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Old 2010-11-26, 10:27   Link #1701
Used Can
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Do you think how the Twilights were done will be explained thoroughly in EP8? We supposedly went through that in EP7, but some answers were far too cryptic and some were even skipped. EP1 is basically fully explained. I think EP7 wasn't even needed for that one. However, events like EP2's 4th, 5th and 6th Twilights are still rather difficult to explain. In addition, events like Dr. Nanjo's death were even skipped in EP7. The info given by Will for most of EP4 was far too cryptic to even begin to compare it with most theories I've made for that episode, I think. Even going with ShKanonTrice many of these closed rooms are rather hard to explain, or, at the very least, the explanations I've been able to come up with do not really satisfy me.
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Old 2010-11-26, 10:37   Link #1702
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Do you think how the Twilights were done will be explained thoroughly in EP8? We supposedly went through that in EP7, but some answers were far too cryptic and some were even skipped. EP1 is basically fully explained. I think EP7 wasn't even needed for that one. However, events like EP2's 4th, 5th and 6th Twilights are still rather difficult to explain. In addition, events like Dr. Nanjo's death were even skipped in EP7. The info given by Will for most of EP4 was far too cryptic to even begin to compare it with most theories I've made for that episode, I think. Even going with ShKanonTrice many of these closed rooms are rather hard to explain, or, at the very least, the explanations I've been able to come up with do not really satisfy me.
I'd take EP7 with a grain of salt, chances are its just the final false recreations of this story before everything is answered. I originally thought that everything would be plainly answered in the last game but RK07 started saying that you could alter the events in EP8 via choices so maybe we get to choose what really happened and are giving an ending based on those decisions.
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Old 2010-11-26, 10:45   Link #1703
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The problem is R07 did say EP6 and EP7 would contain most answers. Of course, whilst I don't take everything EP7 showed us at face value, I do trust a good amount of Will's inspections, along with with the scene in which he was solving the closed rooms.

As for EP8, all R07 said was that there'd be options and bad ends as well. He never said we'd be able to choose what happened this way. If that were to happen, whilst I cannot say I've wasted my time with this game, since I've had a lot of fun with it, I'd be terribly disappointed. But, either way, I don't think we'll have a "choose your truth" type of ending. In fact, in one of the screens we were shown for EP8, it was said that the truth in the catbox is only one and nothing can alter it. So, even if we're allowed to reach certain ends, I'm think they'll probably be nothing more than fictional ends.
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Old 2010-11-26, 13:06   Link #1704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post

If they really are the same person then you would need family members as accomplices trough out the games, Hideyoshi would have to lie about what he saw in EP1 (Possible Kanon could have been threating him in that scene without us knowing), the chapel scene in EP2 has Rosa witnessing both of them together so that would mean that she's an unreliable witness, same thing happens with Gohda in that very episode. EP3 would have have her switch between clothings and locking herself as Kanon inside the chapel and hoping no one notices anything, either that or the witnesses are unreliable and there was no one inside the chapel or the parlor.
Well, I don't particularly like Shkanon theory either. But your arguments could me explained with " we can only believe in what the detective sees".

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
As I said before, it would be a bigger surprise in the final game for them to be two different people and then solving the closed rooms etc without revolving around name/persona tricks and the like. Given the possibility of branching endings in EP8 I think there could be something for everyone.
I would be ecstatic if R07 explained successfully everything without the Skanon theory.
(It would be hard to explain the metaphorical meaning of the game that Zepar and Furfur held on EP6, but it can have no meaning whatsoever.)

I want to read the second patch for the 7th game, that way I'll be able to sustain the theories I believe in.

We will meet again soon.
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Old 2010-11-26, 14:24   Link #1705
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is explained in EP7 that Lion is supposed to inherit the title directly after Kinzo, and Krauss would be at best a temporary head until Lion becomes an adult.
Yes this is strange and Will points this out but that's how it is in the world where Lion exists.
There are probably several reasons for this:
  • Age. Krauss is quite old and installing a competent head as early as 20ish means he can be the head much longer. This sort of thing is theoretically possible in royal succession (for instance in England it was at one point suggested that if Elizabeth lived long enough, they might pass over Charles in favor of his son William, or if Charles died before his mother etc.).
  • Preference. Since Lion is presumed to be the child of Beatrice and thus Kinzo's favorite, skipping Krauss for his "son" is perfectly understandable.
  • Belief in Krauss's incompetence. Let's face it, Kinzo's never had good things to say about his four main children and Krauss's poor business sense seems to back that up. Lion is portrayed in his own world as an intensely charismatic and diplomatic person who is basically guaranteed to succeed. Why let Krauss spend 20-30 years running the family into the ground?
Basically, Krauss is the trustee of the Ushiromiya Group until Lion reaches maturity, at which time Lion will attain both the assets and the controlling role. You could think of Krauss in Lion's timeline as being like Okonogi in Ange's.
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Old 2010-11-26, 15:00   Link #1706
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Yeah of course, I think it's obvious that Kinzo wants Lion to be the heir because he's Beatrice's son, and he'd rather have the fruit of his true love be his successor than anyone else.

