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Old 2010-11-29, 05:36   Link #19181
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'd also like to point out that Eva herself despite her flaunted martial arts prowess was easily pinned by Krauss in EP5.
I would take all the kung fu stuff with a grain of salt.
But let's be fair. It's Krauss.
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Old 2010-11-29, 06:00   Link #19182
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Battler's sin was long hinted to be a promise, the problem is that ep7 comes out of the blue and makes it a conditional promise, which mucks up everything. It's no longer Battler saying "I will do x" and then not doing x; that at least is an obvious "sin" because it's a promise to do something that isn't followed up on.

However, it's in the form of "when you do y, I will do x." Nothing prior to ep7 suggests this specifically, but neither is such a thing discounted. The problem here is that it absolves Battler of partial responsibility for the sin. Until Yasu does y, he's under no obligation to do x. The only way she can really force him into a position where he can "break his promise" is to perform her end of the bargain and make him somehow aware of it. That is, if the actual act of breaking the promise is in fact the sin, and not making it to begin with or somesuch. There have been other proposals I won't go into, just pointing out that there are several.

So the issue here is, why did Ryukishi set things up this way? People had already basically guessed the context of the promise. And it seemed to make sense. Throwing in a conditional is mucking up his own narrative. I can't think that was an accident as it takes an extra step of thinking about the "sin" to even complicate a promise that way. So what the deal, man?
This is actually the first time I think I understand what the issue is.

I think Ryukishi may have fallen into the "If I'm going to make fanon, canon I have to add depth to it" trap. He probably wanted to make her seem deep, and add conflict to their stories. But when there is sufficient conflict already there adding more to it makes it worse.

Maybe the fans will try and reinvent it and it will change in the Manga? I don't know.
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Old 2010-11-29, 06:13   Link #19183
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The cause of Hinamizawa's destruction was covered up, not the destruction itself. And the various deaths prior to 1983 probably weren't covered up anymore then the already hadbeen. As for the supernatural timey wimey ball, I'll admit that the events of Matsuribayashi-hen can not take place in the same world as Umineko. However, one of the other arcs could have.
...so, again, in what way is Higurashi a noteworthy event if it was just covered up? Some people died of a plague, and someone writes a novel about time travel and magic and gods and stuff?

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I don't pretend to understand Ryukishi07's motives. But, if the in-universe Higurashi is like ours then Battler's failure to notice that Bern strongly resembles a fictional character is rather odd, as is the presence of Okonogi.
It's the Meta-World for a reason. Battler doesn't have to behave reasonably or logically, only in the way that the writer needs him to act. Alternatively, he does notice, since vague allusions are made, but there are way bigger issues on his plate.

As for Okonogi, Battler never met him, did he?

Quote:
She thought it would be a good name for a mystery novel, and it would also serve as a hint that it wasn't a completely true story.

Just to be clear, by "events of Higurashi" I mean the events of one arc of Higurashi, not every arc or some hypothetical Hinamizawa-prime.

I'll add another possibility.

4) The events of Higurashi happened in the Umineko universe. Furthermore, the Higurashi Battler read was identical to what we read (except it was a standard novel rather then a series of visual novels). The author was a witch who was able to find out about events that happened in other universes using her witch magic.
Obviously none of those are acceptable.

How about the simplest answer that Occam's Razor leads us to? Higurashi was a different (set of) kakera, represented as a fiction novel Battler has access to.
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Old 2010-11-29, 07:08   Link #19184
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Actually, screw that blog text about George not being the culprit. Reading that and stopping thinking is my bad. After all, if Beatrice is indeed Shannon and is not the main culprit, who are the people she could be covering for? Of course George comes to mind. I'm having the mindset of the nice guy being the culprit similar to "the butler did it"... When you think about it, here we have a nice combo of Nice Guy + Servant culprit. This is not mystery, this is parody!

Not that it can't be taken seriously.
A lead to a motive I found is that George wants to build his own kingdom, in a similar way to Kinzo. The Ushiromiya family was almost wiped out in an earthquake. Maybe George is trying to imitate it by killing everyone else in an explosion and surviving with Shannon. He is quite the romantic fellow...

By surviving he'd get the inheritance. But there's a contradiction to what he's been saying. If he wanted to build his empire from scratch, would he want the inheritance? Maybe he's just planning to give it to the poor. That could clear some suspicions against him after the incident. He's bound to be suspected if he alone survives with his fiancee. It has also been speculated that George might have been the one buying his father's stocks. That could be his starting point, but isn't that also building on someone else's industry?

