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Old 2010-12-01, 12:27   Link #10261
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
The issue isn't really with nationalism by itself, but when nationalism is associated with others problems; it's more like a cathallizer than a cause.

Pakistan dismisses concerns about its nuclear weapons, calls them 'the safest'
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1819975/
I'm not really convinced by Pakistan's claim but I guess than nobody would say than their nukes might end-up on others hands.
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Old 2010-12-01, 12:49   Link #10262
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
nationalism basically says "this country is mine"
I belong to it, and it belongs to me.

If you aren't willing to state that something is YOURS, then why defend it.
and if you aren't willing to defend something, be assured that someone will take it from you.
The country I live in isn't mine, nor do I belong to it. However I live here in a community and would most certainly defend it if we were under danger. There's no need for nationalism. No country is 'the best' that's all just nonsense. We can certainly stand up for our fellow countrymen and fight for our culture without adopting the dangerous mentality that we are inherently better than other nations.

And nationalism in and of itself does not cause problems, but the mindset a nationalist develops can lead to warfare, colonialism, etc, thus it is a dangerous and (imo, given our current understanding of science and history) outdated way of thinking. Nations haven't even been in existence for 10% of humankind's time on the earth.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:00   Link #10263
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
The country I live in isn't mine, nor do I belong to it. However I live here in a community and would most certainly defend it if we were under danger. There's no need for nationalism. No country is 'the best' that's all just nonsense. We can certainly stand up for our fellow countrymen and fight for our culture without adopting the dangerous mentality that we are inherently better than other nations.
for starters, what makes them your "countrymen" if not your own personal sense that they, despite not being part of your own personal family/Clan circle, are still part of the same group ?

Quote:
And nationalism in and of itself does not cause problems, but the mindset a nationalist develops can lead to warfare, colonialism, etc, thus it is a dangerous and (imo, given our current understanding of science and history) outdated way of thinking. Nations haven't even been in existence for 10% of humankind's time on the earth.
because tribel warfare is unheard of.
you don't need nationalism to have conflict.
all you need are people.
when its between individuals, we call it crime/Murder.
when its between families, we call it a feud
when its between Tribes, we call it a tribel dispute
when its between nations, we call it war.

there is a saying in Arabic.
"Me against my brothers, my brothers and me against my cousin, my cousins and I against the world"

all human interactions are based on circles of relations.
that which is mine, and that which is outside of what is mine, in ever expending circles.
Me, my family, my Clan, my tribe, my nation.
each circle built around the previous ones, not replacing them, but expending them to include more people.
nationalism is a step in a positive direction actually, as it is the next logical circle.
it gives me a reason to care about the well being of people, who i don't even know personally.

now, if you want to champion the next circle (caring about EVEYONE) thats fine and well.
but it doesn't replace the old circles.
it only expends on them.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:05   Link #10264
ChainLegacy
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Nationalism in the sense that we're part of a collective community with shared interests, as you're defining it, is of course a positive and is part of our species survival strategy.

But look at who I was replying to. Sumeragi is clearly using nationalism in the militant 'we are better than you, integrate into us' sense, which is a bad thing no matter how you look at it.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:06   Link #10265
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Nationalism in the sense that we're part of a collective community with shared interests, as you're defining it, is of course a positive and is part of our species survival strategy.

But look at who I was replying to. Sumeragi is clearly using nationalism in the militant 'we are better than you, integrate into us' sense, which is a bad thing no matter how you look at it.
thats not Nationalism.
thats imperialism.
and i don't dispute that its bad.
i'm just saying that this is not what nationalism is about.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:08   Link #10266
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
thats not Nationalism.
thats imperialism.
and i don't dispute that its bad.
i'm just saying that this is not what nationalism is about.
Well I'd say you're getting a bit too nitpicky with semantics, then . He used the term nationalism, so I replied in turn. The word isn't really as important as what he meant to imply.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:09   Link #10267
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Well I'd say you're getting a bit too nitpicky with semantics, then . He used the term nationalism, so I replied in turn. The word isn't really as important as what he meant to imply.
if he meant what you say he meant, then we're in complete agreement that its wrong.
doesn't really matter how he calls it.
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Old 2010-12-01, 13:56   Link #10268
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
The issue isn't really with nationalism by itself, but when nationalism is associated with others problems; it's more like a cathallizer than a cause.

