidy, and the more questionable things Kirino does or says makes sense.

Even though I'm not a fan of "wincest", I now kind of hope that the anime goes that way (at least as it pertains to Kirino being established as having such feelings). Because otherwise Kirino's character is simply a mess, imo. This is not how a sister would try to build a closer platonic bond with her brother. A sister is not this tsundere towards a brother that she simply has normal familial affection for. But it's understandable that a sister might act this way towards her brother if she has romantic feelings for him...

That still leaves us with the question of why Kyousuke is going all out for her, though. And unlike Kirino, I'm really not getting much of any sense of incestuous desire on his part.
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