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Old 2010-12-02, 21:58   Link #19341
musouka
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Yasu's tricks can be considered mean-spirited, but they aren't meant to actually hurt people. I think the trick with Jessica was because of how she treated Maria, who Yasu considers a close friend. Likewise, Asune and Berune weren't bad people, but Yasu didn't try to prank them until she was completely frustrated with being ignored and shoved around.

I find Yasu charming because of her outlook on life and her attitude. The mental image I get of Yasu in the chapel, eyes tightly clenched and shoulders scrunched while she inwardly admonishes the "witch" that was hiding the broom from her is utterly delightful to me. Same with her stretched out on her bed, arguing with Gaap over the "witch" U.N. Owen. None of these things negate the cruel edge to her pranks, but I think her background makes that dark edge understandable. I think Yasu is a carefully crafted character, so I admire both the shining things and the dark things about her.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:27   Link #19342
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I've gotta agree with Musouka here. She's no Pollyanna Friend To All Living Things, but I do think Yasu is ultimately good at heart. Infact, I'm pretty positive she is. She doesn't really have it in her to be outright evil. And I personally don't have a problem fitting her into things. She's clearly foreshadowed; she has all the elements of becoming Beatrice. I just don't see the problem aside from personal dislike, and I'm sorry, I can't respectfully debate such a vague point. It just looks like Renall is unsatisfied because it's not what he wanted.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:34   Link #19343
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After the "How to create a great bully" speech in episode 6, are you so sure that Ryu wants Yasu to be viewed as totally sympathetic?
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:41   Link #19344
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Do you really think Yasu qualifies as a bully? I think of a bully's power as being more overt and something with direct benefit. Yasu doesn't actually get to reap the direct rewards as Beatrice, acting as Beatrice just makes her life easier because it becomes corroboration for her requests. It's a roundabout way of trying to use authority.

Also, I think it's sort of funny that people would put forth the idea that a nine year old girl is "bullying" people that are probably nearly twice her mental age.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:43   Link #19345
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I've gotta agree with Musouka here. She's no Pollyanna Friend To All Living Things, but I do think Yasu is ultimately good at heart. Infact, I'm pretty positive she is. She doesn't really have it in her to be outright evil. And I personally don't have a problem fitting her into things. She's clearly foreshadowed; she has all the elements of becoming Beatrice. I just don't see the problem aside from personal dislike, and I'm sorry, I can't respectfully debate such a vague point. It just looks like Renall is unsatisfied because it's not what he wanted.
Of course it's not what I wanted, because I don't think it works. I do totally agree that Yasu as portrayed is not a bad person. At least not a malicious person. And definitely not a bully. Bullies have power. Yasu is more like a guerilla.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:44   Link #19346
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Or that dressing like a ghost and standing in a window to spook people counts as bullying.

The EP6 speech about bullying was referring to Bern and people like her. Even in the worst possible light, I don't think Yasu qualifies, as she doesn't get gratification from people's suffering. Any suffering is an unintended byproduct of her attempts to scare people with harmless spooks. It's not that big a deal, really.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:47   Link #19347
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But I think what Renall is saying that while the facts fit, the 'feeling' doesn't quite. In other words, the motivation. Isn't this what we were warned about regarding Bernkastel casting the facts in a wrong light? I've always felt that since the very beginning when Bernkastel introduced this person to us as 'Yasu' that that name was synonymous with 'Culprit.'

Basically if in a detective novel, or hell, any kind of story, you call one of your characters "Mr. Culprit" and you write the whole story up with that person ACTUALLY being the culprit... it gets a little suspicious, doesn't it? Of course this isn't the end of the story, so I still expect a twist coming in EP8.
You might be surprised to hear this coming from me, but I don't think Yasu is the culprit in the real world. I do think she is in the games.

There are really two puzzles that need to be solved: what happened in the real world, and what happened in the games. Most of the theories I've made in the past are about the games, which do need to have a consistent history and story. The message bottles are likely a message sent from Yasu to Battler in the real world.