Pakistan dismisses concerns about its nuclear weapons, calls them 'the safest'
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1819975/
I'm not really convinced by Pakistan's claim but I guess than nobody would say than their nukes might end-up on others hands.
Well, I'm not sure about facility security, but I doubt that Pakistan has a very stringent command and control infrastructure on its nukes. India is probably much the same way.

During the Cold War, it would have taken 30 minutes for Russian missiles to reach the US, and surveillance systems were in place to monitor launches. Hence, for security reasons US nuclear missile subs cannot launch on their own, they have to receive a launch code from a command and control aircraft.
The UK, on the other hand, would only get about a 10 minute warning. Hence, the Royal Navy decided that it's submarine Captains should be able to launch on their own. Also, they apparently found the idea that Royal Navy personal would go rogue and start WW3 insulting. To this day, British nuclear missile subs have no launch codes on their missiles whatsoever (or so I've been told).
A nuclear weapon launch in India or Pakistan can reach targets in the other country in as little as three minutes. And many politicians there rely on cell phones because land lines are unreliable. I'd be very surprised if there's much red tape to cut prior to a launch.
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Old 2010-12-01, 17:28   Link #10269
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
The Russians aren't gonna try anything. They're already in dire straits with their own economy and they don't have anything of interest in East Asia apart from a few business investments, which are hardly enough to warrant military action on their part. Besides, Russians are arms traders. No matter who takes the asian cake, they'll still make money from whoever's eating it.
The Russian has plenty of oil and gas on their land which they can pipe over to the Belarus Straits or even export. Heck they even have their own refining centers, so their economy is nowhere near dire.

The problem is with their currency. The rouble is so hyperinflated that it is difficult to even trade with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
Maybe, but in that area, I imagine it's easier to get weapons from Russia because they're both efficient (think AK-47) and cheaper, not to mention faster to get because they don't have to wait for cross-pacific shipments. And of course, they have a reputation as arms dealers.
China exports more AKs than Russia. Though the Russian versions are of higher quality, the design of the gun itself made the quality of the gun negligible : even the tribesmen from Swat can replicate the guns for normal powdered cartridges (unlike the other guns they copied which can only take in low powder cartridges due to the internal resistances to pressure).

Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Of course, military action is highly unlikely, given the lack of presence of Russians over there. If troops move there, it would be because of someone entering the boundaries.
I wouldn't exactly agree with you on that. Back in 1982 we found a couple of Russians here trying to indoctrinate SAF officers.

The Russians and US have spies everywhere. Most of them function as agents of provocation or influence, so they are harder to catch. Including that fapworthy spy busted by the FBI earlier this year (pun unintended, I know she has got a nice chest!).
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Old 2010-12-01, 18:46   Link #10270
MeoTwister5
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The Gulf States oil cartel has been blackmailing the Russian oil industry since Russia announced their capabilities to produce and export oil, which is why it isn't working at proper capacity.
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Old 2010-12-01, 21:05   Link #10271
Noctis Lucis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post

Hmmm... in my case..... My paternal grandfather was part of the Kantogun, and Oppa's (my second cousin/fiance) paternal grandfather was a conscript under him. They had a very bad relationship after the war (partly because my grandfather abandoned his grandfather in one of the border clashes with USSR, which led to a stay in Normandy of all places) until both Oppa and I were born. You might say it took two generations for that particular thing to heal.

Tell me about it. My onii-san denies his part-Korean heritage, causing very violent clashes between his Japanese ultranationalism and my pan-nationalism (which went for more than just words). I faced my share of being half-Korean in Japan and half-Japanese in Korea, which only reinforced my belief in the far-off goal.

Think about it properly. Koreans still have a memory of being under Japan. You might have to wait for the current generation of post Korean War people to leave before even starting to plan for it.