I think I won't be disappointed if George turns out to be the culprit, because it will probably cause a brotherly fight to the death in the rain between Battler and George in EP8 (that body language thing when Ronove was introduced). Ryukishi's foreshadowing is wonderful.
Don't know if Battler has any skills to beat him though. I do believe George has skills in martial arts, otherwise even introducing it would be pointless. It does prove George's point better if there's some epic fighting though!

If thinking by who would Shannon cover for, another possible candidate with some culprit appeal would be Rosa. The cover-up might be for Maria's sake.
Rosa has said that Maria is her only ally in the world. Those thoughts could bring up some murder intent, at least in the wacky mind of the best mom ever.

About Higurashi, didn't Akasaka and Ooishi write a book about the Hinamizawa incident in Himatsubushi (at least in the manga)?
If that's not the case, could Hachijo be the author of Higurashi as well, under a different handle from Itouikukuro or Tohya?

What could be the logic error Bernkastel was dragged into be? If it was about Higurashi, it could imply there was some point Ryukishi had written himself to a corner, and needed to alter the answer to get everything right. Or was there some kind of mystery that wasn't solved?
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Old 2010-11-29, 07:11   Link #19185
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Most theories revolve around it being a crime of greed or love. I think the game even tells us that this what its usually is when the culprit is a human. But what if the culprit really is a witch?
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Old 2010-11-29, 10:35   Link #19186
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I think I won't be disappointed if George turns out to be the culprit, because it will probably cause a brotherly fight to the death in the rain between Battler and George in EP8 (that body language thing when Ronove was introduced). Ryukishi's foreshadowing is wonderful.
Don't know if Battler has any skills to beat him though. I do believe George has skills in martial arts, otherwise even introducing it would be pointless. It does prove George's point better if there's some epic fighting though!
Yeah, but for some reason, I just don't think of George as the culprit, even with all the evidence. Ryukishi07 has ALL these characters to choose from and he decides GEORGE?
I'm not saying George shouldn't be the culprit, it's just that I don't want him to be. Just me being selfish, I guess.
But yeah, I guess it would kinda throw me through a loop if he really was the culprit, huh?

Quote:
Most theories revolve around it being a crime of greed or love. I think the game even tells us that this what its usually is when the culprit is a human. But what if the culprit really is a witch?
Would it be a witch we already know of? (Like two certain blonde and blue-haired ones I know of...?) But that sounds interesting...
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Old 2010-11-29, 11:19   Link #19187
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
How about the simplest answer that Occam's Razor leads us to? Higurashi was a different (set of) kakera, represented as a fiction novel Battler has access to.
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's literally impossible for Higurashi and Umineko to be in the same universe.
emphasis added

I'll admit that Higurashi being completely fictional in the world of Umineko is the simplest answer. However, unless you can show that every possible combination of arcs of Higurashi and Umineko (this includes every official version of every arc) leads to a contradiction, you cannot reasonably claim that it is impossible for them to take place in the same world.

Last edited by Frisko; 2010-11-29 at 11:20. Reason: formatting
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Old 2010-11-29, 11:28   Link #19188
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Impossible? No.

Extremely unlikely? Yes.


Unless you can come up with a decent explanation as to how Okonogi suddenly became the head of a food catering company soon after the Hinamizawa incident.
Since George said he's been working for Okonogi for a while and that he's been Hideyoshi's business partner, it is unreasonable to think that didn't happen at the very least three years before 1986.

There is also the problem with Featherinne who has practically nothing to share with her counterpart in Higurashi.

Lastly Bern's background story doesn't match at all. Unless you think that Higurashi sucked that much that you could compare it with some rubbish created by a bunch of monkeys pressing typewriters' buttons randomly.
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:12   Link #19189
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I just stumbled in on something very beautiful just now and that would be the connection that Higurashi and Umineko share. Here is my 2 cents without going into great detail:

Higurashi and Umineko are in the same universe just not in the way most people think. There are 2 people or rather characters who can make this possible in Umineko and one chapters in Higurashi that falls out of line from the others.

Bernkestal and Featherinne are the main players in this theory and the "Dice Killing Chapter" work in the playing of the theory. I would like continue but I don't want to interrupt in another persons theory. I'll admit my theory does have holes in it but would anyone care to hear?
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:24   Link #19190
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Unless you can come up with a decent explanation as to how Okonogi suddenly became the head of a food catering company soon after the Hinamizawa incident.
Since George said he's been working for Okonogi for a while and that he's been Hideyoshi's business partner, it is unreasonable to think that didn't happen at the very least three years before 1986.
But which kakera from Higurashi? If we switch to the kakera that (if we use my Frog theory in this example, but it doesn't have to be used necessarily) Bern checkmated LD's Takano piece in, then there's no reason for Okonogi to have ever been involved with Hinamizawa, etc.

