Spoiler Policy Q&A thread

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Akka

Too bad it's practically ignored.

It's not ignored on purpose. Use the "Report Post" button and the mods will act on any future event spoilers. But mods don't follow every anime or read every thread, so we depend on reports from users. People can, will, and do get infractions and bans for spoilers all the time, but it's an on-going issue.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It's not ignored on purpose. Use the "Report Post" button and the mods will act on any future event spoilers. But mods don't follow every anime or read every thread, so we depend on reports from users. People can, will, and do get infractions and bans for spoilers all the time, but it's an on-going issue.

I didn't mean to imply it was ignored on purpose, sorry if it sounded like this
I just meant that so many people just don't bother with being careful about spoilers, that it would requires to report basically half of a section.
And well, if I report a spoiler, it means I've already been spoiled :-/

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Akka

I just meant that so many people just don't bother with being careful about spoilers, that it would requires to report basically half of a section.

Is there a certain section in particular that you're referring to here? I don't *think* there are any sections that are that bad, but like I said, we don't all review every section or thread...

[Akka]

I'm thinking particularly of the Haruhi and FMP section last year - I can only offer "last year" because, due to massive spoilage about some crucial events from the novels, I didn't want to have a look thereafter, and I have completely abandonned them. Maybe the situation is better now.

More recently, I remember getting some slight spoilers about Bakemonogatari. Can't remember exactly which ones and where, because I didn't care really much about it, and as such the spoilers didn't stuck in my mind - if I had been a fan of the show, I could have remembered more precisely, but then if I had been a fan, I probably wouldn't have dared to look at the forum before finishing the serie

[felix]

Akka, the way the current system works is the entire discussion is handicapped by the rules in hopes if it can't move, nobody gets hurt. Unfortunately this only works (if anywhere) in threads which are reasonably new, get some average discussion and are fairly mediocre as far as discussion speed goes. Everything else (slow threads, fast threads) either crawl along or roll along just fine, even with the handicap. The reason being, given enough mass (ie. spontaneous/spammy discussion) or lack of mass (ie. very precise discussion) the distinction between spoiler and non-spoiler becomes very subjective. In both cases unless the moderators are extremely knowledgeable with regard to the source material, the spoiler is effectively a needle in a haystack.

You're not the first, and undoubtedly not the last, to complain about this issue with spoilers.

In a ideal world it would me more practical (and logical) to simply prevent people from being spoiled, when required. But that would mean keeping/generating blacklists/whitelists and periodically setting sections/threads to require-moderation before posts are published. Since this would require creating plugins, etc, we have no choice but to live with the handicap-system.

[Falkor]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Please read the Spoiler Policy. No matter what the thread, most spoilers are not allowed at all even behind spoilers. There are specific exceptions identified in the rules for the spoilers that are allowed provided they are properly identified and behind spoiler tags. But, only the sorts of spoilers permitted in the Spoiler Policy are allowed. Anything else can be deleted and warnings/infractions issued.

Beyond that, there are also threads (like Episode threads as Gin mentioned) where no spoilers are permitted at all. This is identified in the first post of the thread (but, for the most part, it's usually episode threads).

So if you thought "I'm safe as long as I put my spoilers behind tags"... you'd probably be wrong. Most spoilers on AnimeSuki are not okay even when tagged.

I apologize for quoting a three months old post, but it just came to my attention that what you said, while very important, is not clearly noted in the current Spoiler Policy: the fact that "most spoilers are not allowed at all even behind spoiler tags". I have been here long enough to notice that's how it works, and it's certainly implied within the current policy, but shouldn't this line be clearly stated rather than implied? I think it's already part of the rules governing episode discussion threads within series sub-forums, so it shouldn't be any different for general discussion threads (or any other thread). I will quote two lines in particular that I think should be clearly marked:

Spoilers about future events must not be posted in this thread.
Any spoiler that reveals future events, even under a spoiler tag, will be deleted.

[relentlessflame]

We actually recently added a line to the Spoiler Policy to address this point:

Regardless of these exceptions, any comment that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed is expressly forbidden whether or not it is behind spoiler tags.

Perhaps we could add an additional line after that which says "In other words, any spoiler that reveals future events, even under a spoiler tag, is forbidden." Which is just a more direct way of saying the same thing.

I don't think the issue is so much what the policy says, it's that people don't pay attention and let their first instincts take over. They just see that we have a spoiler tag, and think "as long as I use this tag I can spoil whatever I want" whereas the point of of the spoiler policy is actually the opposite: most spoilers are forbidden, but a few exceptions are okay inside the tags. That's what we try to convey through the wording, but the problem is that most other sites don't do it this way, so you have to fight people's instincts a bit.

[Falkor]

I think someone should also edit monir's post in order to reflect the change. I didn't notice this was actually included in the Forum FAQ (checking the forum guidelines seemed more intuitive for me).

