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Old 2010-11-29, 19:23   Link #19221
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And what do you mean by a "witch"? If you mean someone who can use magic, then those don't exist.
Yeah the witch can use "magic" and she keeps her promises as well.
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Old 2010-11-29, 19:44   Link #19222
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
I wish THIS kakera we all live in had magic ;~;
Sure it has magic. If you close your eyes, I'll make candy appear under this cup in front of me.
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Old 2010-11-29, 21:18   Link #19223
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Sure it has magic. If you close your eyes, I'll make candy appear under this cup in front of me.
Hmm. I guess you could, slipping it under while I'm not looking looks like magic at some point..
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Old 2010-11-29, 22:41   Link #19224
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For a new topic, are there any comprehensive theories on Maria's rose? I wanna know what people's thoughts are. With it's use in the question and core arc openings, as well as it's significant focus in the questions arcs, especially as a repeating event, I'm not willing to accept that it was just some part of a plan to give Maria the letter. Ideas?

(Also, lol at people thinking Erika was the rose based on the EP5 opening)
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Old 2010-11-29, 23:09   Link #19225
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All I know about the rose was that it was withering, George left a marking on it, Maria couldn't find it, thus she stayed around and--- Oh .__.

CONVIENANTLY LOCATED ROSE FOR GETTING THE LETTER???

Yeah, I have no clue O_o
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Old 2010-11-30, 00:16   Link #19226
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It's just an anchoring point. In every reality, Maria will become interested in that rose. And in every reality, Maria will want to check up on it. We can perhaps see it as a sort of crossroads, where we can more or less rest assured that all universes more or less remain the same up until the point that it's marked.
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Old 2010-11-30, 01:35   Link #19227
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Um...

Hm. The difficulty in finding the significance of the rose is deciding whether or not it's even important. I agree with AuraTwilight that it might just be one of those things to indicate that the basic setup is the same each time, like George's proposal, or the cousins relaxing at the beach.

As far as theories, I read one where the rose disappeared because Godha took it for decorating dinner / dessert (I forget), another where George marks it intentionally, and another where it was all coincidence, and that the letter wouldve found it's way to Maria one way or another.

Well at any rate, if the First Twilights are supposed to be faked, each and EVERY time, then it's not even necessary for the first letter to be read until the bodies are found. With the gambling / risks / odds theme that runs pretty rampant, I'm willing to believe that the entirety of the rose's significance is what a huge coincidence it all was...
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Old 2010-11-30, 02:31   Link #19228
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The thing is, the First Twilights can't be faked each and every single time. The only times they can be faked are when the bodies are laid in comfortable areas.
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Old 2010-11-30, 02:34   Link #19229
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That's only if the faking is intended to go on for a long time. If they only plan to be in place for, say, an hour, then it's not a big issue for them to be sitting at a table or hiding in a shed.
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Old 2010-11-30, 02:58   Link #19230
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well at any rate, if the First Twilights are supposed to be faked, each and EVERY time, then it's not even necessary for the first letter to be read until the bodies are found. With the gambling / risks / odds theme that runs pretty rampant, I'm willing to believe that the entirety of the rose's significance is what a huge coincidence it all was...
Just to add my two cents, a theory went that they were faking at one point, but without being found, they disappeared as they were ordered to meet up some place else (like the shed). Then they were killed and thus it masks the idea that they had been faking to begin with.

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Old 2010-11-30, 03:37   Link #19231
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
That's only if the faking is intended to go on for a long time. If they only plan to be in place for, say, an hour, then it's not a big issue for them to be sitting at a table or hiding in a shed.
There's some reds for the first and second episodes that make that pretty complicated, though.
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Old 2010-11-30, 05:17   Link #19232
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I am not the one who is comparing Bern's past to the infinite monkey theorem, it was Lambda inside the game who did. The kind of "logic error" Bern found herself was this kind of hell. It was illogic, random, and without a precise goal. This is what Lambda said not me.
You are assuming that Bern had to go through a illogical world with that statement. I see here the exact metaphor for Rika who went through an infinitesimal amount of kakera to actually do what it needs to be done. Comparing that hardship with the monkey theorem isn't really far from the truth: Rika had to go a lot of things that are totally stupid and completely on the blind side (since she does not know the true victory conditions, nor the setting of the board). She went as far as going against a berserk Shion, or trying to survive in the moutains as a little girl until July 1983 etc.

Although the comparison with "mindlessly typing" is quite exaggerated, I see no reason to think it doesn't match with what Rika was doing all along.
In fact, she did so many times that she became jaded to the point she didn't care what was going on at some point, which was her hell and that "logic error": why keep going this, while she seemly had no chance to defeat her fate? Why bother when she will "obviously" die anyway?