Alternatively, Okonogi's business may be a cover operation.

Quote:
There is also the problem with Featherinne who has practically nothing to share with her counterpart in Higurashi.
I admit AuAu is a weaker link for me. I suppose it is possible Hanyuu could have been a piece played by AuAu in the various Higurashi kakera, much like how LD and Bern have interfered with Beatrice's gameboard. Or Bern, as AuAu's miko, deliberately made a Hanyuu piece modeled after her.

Quote:
Lastly Bern's background story doesn't match at all. Unless you think that Higurashi sucked that much that you could compare it with some rubbish created by a bunch of monkeys pressing typewriters' buttons randomly.
Most of Bern's background story seems to fit from what I can recall, at least going by the Frog theory. Higurashi was just one of the prior game boards she had faced LD on. The view of Bern we get via Rika from "within the well" is severely limited. Check also Bern's allusion to the maze trap and "endurance game" she had with LD, and then compare this with Frederica Bern's poem in Higurashi about the different levels of awareness for victims caught in a maze.

I don't understand how viewing Higurashi as a small part of Bern's larger backstory would somehow diminish Higurashi. If anything, I think it expands the possible meanings to be read in it, especially when looking at Frederica's poetry, and at possible "game moves" made that seemed more random chance before.
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:54   Link #19191
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Hmm...Higurashi happened in 1983....Umineko happened in 1986.....

Featherine and Ange discussed the messing up of time between gods, and how six years can be equivalent to 1000 years...

So if Bern was born through Higurashi...then including the logic error Bern was trapped in.

Just thinking out loud here..
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Old 2010-11-29, 12:57   Link #19192
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I personally think people are taking the Gameboard ideas too seriously. I see them as analogies of what's going on, like the chess metaphors throughout the series. I don't think it's the be-all-end-all explanation for the meta-world, rather just how Bern and Lamba choose to look down on the human world, showing their detachment from the human emotions involved. I can't remember Ronove or Virgilia ever calling them gameboards, and doesn't Battler refer to them as 'tales' or 'fragments' instead?

I don't think that we need to think of Higurashi in terms on a gameboard, even if Bern and Lambda, maybe even Featherine, choose to look back on it in that way. And if you think about it, if Higurashi was the traumatizing 'logic error' Bern remembers, it makes sense she'd want to distance her emotional self from it as much as possible. She'd want to think back on it as a detached 'game' rather than remember what it was like when it was her reality.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:10   Link #19193
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Hmm...Higurashi happened in 1983....Umineko happened in 1986.....

Featherine and Ange discussed the messing up of time between gods, and how six years can be equivalent to 1000 years...

So if Bern was born through Higurashi...then including the logic error Bern was trapped in.

Just thinking out loud here..
If we were to assume that they are in the same universe then we can conclude that the events of Higurashi and Umineko are 3 years apart.

The logic error would follow my theory and it would be the exact problem that Rika had in the series... if Rika Furude is to murdered, who is the one to act the part of the murderer. (This is the fact that if you believe that the "Dice Killing Chapter" is the true Higurashi tale).

Last edited by goldenlove27; 2010-11-29 at 13:45.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:12   Link #19194
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Unless you can come up with a decent explanation as to how Okonogi suddenly became the head of a food catering company soon after the Hinamizawa incident.
Since George said he's been working for Okonogi for a while and that he's been Hideyoshi's business partner, it is unreasonable to think that didn't happen at the very least three years before 1986.
Err... why would they need to be the same kakera to have a connection?
I seriously see no reason for this to happen: we know by fact that Higurashi is considered as a fiction in umineko universe, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist as distant fragments in the same "When they cry" universe.
Quote:
There is also the problem with Featherinne who has practically nothing to share with her counterpart in Higurashi.
They are counterpart, it doesn't mean the piece has to be a perfect replica of the one "controlling it". For instance, I can't call the "Frederica Bernkastel" in the kakera world to be the exact replica of the Frederica/Rika stuck in the loop, trying endlessly to get out of there.
The connection is shown as a "base model", there is no implication or obligation for both to be the same, as shown with Bern and Lambda.

Quote:
Lastly Bern's background story doesn't match at all. Unless you think that Higurashi sucked that much that you could compare it with some rubbish created by a bunch of monkeys pressing typewriters' buttons randomly.
actually, Bern's backstory is the backbone element that allows such connection, and like what people aready said, I see no reason for this connection to cheapen Higurashi's plot at all.