I agree with you that the issue lies with the person posting the spoiler (and perhaps the people replying to them). maybe changing the name of the tag to something else might turn off that instinct, but that would create a different set of problems.

[Miles Teg]

Originally Posted by Akka

I'm thinking particularly of the Haruhi and FMP section last year - I can only offer "last year" because, due to massive spoilage about some crucial events from the novels, I didn't want to have a look thereafter, and I have completely abandonned them. Maybe the situation is better now.

About the FMP sub-forum, the anime has finished in 2006, but novel have continued to be made and translated in English so little by little the sub-forum has turn into a novel forum instead of an anime forum and when you had the fact that this sub-forum is unmoderated then you have novel spoiler everywhere.

So if you don't want to be spoiled then don't go to the sub-forum it's the only advice I can give

If a new anime series is announced the moderator will have a lot of work to make the regular of this sub-forum follow the rules

[Akka]

Originally Posted by felix

In a ideal world it would me more practical (and logical) to simply prevent people from being spoiled, when required. But that would mean keeping/generating blacklists/whitelists and periodically setting sections/threads to require-moderation before posts are published. Since this would require creating plugins, etc, we have no choice but to live with the handicap-system.

No, that's actually completely impossible.
Automated anti-spoiler is simply not possible, it requires understanding the language, which no computer is capable of doing - not to speak of some PHP scripts ^^

At best white/black lists may exist, but most spoilers don't rely on a single words, but rather on meanings.

Originally Posted by Miles Teg

So if you don't want to be spoiled then don't go to the sub-forum it's the only advice I can give

Well, as I said, that's exactly what I did ^^

[felix]

Originally Posted by Akka

No, that's actually completely impossible.
Automated anti-spoiler is simply not possible, it requires understanding the language, which no computer is capable of doing - not to speak of some PHP scripts ^^

Actually, I was referring to simply forcing any new posts to pass though moderation (there is already a system in place, just not at the thread/section scale). If you're a good scout (ie. your posts are approved X amount of times) you get put on a whitelist for a discussion so that next time your posts bypass the moderation, if you're bad scout you get put on a blacklist, which permanently bans you from the topic. (of course this would only apply for certain trouble forums/threads)

At the moment you only get infractions, or if the issue becomes heated, moderators tend to give out temporary bans (the key word here is "temporary"). None of these prevent people from either misunderstanding the rules (as discussed above), prevent the "victims" (you) from getting hurt, or the rest of us (who are somewhere in the middle) from getting caught in the crossfire.

As for implementing, it's not that hard to make really, since all the system would do is add another "you have insufficient rights" criteria. The only difficulty here would be how to integrate it to vBulletins current* authorization system (which I believe only works at the forum level). I'd like to think it's easier overall then somehow communicating with text to people that don't read, as well as to those of us that do read them but fail to get those "key lines" (see above discussion) in the tl;dr legal statement.

* probably not the best word, given the forum version we're using

[Dist]

I approve of what Felix suggested but honestly, wouldn't that increase the workload for moderators ? Atleast in the beginning when they need to approve lots of posts.

There's also something I'd like to suggest although it probably isn't possible but I'll ask anyway :

When using spoiler tags, would it be possible for it to require you to define what the spoiler is about before the message can be posted ? I've been spoiled at several occasions just because people don't always bother to write what the spoiler is about and if I look, it might be from manga/novel/game instead of the anime. This generally happens with series that don't have their own subforum so people hide their posts about the latest episode in spoiler tags.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Dist

When using spoiler tags, would it be possible for it to require you to define what the spoiler is about before the message can be posted ? I've been spoiled at several occasions just because people don't always bother to write what the spoiler is about and if I look, it might be from manga/novel/game instead of the anime. This generally happens with series that don't have their own subforum so people hide their posts about the latest episode in spoiler tags.

Well, we do require by policy that all spoiler tags be properly labeled; if someone didn't label their spoiler tag, you may report it. However, as I think I've mentioned before, even if we could technologically require people to put a label, that doesn't guarantee that the label people apply will be logical. For example, I still see a lot of spoilers like this:

Spoiler for spoiler:

Important stuff!

The whole point of the description is to be specific about what will be discussed so that people know whether it's safe to open the tag. But the fact that people seem to really suck at doing this (being considerate of others) is the reason why we had to adopt this new spoiler policy in the first place.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by felix

Actually, I was referring [...] statement.

Wow, nice concept. Would be a pain for the mod to use, so not really feasable unless you've got a large number of very dedicaced ones, but I like the idea.

[relentlessflame]

Regarding the whitelisting proposal, I want to say that the people who are most likely to violate the spoiler policy aren't typically new posters who don't know the rules. They're long-time posters who get too caught up in the discussion and don't remember that there are lines they should not cross. They think they're doing people a favour by correcting their premature judgements and wrong speculations because they want everyone else to be able to appreciate the show the way they do.