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There are several hints. The siesta sisters should have already taught you that Ryuukishi doesn't make senseless fanservice. The Siesta sisters don't have bunny ears just because, and Bern doesn't have a cat tail just because. Bern has also been frequently shown as morphing into a cat, but more importantly in the ura tea party in EP6 Featherinne (who obviously knows Bern's past and true form) told her that the cat she saw was in fact Bern herself.
Except that Featherine could very well meant in a metaphor way: that Bern was like that cat, some sort of cute thing that got the taste of flesh etc. The whole context was hardly a direct mention of her past. If anything, it is nothing close to Bern literally saying "what did I use to say again...?". Coincidence or plain fanservice? I doubt she would say "mii niipa" when "she was a cat" but huh..
Also, the fact she has a cat tail is a direct reference to Rika afflicted by Mion's punishment game, to the point Ryukishi made a Neko mimi rika tachi e back in Higurashi.
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Lastly in EP7 Bern summons a swarm of cats. Are you really drawing all of this as irrelevant?
Beatrice summons a swarm of butterflies and goats, that doesn't mean she has any close origin with butterflies or goats.
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Epicycle. You understand that the Bern in Umineko is not the same Bern of Higurashi but instead of dropping the theory, you come up with some completely unsupported and more complicated theory in an attempt to explain the obvious discrepancy. Occam's razor dictates that if A and B are different, then that simply means A and B are different.
The idea is that both have the same origin. Having the very same starting point means they are connected in some fashion, which was the whole point of this discussion.
Unsupported? I see no reason to think it is unsupported considering the several points about Bernkastel in general. Furthermore, Higurashi has already shown 2 distinct "Frederica": one trying to earn the happiness of Furude Rika, the other one observing without caring that much of the result, but rather the process. That Frederica definitely existed, yet she somehow cannot be the Bernkastel we know? I dunno, the several elements definitely bridge the gap.
Using logic whereas we are dealing with fictional characters from a multiverse fiction doesn't work well either.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-11-30 at 05:33.
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Old 2010-11-30, 05:30   Link #19233
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
For a new topic, are there any comprehensive theories on Maria's rose? I wanna know what people's thoughts are. With it's use in the question and core arc openings, as well as it's significant focus in the questions arcs, especially as a repeating event, I'm not willing to accept that it was just some part of a plan to give Maria the letter. Ideas?

(Also, lol at people thinking Erika was the rose based on the EP5 opening)
Maria's rose is a symbolic thing, while all the other roses are doing fine there is only one that withers. Its symbolism for herself really, thats why when George asks to her to give it a name she stays silent, she sees herself in that flower.
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Old 2010-11-30, 05:43   Link #19234
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
You are assuming that Bern had to go through a illogical world with that statement. I see here the exact metaphor for Rika who went through an infinitesimal amount of kakera to actually do what it needs to be done. Comparing that hardship with the monkey theorem isn't really far from the truth: Rika had to go a lot of things that are totally stupid and completely on the blind side (since she does not know the true victory conditions, nor the setting of the board). She went as far as going against a berserk Shion, or trying to survive in the moutains as a little girl until July 1983 etc.

Although the comparison with "mindlessly typing" is quite exaggerated, I see no reason to think it doesn't match with what Rika was doing all along.
In fact, she did so many times that she became jaded to the point she didn't care what was going on at some point, which was her hell and that "logic error": why keep going this, while she seemly had no chance to defeat her fate? Why bother when she will "obviously" die anyway?
So in the end you do think that the Higurashi's Bern/Rika's predicament can be compared to the infinite monkey theorem.
I haven't said anything wrong there, I just couldn't think that someone would really try to rationalize this. Apparently you do, can't say much here as I can't prove that my interpretation is correct. But let me say that I don't consider your interpretation of a "logic error" correct.
I don't see any element to support that view, not in Umineko.
The logic error shown in Umineko is something that happens during the creation of a game. A logic error simply cannot exist without a Game Master and cannot possibly happen without a creation process. This is the evidence shown in the story. What you propose is nothing but a speculation.


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Except that Featherine could very well meant in a metaphor way: that Bern was like that cat, some sort of cute thing that got the taste of flesh etc. The whole context was hardly a direct mention of her past. If anything, it is nothing close to Bern literally saying "what did I use to say again when I was human...?"
Also, the fact she has a cat tail is a direct reference to Rika afflicted by Mion's punishment game, to the point Ryukishi made a Neko mimi rika tachi e back in Higurashi.
Beatrice summons a swarm of butterflies and goats, that doesn't mean she has any close origin with butterflies or goats.
You doesn't seem to understand the point I was making: the idea is that both have the same origin. Having the very same starting point means they are connected in some fashion, which was the whole point of this discussion.
Unsupported? I see no reason to think it is unsupported considering the several points about Bernkastel in general.
Using logic whereas we are dealing with fictional characters from a multiverse fiction doesn't work well either.
I think the several hints if put together give more than a reasonable ground to suspect that Bern's original form was that of a cat. But I do recognize they are merely hints and not facts, as I stated from the beginning.