But what is the message of the message bottles? What is Yasu trying to tell? I think EP7 gives us the answer. The message bottles are mystery novels without the answer given. To Battler, the best part of a mystery wasn't finding the culprit or figuring out the tricks. It was figuring out the motive, what made the culprit choose to do what they did. So, if the bottles are a message from Yasu to Battler, then the actual message is the motive of the culprit. EP7 likens them to a set of roundabout love letters.

In other words, "to solve my puzzle and find my message, find out what motivates the culprit in the stories". In the real world, Yasu may have committed the murders, or she may not have.

Everything I say here is just a guess, of course. But if this is true, Yasu doesn't need a motive to commit the murders, but the motive for committing the murders must have something to do with how Yasu feels. So, the love trial, the way Yasu thought, Yasu's history, and the inescapable situation she was in are all messages to be found in the stories.

...Which would imply that there's a different culprit in the real world. And we now know this (almost) for a fact, since Lion dies in his/her world.
That's important, so I'll say it twice. Yasu cannot be the final culprit, and there's no evidence that she tried to kill anyone in the real world.
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Old 2010-12-02, 22:52   Link #19348
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I completely agree; of course, I would go one step further and say there IS no real culprit, but that's an entirely different discussion.
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Old 2010-12-02, 23:00   Link #19349
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I don't think Yasu actually exists in the stories, inasmuch as she replaces herself with her creations. I do think Shannon and/or Kanon are intended to be the culprits of ep1-4 (as Will Wright's pointed out, it creates the most orthodox Golden Age style solution). I don't think they are meant to be such in ep5-6 though (which may hint at the true culprit), and obviously they aren't portrayed that way in ep7.

That's a minor nitpick though.
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Old 2010-12-02, 23:29   Link #19350
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I'll agree with that. I'm really enchanted by the idea of Yasu scapegoating herself with her fictional proxies (putting aside whether Shannon and Kanon actually existed during the Rokkenjima Incident, here), and EP5 and EP6....well, yea.
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Old 2010-12-03, 00:12   Link #19351
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You know, I think there are definitely culprits, but as we start to understand them 1 by 1, I think we've always looked past them to try and find the 'true culprit.' I don't think that there's none though. For some reason I think we still haven't heard from some other highly suspicious people... person... guy *cough*George*cough* yet for good reason.

But going back to what I was saying, if you look at the earlier episodes, Eva was definitely a culprit for killing Battler at least in EP3. And EP7 suggests that Kyrie had her own designs. In short, the siblings at the very least are shown to be capable of murder... (though perhaps not for the reasons shown in EP7)

I remember when I first started reading Umineko and after EP1, I said that the most likely scenario is a 'Clue' like ending where it was shown that everyone ended up killing someone else. But of course the true mastermind was someone else...


So the idea of whether there's a true culprit or mastermind to me sounds like a question of whether there was a premeditated plan for murder... or was it just a bunch of people freaking out and killing each other? The latter doesn't sound like a proper mystery to me, so I go with the former. I think there's still a mastermind.

(And not Beatrice, I think.)
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Old 2010-12-03, 03:48   Link #19352
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Heh.

So, I guess I'm halfway through Ep 7, as I hit the end of the patch. Of course, I spoiled myself relentlessly, so while actually reading the scenes will provide a more concrete "feeling", I'm pretty caught up to what Ep 7 amounts to.

And, seriously ... am I the only person that's reading Yasu as just being Shannon?
I mean, JUST being Shannon? I mean, okay, maybe her name really is Yasu, and maybe there really was some other, older Shannon (although one of the last scenes in the 50% patch, to me, just seemed to imply that that Shannon was another fictional construct), but it feels the same as ... I dunno - how Jessica becomes "Jessie" at school. It's Shannon, isn't it? I can't read this person as a new character, I ONLY SEE SHANNON.