You've got the occasional troll, but I'd say 80%+ of the spoiler warnings/infractions I issue are for long-time forum members, and often when people have often been warned of the issue before. This is why I say the issue is failing to show consideration for others.

[Vexx]

With subforum series, the problem is easy to solve -- often there's a "spoilerific" thread created for posters who've seen the source material, etc etc.

The single thread series are the ones tougher to handle (and for me as well I have to remind myself all the time).

[felix]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Regarding the whitelisting proposal, I want to say that the people who are most likely to violate the spoiler policy aren't typically new posters who don't know the rules. They're long-time posters who get too caught up in the discussion and don't remember that there are lines they should not cross. They think they're doing people a favour by correcting their premature judgements and wrong speculations because they want everyone else to be able to appreciate the show the way they do.

I never said this spoiler system would apply to new members. I said you turn it on, and a whitelist/blacklist is created for that thread, or forum. If you're whitelisted in a series thread in Current Series, that does not mean you're whitelisted everywhere. You could even have whitelists be manual-only, so posts always pass though the system no matter what; unless it's very clear you have not read the manga/novel/etc and you would be added to the whitelist for convenience.

Originally Posted by Akka

Wow, nice concept. Would be a pain for the mod to use, so not really feasable unless you've got a large number of very dedicaced ones, but I like the idea.

It wouldn't be turned on for all threads and all forums. It's a last resort system. For my experience, there are sections that have spoilers or high enough alternative material that it is dangerous; and there are series that are 100% harmless. So assuming they turn it on, they actually want to check all posts (ie. do what they would do anyway - only people don't get spoiled in the process).

Also, like I said earlier it would be ideal to integrate it with the current system in vB; moderators (and above) get little check boxes next to post and also "select all" type checkboxes, so it's not that laborious to mass approve posts as it sounds.

---

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, we do require by policy that all spoiler tags be properly labeled; if someone didn't label their spoiler tag, you may report it. However, as I think I've mentioned before, even if we could technologically require people to put a label, that doesn't guarantee that the label people apply will be logical. For example, I still see a lot of spoilers like this:

Spoiler for spoiler:

Important stuff!

The whole point of the description is to be specific about what will be discussed so that people know whether it's safe to open the tag. But the fact that people seem to really suck at doing this (being considerate of others) is the reason why we had to adopt this new spoiler policy in the first place.

Long ago I created a alternative spoiler tag. One of the things I implemented was the ability to color-mark itself. It's a very simple idea, it looks at what it has, and if it find certain key words such as "plot", "dies", etc it would color itself red, otherwise it would be a innocent silver. I think there were a few other color combinations I used in a association with keywords, to differentiate things like "speculation" and the "hide me" functionality (so red would not lose its relevance due to false positives). The keywords it searches don't have to be so simple minded, for example you say a lot of nasty spoilers appear with the word "spoiler" or notitle at all, then simply mark those as dangerous.

If I remember right, I only scanned the title, but it's trivial to make it scan the entire text body.

[neothe0ne]

Apparently I received -16 reputation points for posting "nice spoilers". Is this really such a huge deal that negative reputation points need to be handed out to the guy who got spoiled?

All I did was hear on the news that a huge earthquake hit near Tokyo, so a friend told me some discussion on how reality and anime differ happened in the Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 thread.

Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet? Is it just because it was a short post? Because I've certainly posted much more controversial stuff about anime episodes that never got me -16 reputation points.

[Daniel E.]

This is not related directly to the spoiler policy per see, but it is something I have seen people complain in the past about, so I may as well clear this up here and now.

Originally Posted by neothe0ne

Apparently I received -16 reputation points for posting "nice spoilers". Is this really such a huge deal that negative reputation points need to be handed out to the guy who got spoiled?

All I did was hear on the news that a huge earthquake hit near Tokyo, so a friend told me some discussion on how reality and anime differ happened in the Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 thread.

Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet? Is it just because it was a short post? Because I've certainly posted much more controversial stuff about anime episodes that never got me -16 reputation points.

When you jump in the middle of a general thread of a show that has already ended, then you are in fact exposing yourself to spoilers, no if or buts about it. You cannot seriously expect people to hide everything behind spoiler tags once an episode has been subbed for such a long time, just because you suddenly feel like watching the show.

Oh, and bringing up facts about TM8 here does count as posting spoilers, so your post will be edited for that.

Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet?

Again, this was your fault. The show was already listed in the older series section, which is cleary marked as being one for shows that have already ended. If people are still spoiling themselves after this, then they only have themselves to blame for that.

And in case you are wondering.... then no, this is not the place to talk about reputation and any posts trying to further discuss this will be deleted. (if you still have questions about this, then do it through PM instead).

[felix]

Should telling people what is filler or that there is filler in a series considered a spoiler.