So let me recapitulate. So far we have acknowledged that:

-Umineko's set of kakera is different from Higurashi's set of kakera, due to Okonogi, the existence of magic and many other factors.
-Umineko's Bernkastel is not the same Bernkastel shown in Higurashi. The same obviously goes with Featherinne.

So basically the only element that is left for you to claim that there is a connection between the two stories is the common origin of the two Bernkastels.

Am I correct so far?

So you managed to dodge all the hints that I proposed to claim that Umineko's Bern has in fact a completely different background. But can you say that you actually proved that my interpretation is wrong? Can you provide a logical argument to prove that your interpretation is more likely?

Basically the theory of a connection between Higurashi and Umineko is held by a single assumption that isn't even fully supported by hints, as alternative equally valid explanations exist.

Or that's what I would say if I didn't think that your explanation of how Higurashi's Bern's predicament was a "monkey typewriter logic error" is an incredible stretch.
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Old 2010-11-30, 06:04   Link #19235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The logic error shown in Umineko is something that happens during the creation of a game. A logic error simply cannot exist without a Game Master and cannot possibly happen without a creation process. This is the evidence shown in the story. What you propose is nothing but a speculation.
Who is "creating" the kakera as far as it goes? Hanyuu isn't it?
Lambdadelta confirmed that Bern's logical error wasn't caused by her, which arguably points out Hanyuu/Featherine.
Although we do not have a "game" structure per se, we have the process of "creation" which caused the logic error.
Furthermore, Lambdadelta confirms Bern's master lost sight of her goal, which was actually saving Rika... what they did for so long was just "retarding the inevitable". Furthermore, there were hints that hanyuu was just trying to enjoy the little happiness before the tragedy each times, which has put a huge guilt on her psyche. Instead of trying to save Rika so the latter will earn her happiness, she is looping the kakeras in order for her to have tiny share of happiness before every damn tragedy. It perfectly match the mention of "where the start and goal were connected like a donut."
Quote:
So let me recapitulate. So far we have acknowledged that:

-Umineko's set of kakera is different from Higurashi's set of kakera, due to Okonogi, the existence of magic and many other factors.
-Umineko's Bernkastel is not the same Bernkastel shown in Higurashi. The same obviously goes with Featherinne.
The first statement is something we all agree. However, I believe the sea of kakera is exactly the same.
Also, Umineko's Bernkastel isn't the same as the one in higurashi who is trying to work hard on Furude Rika's happiness. However, I believe she is the same Higurashi Bernkastel who is just observing things from a higher plane.
You cannot deny the very high possibility both are the same, especially considering Minagoroshi-hen.

If we were to consider that Frederica is a "piece" to Bernkastel, we can apply the same point towards Hanyuu, who is controlled by Featherine.

Quote:
So basically the only element that is left for you to claim that there is a connection between the two stories is the common origin of the two Bernkastels.

Am I correct so far?

So you managed to dodge all the hints that I proposed to claim that Umineko's Bern has in fact a completely different background. But can you say that you actually proved that my interpretation is wrong? Can you provide a logical argument to prove that your interpretation is more likely?
It isn't about proving the other's interpretation wrong, but rather solidifying one's theory with references, facts and other points.
As for mine:
-Umineko Bernkastel mentions she said "Mii niipa, fight-oh" "in the past"

-Umineko Bernkastel has features from Furude Rika (aside of physical similarities, cat tail from a batsu game etc)

-Lambdadelta confirms that Bernkastel was stuck in a "hell", and wasn't a sentient piece before. She realized she was a "piece" only afterwards. This is applied to Higurashi Frederica, as she didn't have any idea what was going on, until much later, when she finally realized few recurring events, elaborating rules X, Y Z as result.

-Lambdadelta confirms that Umineko Bernkastel was counting the years, which Higurashi Frederica did: more than 100 years of hell in June 1983.

-Over the sky BGM, the signature BGM for "Frederica" and the Kakera world is played when Umineko Bernkastel's background tidbit is revealed.

-Lambdadelta confirms that Bern's master lost track of her true goal: in the end, it became a logical error, where the start and the goal looped for some reason. It matches with Hanyuu dropping her hope to save Rika, and instead, artificially "prolong" Rika's life, even if it is ridiculous. In the end, Frederica was the one to find the answer. This is why Lambda compares it to the monkey theorem: she was stuck in an endless loop, a logic error created by the sheer contradicting intent and goal of her master, and has to randomly do X or Y things to find a solution, which literally broke her heart.