... also, Shannon's little blue screen moment when Will asked her to fetch Kanon, aside from being immensely creepy, seemed to effectively tighten the lid on Shkanon that the Love Duel placed there. Is there still any real resistance to Shkanon at this point? I'm curious.
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Old 2010-12-03, 03:54   Link #19353
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It seems to me that if there is a real culprit and the story as a whole is supposed to be solvable, then Beato must have been using "real" fragments from the cat box as a basis. Even if she edited in Shannon and Kanon and set them up to be the culprits, there's got to be some trace of the real culprit's presence in there somewhere. So, what if Beato's red truth was a tool to establish her own mystery, rather than the truth of the fragments she adapted? Is it still heretical to suggest that she might have ruled out the culprit in red in order to tighten up her own plot, while still leaving the effects of that person's actions visible?
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Old 2010-12-03, 06:46   Link #19354
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Heh.

So, I guess I'm halfway through Ep 7, as I hit the end of the patch. Of course, I spoiled myself relentlessly, so while actually reading the scenes will provide a more concrete "feeling", I'm pretty caught up to what Ep 7 amounts to.

And, seriously ... am I the only person that's reading Yasu as just being Shannon?
I mean, JUST being Shannon? I mean, okay, maybe her name really is Yasu, and maybe there really was some other, older Shannon (although one of the last scenes in the 50% patch, to me, just seemed to imply that that Shannon was another fictional construct), but it feels the same as ... I dunno - how Jessica becomes "Jessie" at school. It's Shannon, isn't it? I can't read this person as a new character, I ONLY SEE SHANNON.
I think it's blatantly obvious that Shannon is Yasu's imaginary friend.
To be perfectly clear... Yasu is Shannon, however Yasu doesn't feel aligned to her "Shannon self". "Yasu" is her core personality, while "Shannon" is what she wants to become. She basically separated her self from her wanted self.

There are a lot of hints of the fact that Yasu and Shannon are the same person.
For example "Yasu is the only one who isn't in a 3 persons room" (And what about Shannon?)
And "all the senior servants left so now Yasu is the only one who remained" (And what about Shannon?)

I think we can rest the case.

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... also, Shannon's little blue screen moment when Will asked her to fetch Kanon, aside from being immensely creepy, seemed to effectively tighten the lid on Shkanon that the Love Duel placed there. Is there still any real resistance to Shkanon at this point? I'm curious.
As far I can see, the resistance has been subsided almost completely. There are still people that doubt it, but there wasn't much arguing about that after EP7.

After EP6 it was a total war. Now it isn't even a guerrilla.
But maybe it's just because people are fed up with the continuing discussions, and EP7 didn't brought us definitive proofs of either situation, just more hints for Shkanon.

The problem is, that EP7 at the same time destroyed a lot of the various shkanon interpretations. You haven't reached that part yet but... yeah basically the situation is: "Shkanon practically confirmed, and it makes even less sense than before."
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Old 2010-12-03, 08:38   Link #19355
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... also, Shannon's little blue screen moment when Will asked her to fetch Kanon, aside from being immensely creepy, seemed to effectively tighten the lid on Shkanon that the Love Duel placed there. Is there still any real resistance to Shkanon at this point? I'm curious.
The biggest resistance to Shkanon was probably by Kanon fangirls who were bawwing over the idea that their little bishie servant boy didn't exist.

But Yasu could still be a guy, so there's still hope for them.
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Old 2010-12-03, 09:25   Link #19356
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You know, I think there are definitely culprits, but as we start to understand them 1 by 1, I think we've always looked past them to try and find the 'true culprit.' I don't think that there's none though. For some reason I think we still haven't heard from some other highly suspicious people... person... guy *cough*George*cough* yet for good reason.

But going back to what I was saying, if you look at the earlier episodes, Eva was definitely a culprit for killing Battler at least in EP3. And EP7 suggests that Kyrie had her own designs. In short, the siblings at the very least are shown to be capable of murder... (though perhaps not for the reasons shown in EP7)

I remember when I first started reading Umineko and after EP1, I said that the most likely scenario is a 'Clue' like ending where it was shown that everyone ended up killing someone else. But of course the true mastermind was someone else...


