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Old 2010-11-19, 23:03   Link #141
relentlessflame
 
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We actually recently added a line to the Spoiler Policy to address this point:

Quote:
Regardless of these exceptions, any comment that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed is expressly forbidden whether or not it is behind spoiler tags.
Perhaps we could add an additional line after that which says "In other words, any spoiler that reveals future events, even under a spoiler tag, is forbidden." Which is just a more direct way of saying the same thing.

I don't think the issue is so much what the policy says, it's that people don't pay attention and let their first instincts take over. They just see that we have a spoiler tag, and think "as long as I use this tag I can spoil whatever I want" whereas the point of of the spoiler policy is actually the opposite: most spoilers are forbidden, but a few exceptions are okay inside the tags. That's what we try to convey through the wording, but the problem is that most other sites don't do it this way, so you have to fight people's instincts a bit.
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Old 2010-11-19, 23:32   Link #142
Falkor
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I think someone should also edit monir's post in order to reflect the change. I didn't notice this was actually included in the Forum FAQ (checking the forum guidelines seemed more intuitive for me).

I agree with you that the issue lies with the person posting the spoiler (and perhaps the people replying to them). maybe changing the name of the tag to something else might turn off that instinct, but that would create a different set of problems.
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Old 2010-11-20, 08:07   Link #143
Miles Teg
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
I'm thinking particularly of the Haruhi and FMP section last year - I can only offer "last year" because, due to massive spoilage about some crucial events from the novels, I didn't want to have a look thereafter, and I have completely abandonned them. Maybe the situation is better now.
About the FMP sub-forum, the anime has finished in 2006, but novel have continued to be made and translated in English so little by little the sub-forum has turn into a novel forum instead of an anime forum and when you had the fact that this sub-forum is unmoderated then you have novel spoiler everywhere.

So if you don't want to be spoiled then don't go to the sub-forum it's the only advice I can give

If a new anime series is announced the moderator will have a lot of work to make the regular of this sub-forum follow the rules
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Old 2010-11-21, 17:09   Link #144
Akka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
In a ideal world it would me more practical (and logical) to simply prevent people from being spoiled, when required. But that would mean keeping/generating blacklists/whitelists and periodically setting sections/threads to require-moderation before posts are published. Since this would require creating plugins, etc, we have no choice but to live with the handicap-system.
No, that's actually completely impossible.
Automated anti-spoiler is simply not possible, it requires understanding the language, which no computer is capable of doing - not to speak of some PHP scripts ^^

At best white/black lists may exist, but most spoilers don't rely on a single words, but rather on meanings.
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So if you don't want to be spoiled then don't go to the sub-forum it's the only advice I can give
Well, as I said, that's exactly what I did ^^
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Old 2010-11-21, 18:58   Link #145
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
No, that's actually completely impossible.
Automated anti-spoiler is simply not possible, it requires understanding the language, which no computer is capable of doing - not to speak of some PHP scripts ^^
Actually, I was referring to simply forcing any new posts to pass though moderation (there is already a system in place, just not at the thread/section scale). If you're a good scout (ie. your posts are approved X amount of times) you get put on a whitelist for a discussion so that next time your posts bypass the moderation, if you're bad scout you get put on a blacklist, which permanently bans you from the topic. (of course this would only apply for certain trouble forums/threads)

At the moment you only get infractions, or if the issue becomes heated, moderators tend to give out temporary bans (the key word here is "temporary"). None of these prevent people from either misunderstanding the rules (as discussed above), prevent the "victims" (you) from getting hurt, or the rest of us (who are somewhere in the middle) from getting caught in the crossfire.

As for implementing, it's not that hard to make really, since all the system would do is add another "you have insufficient rights" criteria. The only difficulty here would be how to integrate it to vBulletins current* authorization system (which I believe only works at the forum level). I'd like to think it's easier overall then somehow communicating with text to people that don't read, as well as to those of us that do read them but fail to get those "key lines" (see above discussion) in the tl;dr legal statement.

