AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-11-22, 17:36   Link #19021
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Even with her mixed martial arts abilities...?
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 17:46   Link #19022
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Martial artists themselves admit guns beat martial arts.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 17:48   Link #19023
Mikachiru
test
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I find it funny that, Kyrie is associated with Beelzebub (Envy), but the stake she got was Mammon - which tends to be Ange's closest friend.
All the same, I wonder, if the guys who got staked only once would get staked again, would they get the same stake? Four people did, so I wonder if that's the trend.
Oh Can, you're so silly. Beelzebub isn't a crybaby. She's hungry. <3
__________________
Mikachiru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 17:49   Link #19024
Leafsnail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
Martial artists themselves admit guns beat martial arts.
It is true, but you could probably construct some kind of situation...
Leafsnail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 17:55   Link #19025
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Better than just a miracle miss, twice? I don't know...
There are many scenarios one could come up with that could make a better truth than what we saw. Bernkastel didn't want to be right, I think she wanted one of two other things. To be seen as right or to bring Battler back into the game. Though, I am not sure her and Battler will have any interaction in episode 8.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 18:02   Link #19026
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
It is true, but you could probably construct some kind of situation...
Baritsu.

Illusion to illusion.

The Adventure of The Empty House.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 18:30   Link #19027
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
"theories about the truth" vs "interpreted truth"
Blue vs Gold.
Bernkastel vs Battler.
In the human world, there is no such thing as the red text.

Personally I do hope we'd get that.

Edit : Why does everyone think the tea party "arc" is an arc made by Bern? She's pretty adamant she's not the gamemaster.
If there's any "game master" of this "arc" I'd say it's Eva Beatrice.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 18:52   Link #19028
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I think loneliness was the biggest factor. She was always alone back in Fukuin and the other servants didn't treat her very well, due to the special treatment she received - I guess Genji is not that good at common sense, but well, in Umineko, no one seems to be good at it anyway. Battler's sin, in my opinion, was giving Yasu empty hope. Had she not revived that from him, she'd probably have been able to cope with everything just fine. However, because of Battler, she developed expectations for the future - good ones. However, little by little these expectations seemed to be further away, and eventually, when Battler didn't send a letter to her, she realised Battler wouldn't keep his promise and she finally started giving up.

I don't think becoming the head was a factor. The information she received about Kinzo being her father, and how her life had basically been controlled to some degree by Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo did seem to affect her, though - especially considering how much she wanted to be able to have control over her own life. All the same, she seemed to have dealt with all this information in a rather rational way.

Whatever made her unstable took place during 1985, and the scene with her flipping out after finding out something about her body is probably one of these factors. I wonder, though, what other factors could have taken place during 1985 - that have already been hinted in all these games - that pushed her to do all these things.
This also parallels my life nearly perfectly. It's because of that which makes me absolutely confident in the fact that Yasu didn't do it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 19:08   Link #19029
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's begging for scapegoating, which largely falls in line with Beatrice's motives generally: "Believe in me so you don't have to believe in your family destroying itself.'
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 19:14   Link #19030
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Heh if Beato is the new Oyashiro-Sama I'm personally going to be dissapointed. It simply lacks originality for Ryukishi to use again the same plot twice.

Also I'm pretty certain Yasu is the culprit in arc 1-2-4, and even most likely in 3 as well.
Within the context of these arcs being mystery stories on their own, they do need a culprit, and a motive for these crimes.

It's entirely possible that on Rokkenjima Prime there is simply no culprit.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 19:31   Link #19031
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Heh if Beato is the new Oyashiro-Sama I'm personally going to be dissapointed. It simply lacks originality for Ryukishi to use again the same plot twice.

Also I'm pretty certain Yasu is the culprit in arc 1-2-4, and even most likely in 3 as well.
Within the context of these arcs being mystery stories on their own, they do need a culprit, and a motive for these crimes.

It's entirely possible that on Rokkenjima Prime there is simply no culprit.
Except, you see, on either side of the spectrum he would be reusing the plot like you say. Whether it be the supernatural aspect or the tragic twins aspect. Even the sin could be rehash. Therefore you have no point.

IMO scapegoating isn't as convoluted since his stories have a theme of supernatural means vs human means. One could expect that trope to be consistent with his writing style instead of being directly lifted.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-11-22 at 19:46.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 19:48   Link #19032
UsagiTenpura
Echo of Noise
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Send a message via Skype™ to UsagiTenpura
Being disappointed isn't making a point so I wholly agree with you there. Even with it being true I still think the Shkanon thing is far fetched.

Tho I can see plenty of ways where Beato's situation wouldn't be disappointing to me, will need arc 8 to have that opinion. Even so I get the feeling a lot about the whole thing will be left to personal interpretation.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 20:06   Link #19033
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Well, if the EP7 tea party does tell the story of Ange's world, and that does happen to be Rokkenjima Prime, then it looks as though Yasu never got the chance to be the killer in real life. So, we'll never know if she had a motive strong enough to kill, just that she had one strong enough that she wanted to kill, and wrote fictional stories about how she would do so.

We know from the middle of EP7 that, at one point in her life, she was so involved with her imaginary world that she almost quit being a servant to live the rest of her life in that imaginary world. It was only falling in love with Battler that made her decide not to 'stop being a human', which seems like becoming a shut-in at best and suicide at worst.

We see how this happens. Since she has no friends, her imaginary world takes up more and more of her life. Then, the few friends she makes actually treat that imaginary world as if it was real. Then, she finds out how exciting it it to make people unwittingly believe in her imaginary world (key trick).