Quote:
Interestingly enough, most Koreans are pro-Japanese on a personal level and anti-Japanese on a political level. The way I see it, it' always does few stupid neo-nationalists (Ishihara comes to mind) that ruin everything when it comes to Japanese-Korean relations. I wish I could just kick them out and get things rolling with the FTA.
More profitable to sign on with US and China. Even ASEAN makes more sense. And Ishihara should do something about Tokyo's suicide rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
The Russian has plenty of oil and gas on their land which they can pipe over to the Belarus Straits or even export. Heck they even have their own refining centers, so their economy is nowhere near dire.

The problem is with their currency. The rouble is so hyperinflated that it is difficult to even trade with it.
I went to People's Park yesterday, and the Indian money-changers said that it's impossible to get roubles. Went to the only Chinese one, and he said that roubles are only available INSIDE Russia. He told me to just grab Euros and USD. I complied. I was planning to go to (the former) East Germany after St Petersburg anyway.

On a side note, grab your Euros while they're cheap. It's almost as cheap as the lowest point of the Euro this year: 58eurocents to the SGD.

So I guess it's true, the rouble really is going mad.


Quote:
I wouldn't exactly agree with you on that. Back in 1982 we found a couple of Russians here trying to indoctrinate SAF officers.
They thought they could pass for Mexicans.





Quote:
The Russians and US have spies everywhere. Most of them function as agents of provocation or influence, so they are harder to catch. Including that fapworthy spy busted by the FBI earlier this year (pun unintended, I know she has got a nice chest!).
Which is what probably tipped FBI off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
The Gulf States oil cartel has been blackmailing the Russian oil industry since Russia announced their capabilities to produce and export oil, which is why it isn't working at proper capacity.
Are you sure it isn't the former USSR states that are endangered by a resurgent Russia (refer to Georgia)?
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Old 2010-12-01, 21:07   Link #10272
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
But look at who I was replying to. Sumeragi is clearly using nationalism in the militant 'we are better than you, integrate into us' sense, which is a bad thing no matter how you look at it.
On the contrary, I'm using pan-nationalism as in "We're a family that was broken apart by wars, occupation, and colonialization. We should make up and unite in making sure we are not kicked around by the imperialist next door."

Defensive pan-nationalism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Well I'd say you're getting a bit too nitpicky with semantics, then . He used the term nationalism, so I replied in turn. The word isn't really as important as what he meant to imply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
if he meant what you say he meant, then we're in complete agreement that its wrong.
doesn't really matter how he calls it.
First of all..... It's SHE


Second, see above reply.
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Old 2010-12-01, 21:33   Link #10273
ZephyrLeanne
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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I don't particularly know what's going on, but I do know that Japan and Korea are only friendly, trade-wise.

Politically... don't ask me.

On to more news.

Canadians, WATCH OUT.

Quote:
Diplomats Noted Canadian Mistrust Toward U.S.

By CHARLIE SAVAGE

Published: December 1, 2010


WASHINGTON — In early 2008, American diplomats stationed in Ottawa turned on their television sets and were aghast: there was an “onslaught” of Canadian shows depicting “nefarious American officials carrying out equally nefarious deeds in Canada,” from planning to bomb Quebec to stealing Canadian water supplies.

In a confidential diplomatic cable sent back to the State Department, the American Embassy warned of increasing mistrust of the United States by its northern neighbor, with which it shares some $500 billion in annual trade, the world’s longest unsecured border and a joint military mission in Afghanistan.


“The degree of comfort with which Canadian broadcast entities, including those financed by Canadian tax dollars, twist current events to feed longstanding negative images of the U.S. — and the extent to which the Canadian public seems willing to indulge in the feast — is noteworthy as an indication of the kind of insidious negative popular stereotyping we are increasingly up against in Canada,” the cable said.


A trove of diplomatic cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and made available to a number of publications, disclose a perception by American diplomats that Canadians “always carry a chip on their shoulder” in part because of a feeling that their country “is condemned to always play ‘Robin’ to the U.S. ‘Batman.’ ”


But at the same time, some Canadian officials privately tried to make it clear to their American counterparts that they did not share their society’s persistent undercurrent of anti-Americanism.