* probably not the best word, given the forum version we're using
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Old 2010-11-22, 13:34   Link #146
Dist
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I approve of what Felix suggested but honestly, wouldn't that increase the workload for moderators ? Atleast in the beginning when they need to approve lots of posts.

There's also something I'd like to suggest although it probably isn't possible but I'll ask anyway :

When using spoiler tags, would it be possible for it to require you to define what the spoiler is about before the message can be posted ? I've been spoiled at several occasions just because people don't always bother to write what the spoiler is about and if I look, it might be from manga/novel/game instead of the anime. This generally happens with series that don't have their own subforum so people hide their posts about the latest episode in spoiler tags.
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Old 2010-11-22, 13:47   Link #147
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dist View Post
When using spoiler tags, would it be possible for it to require you to define what the spoiler is about before the message can be posted ? I've been spoiled at several occasions just because people don't always bother to write what the spoiler is about and if I look, it might be from manga/novel/game instead of the anime. This generally happens with series that don't have their own subforum so people hide their posts about the latest episode in spoiler tags.
Well, we do require by policy that all spoiler tags be properly labeled; if someone didn't label their spoiler tag, you may report it. However, as I think I've mentioned before, even if we could technologically require people to put a label, that doesn't guarantee that the label people apply will be logical. For example, I still see a lot of spoilers like this:

Spoiler for spoiler:

The whole point of the description is to be specific about what will be discussed so that people know whether it's safe to open the tag. But the fact that people seem to really suck at doing this (being considerate of others) is the reason why we had to adopt this new spoiler policy in the first place.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:40   Link #148
Akka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Actually, I was referring [...] statement.
Wow, nice concept. Would be a pain for the mod to use, so not really feasable unless you've got a large number of very dedicaced ones, but I like the idea.
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Old 2010-11-22, 16:15   Link #149
relentlessflame
 
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Regarding the whitelisting proposal, I want to say that the people who are most likely to violate the spoiler policy aren't typically new posters who don't know the rules. They're long-time posters who get too caught up in the discussion and don't remember that there are lines they should not cross. They think they're doing people a favour by correcting their premature judgements and wrong speculations because they want everyone else to be able to appreciate the show the way they do.

You've got the occasional troll, but I'd say 80%+ of the spoiler warnings/infractions I issue are for long-time forum members, and often when people have often been warned of the issue before. This is why I say the issue is failing to show consideration for others.
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Old 2010-11-22, 19:34   Link #150
Vexx
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With subforum series, the problem is easy to solve -- often there's a "spoilerific" thread created for posters who've seen the source material, etc etc.

The single thread series are the ones tougher to handle (and for me as well I have to remind myself all the time).
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Old 2010-11-23, 06:00   Link #151
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Regarding the whitelisting proposal, I want to say that the people who are most likely to violate the spoiler policy aren't typically new posters who don't know the rules. They're long-time posters who get too caught up in the discussion and don't remember that there are lines they should not cross. They think they're doing people a favour by correcting their premature judgements and wrong speculations because they want everyone else to be able to appreciate the show the way they do.
I never said this spoiler system would apply to new members. I said you turn it on, and a whitelist/blacklist is created for that thread, or forum. If you're whitelisted in a series thread in Current Series, that does not mean you're whitelisted everywhere. You could even have whitelists be manual-only, so posts always pass though the system no matter what; unless it's very clear you have not read the manga/novel/etc and you would be added to the whitelist for convenience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Wow, nice concept. Would be a pain for the mod to use, so not really feasable unless you've got a large number of very dedicaced ones, but I like the idea.
It wouldn't be turned on for all threads and all forums. It's a last resort system. For my experience, there are sections that have spoilers or high enough alternative material that it is dangerous; and there are series that are 100% harmless. So assuming they turn it on, they actually want to check all posts (ie. do what they would do anyway - only people don't get spoiled in the process).