In other words, Yasu really is a messed up kid, who spends more time in his/her imaginary world than in reality. That's why you have to go back as far as Lion to get a truly happy person (before Kyrie or whoever kills him/her).

Still, I don't think the fact that Yasu is messed up makes it any less interesting of a puzzle. If anything, it makes for a much more challenging motive to figure out. If the main puzzle is supposed to be the 'why dunnit', this makes for a much more complex puzzle than any permutation of money, love, or twisted ideals could cover.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 20:12   Link #19034
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Being disappointed isn't making a point so I wholly agree with you there. Even with it being true I still think the Shkanon thing is far fetched.

Tho I can see plenty of ways where Beato's situation wouldn't be disappointing to me, will need arc 8 to have that opinion. Even so I get the feeling a lot about the whole thing will be left to personal interpretation.
I hope things aren't left to interpretation, things should be left completely resolved and in an interview RK07 stated that everything will be answered in ep8. I hope that most of the things in EP6 and EP7 are just false recreations of the events to try and lure us away from the answer.

I mean, it feels like RK07 created the basis of the games in the first 4 episodes with just enough red herrings for people to go wild with theories. Then he picked some of them and made them into recreations, in that sense we are the Witch Hunt.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 20:23   Link #19035
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Edit : Why does everyone think the tea party "arc" is an arc made by Bern? She's pretty adamant she's not the gamemaster.
If there's any "game master" of this "arc" I'd say it's Eva Beatrice.
Because even Hachijou in EP6 claimed that her stories were "the truth" and in Ep7 Bern is working to show "the truth" to Featherinne.

The quotation marks I'm using here do not come from my initiative or from a biased perspective, it's something you can find in the actual story when Will refers to what Bern has just shown.

Simply put, I think Featherinne has a distorted view of what is the truth, and Bern is simply adopting that view as her miko. In a way, that means Bern has never been the true Game Master because she's actually showing what Featherinne wants to see and not what she herself wants to show.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 20:48   Link #19036
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Heh if Beato is the new Oyashiro-Sama I'm personally going to be dissapointed. It simply lacks originality for Ryukishi to use again the same plot twice.
Well, if we're going to go that route, then Ryukishi lacks originality for doing the "people dying in a timeloop" thing again. It was obvious that Beatrice was a scapegoat from the get-go, because the only options that actually exist is "Beatrice is a scapegoat" or "A witch actually did it."

You have no one but yourself to blame for being disappointed. Besides, he's not rehashing a plot, he's continuing a meta-arc through a different means. This is exactly why Umineko is a sequel in the first place. When They Cry, as a franchise, is about the fallacies of sacrifice and martyrdom, and personal responsibility for someone's actions. It's also about understanding, trust, and giving the benefit of the doubt. It's about seeing people for what they are without hurtful, judgemental bias.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 21:05   Link #19037
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
I've never really understood the argument that continuing a few elements is the same as rehashing. I think it's pretty obvious by now that Umineko is completely different from Higurashi in structure, characters, how the story is told, and how the answers are given. It's part of the When They Cry series, so it makes sense for a few things to carry through. In fact, if things to hold true to both series but we haven't recognized them yet, I think that means Ryuukishi's an even better writer for keeping the obvious from us for so long.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 21:15   Link #19038
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I hope things aren't left to interpretation, things should be left completely resolved and in an interview RK07 stated that everything will be answered in ep8. I hope that most of the things in EP6 and EP7 are just false recreations of the events to try and lure us away from the answer.
I don't think it's possible that he could have stated that because he didn't even mention an Ep8 until Ep7 was finished. Many people thought he was going to end it with episode 7 since he stated he wanted to end it "this year" (2010) in an interview. And since then all we've heard about Episode 8's contents in his interviews is that it has choices and that you play as a certain character.

I think you're think of something he said about Episode 7 where he said "[after reading it] people should go back to all the previous episodes and enjoy how early the foreshadowing begins"
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 21:19   Link #19039
Cao Ni Ma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
I see it the other way around, I think RK07 made this knowing that we where aware of Higurashi and is actively playing on this. We trusted Bern for the most part because she looked like Rika and where wary of Lambda because she looked like Takano. If you didn't see the possibility that Shannon/Kanon could be the same person by the second OP its probably because you didn't know about Shion/Mion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I don't think it's possible that he could have stated that because he didn't even mention an Ep8 until Ep7 was finished. Many people thought he was going to end it with episode 7 since he stated he wanted to end it "this year" (2010) in an interview. And since then all we've heard about Episode 8's contents in his interviews is that it has choices and that you play as a certain character.

I think you're think of something he said about Episode 7 where he said "[after reading it] people should go back to all the previous episodes and enjoy how early the foreshadowing begins"
It was after EP7 came out, it was the same blog entry that stated he had started writing EP8. Also he was clear that ep 5-8 would exist. The reason why people where satisfied with ep6 and ep7 endings is that they are in a sense finishing certain elements of the story. Re-reading the info it looks like we wont be given a clear cut answer but we chose how the story will end.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-22 at 21:35.
Cao Ni Ma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-11-22, 21:48   Link #19040
SonozakiUshiromiya
Reading your tale. :)
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Just out of sight, eating popcorn. >:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Isn't Kanon always killed by a chest wound?

ep1, he's staked in the chest.
ep2, he's run through.
ep3, all the victims have chest wounds.
ep4, the rocket blows a hole in his chest.

The only instance in which Kanon "dies" through any other kind of injury is when Shannon headshots him in ep6's duel, and that's more of a spiritual injury than a purported physical one.
Wait, wasn't he shot in the stomach?
EDIT: I meant in ep 3. Sorry for not clarifying.
__________________
SonozakiUshiromiya is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.