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Old 2010-11-22, 10:55   Link #19001
Used Can
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Was there any information on which stakes were used during EP3 and on whom?
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Old 2010-11-22, 10:58   Link #19002
Renall
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Oh come on now you're going to claim he survived the self stabbing in arc 1 due to the hole never having healed and him being litterally able to put the stake through without suffering any additional damage.

... lol "the heart is important"...
I don't know, I'm just saying when Kanon dies on the board, or when Evil Kanon is attacked, he always seems to be harmed in the same place, even in instances where that doesn't happen to anyone else. In ep4, everyone - even Shannon - is shot in the head (well, except Maria). But Kanon is not. Kanon is the only individual purported to have a consistent injury every single time (Shannon suffers a head injury in 1, 2, and 4, but in 3 has a chest wound).
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Old 2010-11-22, 11:18   Link #19003
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Oh come on now you're going to claim he survived the self stabbing in arc 1 due to the hole never having healed and him being litterally able to put the stake through without suffering any additional damage.
Hey, it's possible that Yasu's heart is actually more to either side of his chest rather than the center. A rare condition, but not unheard of.

Furthermore, it's not the the wound never healed, but that it was too large to ever heal fully.

Renall has a point here; it's one of the few observable patterns within the Twilights. Maybe this really does have to symbolically do with THE HEART, given that Kanon, as a psychological construct, shouldn't have one.
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Old 2010-11-22, 11:18   Link #19004
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Well yeah it is sorta interesting, but I guess I'm just really not happy if Yasu turns out to be more self-satisfied emo villain then Sasuke, and making such a fuss about a scar is really ... that.

Guess anything's possible but ever since people decided that Yasu was nuts and thus anything goes, the theories about Yasu (and also George) ends up making Kyrie's theorical mass murder something 100 times more sane and sensible then Yasu's life.

I mean, heh, stillbirth vs ugly scar, which should traumatise you the most?

Concerning arc 3.

Rudolph - Asmodeus
Hideyoshi - Belzebub
Kyrie - Manmon (heh if Ange knew... could theorically count as a hint I guess?)
Krauss - Lucifer
Natsuhi - Satan

Leviathan was defeated supposedly by Kyrie and Belphegor by Rudolph.
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Old 2010-11-22, 11:20   Link #19005
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Leviathan was defeated supposedly by Kyrie and Belphegor by Rudolph.
I always thought this was because the writer had no idea what sin to assign to Maria and Rosa, given that one is sinless and the other has too many sins.
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Old 2010-11-22, 11:57   Link #19006
Used Can
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Concerning arc 3.

Rudolph - Asmodeus
Hideyoshi - Belzebub
Kyrie - Manmon (heh if Ange knew... could theorically count as a hint I guess?)
Krauss - Lucifer
Natsuhi - Satan
Thank you, but I have one question: Where did you get this information from? Does this information come from the game? I've seen this information in the Umineko Wiki, but I haven't found it in the game.
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Old 2010-11-22, 12:48   Link #19007
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Wow, the chest injury thing actually makes quite a lot of sense. If the wound does appear to go all the way to her heart... maybe that's why she feels she cannot love. Afterall, love comes from your heart, right...?

By the way, Maria seems to die due to neck related causes (strangled, swallowed poison, throat slit, decapitation) but I've no idea if this works for episode 7.
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Old 2010-11-22, 14:32   Link #19008
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Not everyone is shown dying in arc 7.

Guess in order for anyone who wishes to know.
1. Natsuhi killed by Eva
2. Krauss killed by Hideyoshi
(I'm going to say right after that everyone else after's death are somewhat suspicious as we are never told, except Rudolph and Kyrie, where exactly they get wounded/shot)
3. Rosa by Kyrie
4. Hideyoshi by Kyrie
5. Beatrice by Kyrie
6. Gohda by Kyrie
7. George by Rudolph
8. Jessica by Kyrie

After that Kyrie and Eva's conversation claims that "Maria and everyone else were also killed" tho it seems to specifically exclude Battler, who's fate is really unknown.

Eva kills Rudolph while he's supposedly waiting for Battler and then kills Kyrie in the rose garden.

Tho the wounds themselves are different they are all killed by gunshot, except for Jessica who's given the arc 1 first twilight face treatment, supposedly while still being alive.