-Minagoroshi (both in the VN and manga) has shown there is another Frederica lurking in the Kakera world, observing this struggle.

-The last hidden piece in Higurashi kai shows "Frederica" toying with some fragment (which couldn't be the one who found her happiness), and witness a piece where Tanashi Miyoko is happy as well.

-Higurashi Frederica was always mentioning the "miracle" that has happened in Matsuribayashi-hen, which matches Lambdadelta mentioning that Umineko Bernkastel managed to create a miracle.

-Higurashi Frederica mentions she will stop being a "witch" back in Higurashi Rei.

Quote:
Basically the theory of a connection between Higurashi and Umineko is held by a single assumption that isn't even fully supported by hints, as alternative equally valid explanations exist.
It is supported by hints, as I stated above.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-11-30 at 07:26. Reason: typo
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Old 2010-11-30, 08:48   Link #19236
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If Bern was a cat, then clearly LamdaDelta must have been a Jack 'o Lantern. @_@

Now on the other hand, cats are familiars for witches, and in Umineko the role of the miko is that of a familiar. Also some have interpreted Rika's "mii~" as a kitten's mew (such as the Yen Press version, for however much that is worth). Rika clearly liked cats in any case. I don't think the cat motif necessarily means she was a cat previously any more than Beatrice was a butterfly, but is more a reflection of her taste.

The very first thing I thought of when the chimpanzee typewriter allusion was made in the sound novel was Higurashi. Klashikari's explanation is dead on. The "mindless typing" was a simplified metaphor for when Rika/Frederica had given up trying and was just waiting out the random permutations of Hanyuu/AuAu's re-rolling of the dice until that miracle of probability came through (the "endurance contest"). I've never really doubted much that most of the allusions to Bern's past were about Higurashi.

I'm much more curious about LamdaDelta's own logic error hell. Her description of the experience reminds me a little of Takano's experience at the orphanage, but in that case I think I am trying to read too much into it.
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Old 2010-11-30, 10:17   Link #19237
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There's some reds for the first and second episodes that make that pretty complicated, though.
We could just be seeing aftermath in those cases. The shed could have been unintended (or at least the people in it were not meant to be dead), and the adults in ep2 could have been intended to remain there (or be drugged so they could "come back to life"), then killed.

I think it can work in every episode that faking was intended, or at least fakery was the proposal made to the genuine victims by the killer; however, with the exception of ep5 and ep6, the fakery was never completed prior to the discovery. In those episodes, the FT actually was faked properly, but people were killed subsequent.

It's possible that the ep1-4 killer(s) have no intention of a true faked FT, but say they do in order to kill their victims and hide among the corpses.
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Old 2010-11-30, 10:36   Link #19238
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Yeah, I like the idea of people getting together to pull a prank but the culprit wacking them in the process later. It would explain the phone calls in EP4, they fed Battler a lie and then the culprit made the murders fit them.

EP1s truths regarding the dead can be bypassed with the blue in EP5, the only real one that has problem with this is Kanon's death but that could be answered with Shkanon killing the personality or a name trick if Shkanon doesn't exist.
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Old 2010-11-30, 10:41   Link #19239
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(lol, two topics at once xD. Bern's Background and faking the First Twilight)

Quote:
I think it can work in every episode that faking was intended, or at least fakery was the proposal made to the genuine victims by the killer; however, with the exception of ep5 and ep6, the fakery was never completed prior to the discovery. In those episodes, the FT actually was faked properly, but people were killed subsequent.
Do you suppose the culprit had been waiting patiently all this time and when--I dunno, SOMEBODY--mentioned they play a fake killing game, did the culprit decide to take this chance to actually kill?
Or like the quote above, the killer went, "Hey, guys! Let's pretend we all DIE for no apparant reason! I promise I won't ACTUALLY kill you, this is just supposed to be a game, right~?"

And why the heck would someone suggest pretending to be dead at all? Did they all plan this before they got to the island? I'm asking this because how the heck can they plan the deaths, get the drugs that faked the death (if there were any), and execute those plans in only a few hours? Who was twisted enough to think this? (the culprit <_<)

Finally, why would they do this? A test for the survivors to see who is capable of being the new heir?
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Old 2010-11-30, 10:50   Link #19240
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Its easier to lead the people somewhere and kill them that kill them and drag their corpses to that place afterwards.

The kids are always chased out of the room for what we believe might be some nasty inheritance squabble, what if they really aren't evil bad people and just want to play a joke on the kids?
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