If anything else, it gives even more information regarding how things were stuck in loops.

Eitherway, both franchise have a blatant connection that can be interpreted differently. But that connection has little to no impact to the actual quality, meaning and execution of their respective plot.
Otherwise, it implies that people who didn't read Higurashi have a stark different experience than those who did, which is nonsensical.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:18   Link #19195
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If we were to assume that they are in the same universe then we can conclude that the events of Higurashi and Umineko are 3 years apart.

The logic error would follow my theory and it would be the exact problem that Rika had in the series... if Rika Furude is to murdered, who is the one to act the part of the murderer.
Okay okay, just thought of this (so many holes, but just bear with me)

The game was not between Bernkastel and Lambdadelta; rather, it was between Featherine and Lambdadelta. Featherine then created a piece named Rika Furude.

Featherine got herself trapped in a logic error, and it was said Bern was a piece and was unknowingly forced to fix the logic error her master (In this case, Featherine) created. Featherine then either created Hanyuu (or Hanyuu was already there) and the eternity of the logic error began, repeating for a long time (thus we now may have: Higurasi). Featherine and Lambda went about their business until Rika finally solved the logic error, and thus Bernkastel was (somehow xD) born.

It explains why Bernkastel is afraid of Featherine. She hates Featherine for what she did and is still scared because Featherine could probably just make Bern her piece again or something...

She even mispronounced her name to "Augustus auaurora" when they met up again for fun. Featherine released her as a piece and Bernkastel seperated herself from Rika, became a witch, whilst human Rika continued her life with her friends.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:26   Link #19196
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Okay okay, just thought of this (so many holes, but just bear with me)

The game was not between Bernkastel and Lambdadelta; rather, it was between Featherine and Lambdadelta. Featherine then created a piece named Rika Furude.

Featherine got herself trapped in a logic error, and it was said Bern was a piece and was unknowingly forced to fix the logic error her master (In this case, Featherine) created. Featherine then either created Hanyuu (or Hanyuu was already there) and the eternity of the logic error began, repeating for a long time (thus we now may have: Higurasi). Featherine and Lambda must've went on their business until Rika finally solved the logic error, and thus Bernkastel was (somehow xD) born.

It explains why Bernkastel is afraid of Featherine. She even mispronounced her name to "Augustus auaurora" when they met up again for fun. Featherine released her as a piece and Bernkastel separated herself from Rika, became a witch, whilst human Rika continued her life with her friends.
I like this theory. The idea of Lamba versus Featherine is a nice thought, that is far enough removed from the emotional aspects of Higurashi, I think, to not interfere. It would definitely give a new sense of the loneliness Rika/Frederica shows in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen. And I could see Lambda taking a liking to Bern as an offspring to such a game, gives an interesting twist to their relationship. It's also not inconceivable that Bern herself would think she beat Lambda (so making sense with the first 2 tea parties) because in this theory Bern essentially did do all the work.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:31   Link #19197
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I like this theory. The idea of Lamba versus Featherine is a nice thought, that is far enough removed from the emotional aspects of Higurashi, I think, to not interfere. It would definitely give a new sense of the loneliness Rika/Frederica shows in the beginning of Minagoroshi-hen. And I could see Lambda taking a liking to Bern as an offspring to such a game, gives an interesting twist to their relationship. It's also not inconceivable that Bern herself would think she beat Lambda (so making sense with the first 2 tea parties) because in this theory Bern essentially did do all the work.
Pretty much. Featherine must've gotten bored and abandoned the game, leaving Rika to solve the logic error herself. She did win, but since she's only a piece, I guess the victory wasn't really hers or something like that....
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:48   Link #19198
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So, there I was, checking some information about the name Maria (this was unrelated to Umineko, though), when I stumbled over the fact that the name Manon is a French nickname for Marie (which is the French version of Maria).

I'm not trying to suggest anything with this. I'm merely leaving this here.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:51   Link #19199
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I never heard that being a nickname or a diminutive, but I see really no relevancy to umineko at all... care to explain?
Dumping information like that is anything but useful.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:55   Link #19200
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I never heard that being a nickname or a diminutive, but I see really no relevancy to umineko at all... care to explain?
Manon is a nickname used to refer to both Marie and Madeline in the french language. Also how it pertains to the story, it could be symbolism, also the fighting is using gratuitous french...

e- Also the name Maria could itself have a piece of symbolism in the story. Many have tried to find the origin of the name, some think it means bitter, or sea (latin mare), or Love/Beloved (Egyptian Mr/e)
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