What I meant to say with "strange" is that it's beyond the normal succession rules.
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Old 2010-11-26, 23:37   Link #1707
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I wonder...

I brought this up before EP6, that the succession could be following the succession pattern of the patriarchs of the Jewish people. Namely, Isaac, Jacob and Benjamin. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had originally intended that the eldest of their sons would become the family head but instead it always ended up that their youngest son became the family head. Usually some kind of strange thing would happen and that it could be interpreted that God had intended for His people to follow different succession rites compared to other people at that time.


I was speculating that Battler may have been picked to become the next head simply because he is the youngest male of the cousins...

But if you think about Lion, at first I thought that he wasn't the youngest of everything. He's kind of younger than George but older than Jessica and Battler, right?

No... he IS the youngest (if he was male) son of Kinzo! Thanks to Kinzo's "Love-the-whole-family-can-enjoy" action.

... hmm...
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Old 2010-11-27, 00:11   Link #1708
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I can see it now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by totally relevant
Pretty sneaky, sis.
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Old 2010-11-27, 00:42   Link #1709
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
No... he IS the youngest (if he was male) son of Kinzo! Thanks to Kinzo's "Love-the-whole-family-can-enjoy" action.

... hmm...

Oh, so Kanon, the inbred son of Kinzo, inheritance theory lives then? Awesome!
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Old 2010-11-27, 01:27   Link #1710
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You'd think someone who cares so little for family connections and positions inherited through merit of birth like Kinzo wouldn't actually go looking for a special blood relative when anyone would do and be funnier besides.
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Old 2010-11-27, 02:55   Link #1711
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This situation makes me realize we've sorta stumbled into a reverse "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" situation, because nearly everything we "know" about him (before arc 7, not that it can't include arc 7 as well) seems to be wrong, we're left to a blank state where anything goes again, as long as it's not ridiculously epic.

A certain screenshot could be interpreted as showing that Kinzo actually cares about blood ties more then we were led to believe.
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Old 2010-11-27, 02:59   Link #1712
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I think it's conceivable that he is really concerned about blood ties until that blood lineage died out.

i.e. he wanted very much for the Beatrice line to take over the family, but when it died out (in the non-Lion worlds) he didn't care at all anymore.

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Oh, so Kanon, the inbred son of Kinzo, inheritance theory lives then? Awesome!
It all fits... rather than not existing, he DOES exist but no one acknowledges it. And so he doesn't exist. They keep him in the basement and feeds him roly-poly fish heads. 8)
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Old 2010-11-27, 03:26   Link #1713
Used Can
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
nearly everything we "know" about him (before arc 7, not that it can't include arc 7 as well) seems to be wrong
Was it? Before EP7 we knew:

1. Kinzo was a genius. I don't think EP7 contradicted this.
2. He's a strict father. Again, EP7 didn't contradict this - at least, not with the siblings we know. EP7 did give us an exception which is Yasu/Lion.
3. He had some relationship with Beatrice in the past. EP7 explained this.
4. Kinzo, for some reason, wanted forgiveness from Beatrice. EP7 explained this as well.

So, I don't think the information we had about Kinzo was wrong. We simply didn't know much about him, and EP7 told us about his past. I guess you can say we know him better.
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Old 2010-11-27, 03:34   Link #1714
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Nothing's been contradicted, really. Facts have just been put into a new light without actually changing them.
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Old 2010-11-27, 03:45   Link #1715
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I actually completely disagree with this, but since every Kinzo is a completely fictional character I really have nothing I can point to as a bedrock since it's all equally biased.
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Old 2010-11-27, 03:49   Link #1716
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In spirit I technically agree with you, but since the characterization and facts given about him are so nebulous and ephemeral, fictionalization aside, nothing really contradicts at all.
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Old 2010-11-27, 05:14   Link #1717
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I don't really follow you guys.