Also, like I said earlier it would be ideal to integrate it with the current system in vB; moderators (and above) get little check boxes next to post and also "select all" type checkboxes, so it's not that laborious to mass approve posts as it sounds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Well, we do require by policy that all spoiler tags be properly labeled; if someone didn't label their spoiler tag, you may report it. However, as I think I've mentioned before, even if we could technologically require people to put a label, that doesn't guarantee that the label people apply will be logical. For example, I still see a lot of spoilers like this:

Spoiler for spoiler:

The whole point of the description is to be specific about what will be discussed so that people know whether it's safe to open the tag. But the fact that people seem to really suck at doing this (being considerate of others) is the reason why we had to adopt this new spoiler policy in the first place.
Long ago I created a alternative spoiler tag. One of the things I implemented was the ability to color-mark itself. It's a very simple idea, it looks at what it has, and if it find certain key words such as "plot", "dies", etc it would color itself red, otherwise it would be a innocent silver. I think there were a few other color combinations I used in a association with keywords, to differentiate things like "speculation" and the "hide me" functionality (so red would not lose its relevance due to false positives). The keywords it searches don't have to be so simple minded, for example you say a lot of nasty spoilers appear with the word "spoiler" or notitle at all, then simply mark those as dangerous.

If I remember right, I only scanned the title, but it's trivial to make it scan the entire text body.
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Old 2011-04-21, 01:27   Link #152
neothe0ne
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Apparently I received -16 reputation points for posting "nice spoilers". Is this really such a huge deal that negative reputation points need to be handed out to the guy who got spoiled?

All I did was hear on the news that a huge earthquake hit near Tokyo, so a friend told me some discussion on how reality and anime differ happened in the Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 thread.

Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet? Is it just because it was a short post? Because I've certainly posted much more controversial stuff about anime episodes that never got me -16 reputation points.
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Old 2011-04-21, 01:52   Link #153
Daniel E.
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This is not related directly to the spoiler policy per see, but it is something I have seen people complain in the past about, so I may as well clear this up here and now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neothe0ne View Post
Apparently I received -16 reputation points for posting "nice spoilers". Is this really such a huge deal that negative reputation points need to be handed out to the guy who got spoiled?

All I did was hear on the news that a huge earthquake hit near Tokyo, so a friend told me some discussion on how reality and anime differ happened in the Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 thread.

Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet? Is it just because it was a short post? Because I've certainly posted much more controversial stuff about anime episodes that never got me -16 reputation points.
When you jump in the middle of a general thread of a show that has already ended, then you are in fact exposing yourself to spoilers, no if or buts about it. You cannot seriously expect people to hide everything behind spoiler tags once an episode has been subbed for such a long time, just because you suddenly feel like watching the show.

Oh, and bringing up facts about TM8 here does count as posting spoilers, so your post will be edited for that.

Quote:
Really, -16 reputation points for possibly publicly warning anyone else who hadn't seen TM8 yet?
Again, this was your fault. The show was already listed in the older series section, which is cleary marked as being one for shows that have already ended. If people are still spoiling themselves after this, then they only have themselves to blame for that.

And in case you are wondering.... then no, this is not the place to talk about reputation and any posts trying to further discuss this will be deleted. (if you still have questions about this, then do it through PM instead).
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Old 2011-04-23, 11:51   Link #154
felix
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Should telling people what is filler or that there is filler in a series considered a spoiler.
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Old 2011-04-23, 20:50   Link #155
Vexx
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Should telling people what is filler or that there is filler in a series considered a spoiler.
What an individual might consider "filler" is so wildly variable - I'd say it conveys no useful information

(seen character development characterized as "filler" too many times...)
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Old 2011-04-23, 21:29   Link #156
relentlessflame
 
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The spoiler policy allows for "comparing events in an adaptation to the way they were presented in the source material or other adaptations" as long as it's behind clearly-marked spoiler tags. So as long as you're talking about things that have already been shown in the adaptation, it'd be okay to compare to the source material. So that sort of "was this in the source or not" conversation would be okay behind spoiler tags. But, on the other hand, you cannot use your knowledge of the source material to speculate about future events or things yet to be adapted. So you couldn't go into conversations about "next week's episode will be filler" or "next week's episode is back to the manga where such-and-such happens..." or whatever. That sort of conversation has to go to the appropriate source material thread.