Points to note :
- Kyrie mentions at one point where everyone is according to "her story", she never mentions Nanjo's location.
- Beatrice's body vanish between Kyrie's murder of her and the time Eva wakes up.
- Neither Rudolph nor Kyrie are very surprised about Eva still being alive. Yet Kyrie supposedly shot her while she was like a meter away from her.
- Eva calls her survival (twice) a miracle, in something shown to be us by Bernkastel, who constantly claims there is no such thing as a miracle, that those are always of someone's design.


Also about Kanon in arc 6, the meta version of him might've duel lost but the fantasy we've been shown on the gameboard died of suddenly ... become nothing but blood. It's not like this is any less true then Kanon's other deaths.

Heh what if the epitaph described Yasu's injuries tho?
.... "Gouge the head and kill"... means to refer to the lobotomy Yasu had to have after the accident, which explains magically all of her behavior.
(I am not seriously believing that).


Edit : @ Used Can
It's from the witch game record tip in arc 3.
Spoiler for Screenshots:

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-22 at 14:46.
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Old 2010-11-22, 14:39   Link #19009
Used Can
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Yasu's body seems to have a problem, but being blind is, most definitely, not it. If it was something like a scar, she would have noticed it from the very beginning. However, the issue at hand seems to be something that Genji and/or Nanjo told her at some point and which Yasu had no idea about. This issue made her come to the conclusion that "her body cannot love" - and this is how the furniture complex was born. If we go by the chest thing, we could say that, maybe, due to the fall, she ended up with a weak heart and her life-span became short. In fact, if Yasu is Nanjo's "granddaughter" then this would make sense.
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Old 2010-11-22, 14:55   Link #19010
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Knowing you'll die very young surely is a much better reason to flip out then having a silly scar.

Still there's something outright wrong with all of this.
Zepar and Furfur seems pretty clear that there's various situation where not just love is needed, the examples they gave saddly should've applied to Kinzo and Beato-2 but apparently didn't.

Overall I guess the whole speculation about Yasu has yet to address how come s/he can chose to become human, and how come Shannon and Kanon both had a chance.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:18   Link #19011
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If one were to die young though, all this talk about getting away from a place or becoming a complete human who can love forever is a bit disingenuous.

Unless it's one of those "live forever in my art" things.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:26   Link #19012
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Will Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch be the last Umineko episode?
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:29   Link #19013
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You know, it would be really weird if the thing about Kanon having a misplaced heart were true; I have that condition too, so if you stabbed me in the traditional heart area, you'd miss. Chalk it up to yet another point in what I have in common with Yasu.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:29   Link #19014
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Will Episode 8: Twilight of the Golden Witch be the last Umineko episode?
Yes it will... for now...
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:33   Link #19015
Used Can
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Thanks for the clarification regarding the stake usage. Now, this makes me wondering if there's any meaning to them. One thing I've noticed is that, so far, 2 different stakes have never been used on the same person. Well, so far, only 4 people have been staked more than once, and it has only happened twice to each of them:

Kanon: Satan (Wrath)
Hideyoshi: Beelzebub (Gluttony)
Nanjo: Belphegor (Sloth)
Kumasawa: Leviathan (Envy)

As for the rest, they've only been staked once.

Asmodeous (Lust): Eva, Jessica, Rudolph
Mammon (Greed): Kinzo, Shannon, Kyrie
Lucifer (Pride): Genji, George, Krauss
Beelzebub (Gluttony): Gohda
Satan (Wrath): Natsuhi

I find it funny that, Kyrie is associated with Beelzebub (Envy), but the stake she got was Mammon - which tends to be Ange's closest friend.
All the same, I wonder, if the guys who got staked only once would get staked again, would they get the same stake? Four people did, so I wonder if that's the trend.

Something else I noticed is that, although there doesn't seem to be a specific order for the stakes, Asmodeous is always used 1st and Mammon is always the 3rd to be used.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:38   Link #19016
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Yasu's body seems to have a problem, but being blind is, most definitely, not it. If it was something like a scar, she would have noticed it from the very beginning. However, the issue at hand seems to be something that Genji and/or Nanjo told her at some point and which Yasu had no idea about. This issue made her come to the conclusion that "her body cannot love" - and this is how the furniture complex was born. If we go by the chest thing, we could say that, maybe, due to the fall, she ended up with a weak heart and her life-span became short. In fact, if Yasu is Nanjo's "granddaughter" then this would make sense.
I think it's probably both things. At any rate if Yasu suffered from a wound so grave that made her heart so weak that she would die several years after it is only normal to suppose she has a very bad scar.