In July 2008, Canada’s intelligence service director, James Judd, discussed a video showing a crying Omar Khadr, then a teenager and a Canadian detainee at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Mr. Judd “observed that the images would no doubt trigger ‘knee-jerk anti-Americanism’ and ‘paroxysms of moral outrage, a Canadian specialty.’ ”


A cable that briefed President George W. Bush before a visit to Ottawa in late 2004 shed further light on the asymmetrical relationship with Canada — a country, the embassy wrote, that was engaged in “soul-searching” about its “decline from ‘middle power’ status to that of an ‘active observer’ of global affairs, a trend which some Canadians believe should be reversed.”


It also noted that Canadian officials worried that they were being excluded from a club of English-speaking countries as a result of their refusal to take part in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. The United States had created a channel for sharing intelligence related to Iraq operations with Britain and Australia, but Canada was not invited to join.


The Canadian government “has expressed concern at multiple levels

that their exclusion from a traditional ‘four-eyes’ construct is ‘punishment’ for Canada’s nonparticipation in Iraq and they fear that the Iraq-related channel may evolve into a more permanent ‘three-eyes’ only structure,” the cable said.


Four years later, after President Obama’s election, the embassy reported that Canadian officials had a different potential irritant: Mr. Obama was far more popular in Canada than they were.


The embassy also said Mr. Obama’s decision to make Ottawa his first foreign trip as president would “do much to diminish — temporarily, at least — Canada’s habitual inferiority complex vis-à-vis the U.S. and its chronic but accurate complaint that the U.S. pays far less attention to Canada than Canada does to us.”


Still, just a few months earlier, during a national election in Canada, the embassy had marveled that “despite the overwhelming importance of the U.S. to Canada for its economy and security,” parliamentary candidates were rarely mentioning anything about relations with their southern neighbor.


“Ultimately, the U.S. is like the proverbial 900-pound gorilla in the midst of the Canadian federal election: overwhelming but too potentially menacing to acknowledge,” the cable said.
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Old 2010-12-01, 22:25   Link #10274
Xellos-_^
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blame Canada it is all Canada's fault.
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Old 2010-12-01, 22:30   Link #10275
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Its all those canadian ninja stealth moose infiltrating our waters with, erm, canadian soda pop, yeah.
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Old 2010-12-01, 22:31   Link #10276
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
blame Canada it is all Canada's fault.
It's a bit exagerated but, it's true than we are part of the situation.
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Old 2010-12-01, 22:35   Link #10277
MrTerrorist
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Your doing it wrong, it goes like this.

(Plays Music)

Blame Canada! Blame Canada!....

(You know the rest of the lyrics.)
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Old 2010-12-01, 22:42   Link #10278
ganbaru
books-eater youkai
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Speaking of another news from Canada:
Ex-Harper adviser regrets ‘glib’ call for retaliatory WikiLeaks assassination
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1820612/
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Old 2010-12-01, 23:01   Link #10279
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Japan has lifted the one pound restriction on shipping to the US that started after the "printer cartridge bomb". So the small shipping from individuals and small business can re-commence...

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0101202a1.html

Quote:
Mail over 453 grams OK: Japan Post


By MINORU MATSUTANI
Staff writer
Japan Post Co. resumed Wednesday accepting airmail packages weighing 453 grams (1 pound) or heavier bound for the U.S. because the carrier now has secured transportation means for such packages.

The company stopped sending such packages Nov. 17 at the request of U.S. aviation authorities as part of antiterrorism steps.
To deliver such packages, Japan Post reportedly has secured cargo airplanes that undergo security checks beforehand.
Japan Post said such packages may take longer than usual to be delivered to destinations in the U.S. due to limited space in cargo airplanes and strengthened security in international parcels.
Its rivals — the Japanese units of Fedex Corp., United Parcel Service of America Inc. and DHL International GmbH — had never stopped accepting such packages.
The U.S. Transportation Security Administration had informed air carriers of the 453-gram rule, and carriers notified Japan Post Services.
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Old 2010-12-01, 23:21   Link #10280
ZephyrLeanne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
Your doing it wrong, it goes like this.

(Plays Music)

Blame Canada! Blame Canada!....

(You know the rest of the lyrics.)
No, blame Canada's Canada, which is really... Sarah "I Can See Russia" Palin's state... ALASKA.
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