I do agree with Vexx, though... I don't think most forumites could clearly articulate or agree on what "Filler" really is in the first place.
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Old 2011-04-24, 05:06   Link #157
felix
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
What an individual might consider "filler" is so wildly variable - I'd say it conveys no useful information
Interesting. Is the definition not simply “it has no bearing on the story, but we need the padding”, just like the typical type of filler? I guess the other two meanings are “material not in the original source(s)” and “things I hated”, but those are merely a consequence of the main definition or sub-group of it, the first being “the filler I noticed” (there’s always padding when you go from 2D to 3D). And the second, is simply a way of saying “I didn’t like the story(telling)” and filler there is just one argument and not a replacement term.

Of course when I mentioned filler earlier I was only using the term as a means of saying “giving information of what is canon and what is not”. Well anyway, issue resolved; I think.
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Old 2011-05-05, 11:16   Link #158
frubam
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I believe the spoiler policy dictates that no spoilers regarding future events from <media A> are to be posted within <media B>'s thread, even under spoiler tags. How does this policy affect threads of adaptations(usually LN/manga -> anime) that have just been revealed as an adaptation? To what extent, if any, are we allowed to discuss the adaptation's derived content w/o getting an infraction? Are spoiler-tagged posts containing future content allowed?

I ask this because I've seen this happen in some of the newly created threads. The Hidan no Aria thread SEEMED FILLED with various info hinting at what could be spoilers. That's really the only time I've seen it get THAT bad though.
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Old 2011-05-05, 15:44   Link #159
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Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I believe the spoiler policy dictates that no spoilers regarding future events from <media A> are to be posted within <media B>'s thread, even under spoiler tags. How does this policy affect threads of adaptations(usually LN/manga -> anime) that have just been revealed as an adaptation? To what extent, if any, are we allowed to discuss the adaptation's derived content w/o getting an infraction? Are spoiler-tagged posts containing future content allowed?
The Spoiler Policy itself addresses this pretty clearly, in particular in the list of exceptions. The long and short of it is that we don't allow "anything that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed". You're allowed to compare things that have already happened in the anime to the source material, but not reveal or leave hints about anything that will happen in the future, even behind spoiler tags. Offending posts will be deleted, and warnings/infractions issued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
I ask this because I've seen this happen in some of the newly created threads. The Hidan no Aria thread SEEMED FILLED with various info hinting at what could be spoilers. That's really the only time I've seen it get THAT bad though.
Please report any and all offending posts, and the mods will review and infract accordingly. The mods aren't necessarily following every show and reading every thread closely, so we're counting on user reports to help us out. But the principle is: no future-event spoilers and no hints, tags or not.
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Old 2011-09-20, 02:53   Link #160
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
You're allowed to compare things that have already happened in the anime to the source material, but not reveal or leave hints about anything that will happen in the future, even behind spoiler tags. Offending posts will be deleted, and warnings/infractions issued.
I'm just wondering: does this apply when an anime's finished? It's just that this has been and still is a huge problem in the Usagi Drop thread, where every few posts has someone referring to the 2nd half of the manga once again.

Apologies - I know you're probably quite sick of the issue, and there's no closing Pandora's Box for Usagi Drop anyway. But even though most of the offending posts were just warnings about a change in tone (and thus let be in the thread), it really did affect how I viewed the anime as it was airing, and I'd rather it not happen to anyone else for any other series...
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