Certainly though... this looks more and more like the Iron Man backstory.
Well we do have Iron Maidens...

@UsagiTempura
I don't think that the wound is what actually made Yasu flip, the only hint that suggest that is a single flashback memory, but as for the rest it was stressed out that the main reason of Yasu's tragedy was a combination of several factors:

-Becoming the new head
-The love duel (whatever that means)
-Battler coming back

With the latter being the last straw. The wound is most probably one of those factors, but it was never outright stated.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:50   Link #19017
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I think loneliness was the biggest factor. She was always alone back in Fukuin and the other servants didn't treat her very well, due to the special treatment she received - I guess Genji is not that good at common sense, but well, in Umineko, no one seems to be good at it anyway. Battler's sin, in my opinion, was giving Yasu empty hope. Had she not revived that from him, she'd probably have been able to cope with everything just fine. However, because of Battler, she developed expectations for the future - good ones. However, little by little these expectations seemed to be further away, and eventually, when Battler didn't send a letter to her, she realised Battler wouldn't keep his promise and she finally started giving up.

I don't think becoming the head was a factor. The information she received about Kinzo being her father, and how her life had basically been controlled to some degree by Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo did seem to affect her, though - especially considering how much she wanted to be able to have control over her own life. All the same, she seemed to have dealt with all this information in a rather rational way.

Whatever made her unstable took place during 1985, and the scene with her flipping out after finding out something about her body is probably one of these factors. I wonder, though, what other factors could have taken place during 1985 - that have already been hinted in all these games - that pushed her to do all these things.
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Old 2010-11-22, 15:54   Link #19018
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Ah, when I say flip, I mean the source of his/her furniture complex, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Tho go be honest the three reasons you named are by themselves pretty much useless. Yasu's given a chance to become the head, could easily turn it down or accept it. In fact his/her "dream existence" is Lion, the accepted heir. If Yasu's flipping out cause s/he wanted to be born the accepted heir and isn't... cry baby cry. None of us can even dream of such a thing and we don't (hopefully) have the same issues Yasu has.

The love duel is basically Yasu loving 3 people at once, again his/her own problem, nothing really dramatic there, we've all been teens and didn't plan to murder 18 people and commit suicide in the process.

Battler coming back is the silliest thing out there. Shannon could've asked Jessica his number and/or address and call him/visit him. Ah so easy to blame the guy for not taking the initiative.

So to put it differently, sounds like you're telling me Yasu's flipping out because she's a teen.

Again, Maria's life appears a thousand times worst then Yasu's. Hell who does s/he thinks s/he is lecturing Battler about leaving his family? All I'm seeing in these Yasu theories is self-justified insane melodrama.

That saddly doesn't even mean it's wrong. Still even in Higurashi, even without the Hinamizawa disease, people had better reasons to kill then what these Yasu theories claims.

Edit : Most things people seem to think are the reasons of Yasu's ... uh unstability and drastic decisions are things she have been shown to deal in either a very mature way or a very Maria's diary way of things. Whatever was that memory with Genji, Nanjo and Yasu about, is the one thing that really made her flip out we've been shown.

Not like I'm able to suggest how it lead to the current scenario, but 1985, the important event is Kinzo's death, and whatever followed. Oh and Gohda was hired. That's it. Gohda is the reason Yasu's murdering everyone.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-22 at 16:18.
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Old 2010-11-22, 16:44   Link #19019
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I'm still firmly unconvinced of guilt. It's such a pity party "Blame me! Blame me!" thing just like Beatrice was pulling.
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Old 2010-11-22, 17:10   Link #19020
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I don't know about Yasu having a misplaced heart, that gunshot would have still probably hit it and the blood loss would still be unbearable even if it missed his/her heart. All s/he could have done, at most, was turn the bomb on and find a nice quiet place to die.
I believe Eva's miracles and some other parts of the story that didn't quite add up were horrible fill-ins on Bernkastel's part. She could think of no other way Eva could survive an encounter with Kyrie.
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