This is basically a "You can't trust anything, anything could be a lie, therefore any theory goes!"


This is no reasoning.
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Old 2010-11-27, 05:50   Link #1718
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I guess I failed to explain what I meant, I'll try again.

What we we led to believe about Kinzo through most of the arcs was the genius "epic Kinzo" that we all doubted was really credible but we didn't know to which extent. Arc 7 encourages us to mostly discard that vision...

However what we did know outside of that epic Kinzo, although mostly consistent (I really am not clear about his feeling for his family) is very little knowledge in the end. For what we learned in arc 7, it's mostly "a certain version of his story with Beatrice".

That isn't enough to be certain of much, so actually from what I see as results most theories concerning Kinzo are still valid outside of the most ridiculously epic ones (and then again, with the bomb thing even that much is hard to discard). So I feel like ultimately for all we were told about Kinzo and how much the idea of "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" is one nearly everyone want to reject, we're still basically left to speculate about most issues concerning him just as much as before.

I am not trying to say that all the information about Kinzo is all false, but more that most issues/theories are still left unsettled. For instance the idea that Yasu might not be really Beato-2's child.
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Old 2010-11-27, 08:15   Link #1719
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
What we we led to believe about Kinzo through most of the arcs was the genius "epic Kinzo" that we all doubted was really credible but we didn't know to which extent. Arc 7 encourages us to mostly discard that vision...
How were we told to discard that vision? Kinzo still achieved all the things he did. That hasn't changed. However, it isn't as if Kinzo came out of his mother's vagina riding a rocket while going all "BWAHAAHAHAHA...!". There's more to him than just the genius we knew. All the same, we knew he was flawed, even before EP7. To begin with, it's been made clear he was a very shitty parent. We also knew about the Beatrice he kept in Kuwadorian. We even saw him crying many, many times. Hell, there was even the idea he might have even raped Beatrice and not many went around saying that their view on Kinzo had changed - I'm not saying there weren't people opposing the idea of rape. All EP7 did was to give us information on how Kinzo ended up becoming the fortune raiser, empire builder we knew him as.
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Old 2010-11-27, 09:38   Link #1720
Yoru no Uta
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I actually completely disagree with this, but since every Kinzo is a completely fictional character I really have nothing I can point to as a bedrock since it's all equally biased.
Have you ever heard the phrase " Even though the body perishes, the soul lives on".
It's precisely whatīs occurs in the game. You donīt have to trust that disillusion of Kinzo. When his descendants talk about him, they always transmit the idea of Raging Lion. He is the Alfa to whom all they obey, to whom all their fear, and to whom they come running when they need help (this one is a little tricky though).
Do you think that fictional Kinzo you talk about is much different from the Kinzo his child's fear. Obviously the real Kinzo may be more docile (the servants don't arbor any resentful feelings for him, but then again they are servants) however, the way is depicted is the way he treats his family.
If you still say this biased, it gets me wondering if the real Kinzo is completely the opposite (suddenly and image of Kinzo dancing In the middle of a flower field pops in my head).
If you still wish to doubt that, beliefs cannot be contradicted, only ideas.

One thing that truly tore me apart was this phrase:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You'd think someone who cares so little for family connections and positions inherited through merit of birth like Kinzo wouldn't actually go looking for a special blood relative when anyone would do and be funnier besides.
Pardon my lack of manners, but have you truly pondered on what have you written. If yes, I would like to require you to answer the following questions.

What's Kinzo been doing in his studio, that made Jessica complain about the smell that persisted in the house after his experiences? Was it the bombs that would blow Rokkenjima and kill his family in the near future? Or was he trying to revive is most beloved person ( oh wait, he did not care for family relationships se would not be trying to revive is mistress, since stating here "is truly beloved" would be wrong, or his child)?
Kinzo did not inherited is post as the head family, he was forced to serve has decoy, so all the members of his family could act like vultures in the background, getting any riches left in the family line, for themselves.
Since he did not care for blood relations, why does he treat Leon so well? Isn't she one more of those incompetents that are inside the building is currently in??
Why bother to make her the head of the family, anyone that could solve the epitaph "was good to go" to take his position, why bother?


Once again, I beg your pardon for the lack of manners.
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