So the idea of whether there's a true culprit or mastermind to me sounds like a question of whether there was a premeditated plan for murder... or was it just a bunch of people freaking out and killing each other? The latter doesn't sound like a proper mystery to me, so I go with the former. I think there's still a mastermind.

(And not Beatrice, I think.)
I agree with everything here, I've seen other forums and image boards that would be content with a pseudo explanation that "You weren't suppose to find out who the culprit is just that everything was a love letter to Battler" and flat out believing that RK07 doesn't need to answer this in EP8. It would be a lazy solution to the whole plot and for something that has taken so long to develop it would be a horribly disappointing end IMO.

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The biggest resistance to Shkanon was probably by Kanon fangirls who were bawwing over the idea that their little bishie servant boy didn't exist.

But Yasu could still be a guy, so there's still hope for them.
My biggest gripe is having someone masquerading as two different people without anyone noticing it! Dont we have a rule against that?!
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Old 2010-12-03, 09:45   Link #19357
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It's not actually necessary that such a scenario play out for any episode. It's not actually necessary that there be two-people-as-one at any time either. Nor is it necessary that, were that true of an episode, that it be true of every episode.

So it's very possible the rule was never actually broken, and thus didn't need to be hinted at.
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Old 2010-12-03, 10:01   Link #19358
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My biggest gripe is having someone masquerading as two different people without anyone noticing it! Dont we have a rule against that?!
Currently I can only think of two possible ways to explain Yasu's second "world change".

1) Kanon is just Yasu's imaginary friend. Shannon was like that, Beatrice is also like that, so why Kanon should be any different? By this logic we can think that Kanon has always been nothing but an imaginary persona that Yasu created and placed in the real world.
It is still possible that Kanon later popped up for real, like for example during the cultural festival. It is possible that Shannon agreed to become Jessica's "boyfriend" for all the reasons that have been explained. It is also possible that Kanon was actually there on Rokkenjima prime as part of Yasu's grand plan.
The only problem with this perspective is that then we can't explain why everyone thinks that Kanon has been working for three years. Are all the adults in the conspiracy?

2) Yasu is maaaaad! And I mean completely mad. She can wake up one day and think she is a completely different person. You know those wacko who think they are Napoleon? Well same thing, except one day Yasu woke up thinking she was her own brother. Basically this would mean she is schizophrenic. Under such perspective we can imagine that the usual GENSAWAJO endeavors to cover Yasu's ass, and therefore helped her to live that double life without her even noticing.
This is somehow supported by EP5, where you can explain all the oddities related to Erika as Yasu suddenly thinking she is a detective.
The problem with this interpretation is that while schizophrenia can explain most of those odd behaviors (BTW psychotic people tend to be smarter than the average population if you didn't know. See John Nash.) It doesn't explain why Yasu is otherwise functioning perfectly like a normal person. realistically speaking a schizophrenic would inevitably give himself away. One would also wonder why Nanjo leaves her completely untreated, because there's been drugs for a while that would completely suppress psychosis (with awful side effects...).
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Old 2010-12-03, 10:13   Link #19359
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One would also wonder why Nanjo leaves her completely untreated, because there's been drugs for a while that would completely suppress psychosis (with awful side effects...).
If it's Ryukishi, I think a lobotomy would be the treatment of choice rather than drugs. But I'm basing that mostly off of Dr. Irie's character.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-12-03 at 10:32.
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Old 2010-12-03, 10:36   Link #19360
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There are a lot of hints of the fact that Yasu and Shannon are the same person.
For example "Yasu is the only one who isn't in a 3 persons room" (And what about Shannon?)
More specifically, the other servants ask "Why don't we do it 2 and 2?" That makes sense if there are a bunch of triple and one single.
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