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Old 2010-12-03, 11:20   Link #19361
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Currently I can only think of two possible ways to explain Yasu's second "world change".
Why not "imaginative flight of fancy punched up into apparent world change that may or may not have been later employed once or twice (such as at the cultural festival) then used as the basis for a character in a story?" If you just permit for Yasu as an author and Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice as her "furniture," she doesn't have to be insane at all. Not even remotely. In fact, it would be very difficult to even write the message bottle stories if one were insane.

It also means they can be whatever she wants them to be. Beatrice wandering around in a suit? Kanon and Shannon the same person, or not the same person? No problem. Hell, do one, then do the other. Or don't. They're fictional entities. Kanon can be a ninja if he wants (or more accurately, you want).

This could easily be the "key" that allows Hachijou to write a story and pass it off as "truth." After all, Hachijou most strongly claims the authorship of End and Dawn, which feature Erika. Erika is a fictional character; even if a real Furudo Erika existed, there's basically no chance she survived and if she did, no chance she was really a classical-molded detective. If you realize several characters in the story are entirely fictional, you know a Rokkenjima story can be written with an entirely new, entirely fictional character and retain that "truth" core to it. Granted, what this means to the original author's intent if she wanted it to be an actual message is another matter entirely.
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Old 2010-12-03, 12:20   Link #19362
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Could we say Kanon is jsut a character created to resolve Shannon's loneliness and latter written by Yasu into the story as a separate person? So inside the story (the episodes), he and SHannon are just two people, while on Rokkenjima-Prime, Kanon and Yasu are just imaginary beings by Shannon, which is what deduced by Hachijou.

Still it makes no sense if the police never discovered it and Ange did not know it if Kanon was non-existent in the real world.

So, could it be that, there is one Kanon as servent in the real world, but he was not close to Shannon at all and he was not on Rokkenjima on that day. The Kanon we know is just Shannon imagining him being like her little brother and wrote as such in the story?

Finally, I don't get the whole letters-in-the-bottle thing. If we consider what EP7 said as reliable. Then Shannon should have get over her love of Battler on 4th Oct, since considering all the episodes, Shannon was portrayed as in love with George, ready to marry him. So why on earth she was going to blow the island up?

Interpreting the letters-in-the-bottle as love letters to Battler sounds strange to me. Really, who can read those letters if thrown into the sea. Real Battler is not going to read it anyway. And why she ended the letters in the name of Maria and asked for help? This did not sound like a love letter but more a SOS message to me.

Some people may say she was being schizo, so she wanted to end things "happily" in a STORY while buried all real people in an explosion. Then why wrote two stories, and ended both EP1 and 2 with no good endings? And I don't think Ryu07 is really going to portray Shannon as such a schizo. Really if someone has such a detachment from reality and is going to kill a family along with innocent bystanders, then this someone should be immediately put in a hosital and locked up. Ryu07's mastermind is not to be this unsympatheticable. I can empathize with Takano but really not Yasu if she is just schizophrenic to cause the mass death.
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Old 2010-12-03, 12:33   Link #19363
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After I read And Then There were none I sort of saw the message bottles as a kind of throw back to the end of that book. I know people like to debate whether they were sent before, after, or during the Rokkenjima event, and I understand the interest, but I see it more as a literary theme than a point to fixate over.
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Old 2010-12-03, 12:46   Link #19364
Renall
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After I read And Then There were none I sort of saw the message bottles as a kind of throw back to the end of that book. I know people like to debate whether they were sent before, after, or during the Rokkenjima event, and I understand the interest, but I see it more as a literary theme than a point to fixate over.
I'd agree with you if Ange hadn't brought them up twice as important. Presumably ryukishi intended us to associate them with And Then There Were None at the end of ep1. Returning them to prominence as actual clues in ep4 means they are more than just a theme, and then dropping the Author Bomb in ep6 makes them not just essential clues, but possibly the most essential clues.
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Old 2010-12-03, 13:08   Link #19365
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If it's Ryukishi, I think a lobotomy would be the treatment of choice rather than drugs. But I'm basing that mostly off of Dr. Irie's character.
Oh lobotomy has been the remedy of choice to treat schizophrenia for a long time, and it worked quite good, too bad it also deprived the subjects from their higher intelligence.
But I think in 1986 they already stopped using that in favor of the new drugs that were discovered. I'm not even sure if lobotomy was ever done in Japan...


Quote:
Why not "imaginative flight of fancy punched up into apparent world change that may or may not have been later employed once or twice (such as at the cultural festival) then used as the basis for a character in a story?" If you just permit for Yasu as an author and Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice as her "furniture," she doesn't have to be insane at all. Not even remotely. In fact, it would be very difficult to even write the message bottle stories if one were insane.

It also means they can be whatever she wants them to be. Beatrice wandering around in a suit? Kanon and Shannon the same person, or not the same person? No problem. Hell, do one, then do the other. Or don't. They're fictional entities. Kanon can be a ninja if he wants (or more accurately, you want).
The problem is I think Shkanon needs to make sense also in a Rokkenjima prime context, because else, let's face it, it's just completely meaningless.

So if you want, you can choose option 1, but thinking that "shkanon is just fiction" imo isn't good enough. We should also not forget the fact that the "love duel" is a key factor to understand Yasu and all that she has done. Ryuukishi made this point in an interview and this concept has been reiterated again in EP7. If you want to have a chance to understand this whole mess you better start from the assumption that it all revolves around that "love duel" because clearly that's what Ryuukishi thinks.
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Old 2010-12-03, 13:16   Link #19366
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The problem is I think Shkanon needs to make sense also in a Rokkenjima prime context, because else, let's face it, it's just completely meaningless.
I don't think you're giving the fictional/metaphorical aspect enough credit, which if you're a Yasu fan merits considerable explanation as the entire purpose of justifying her value as a character derives from what she's created, not what she actually did during those two days (at least so far as we know, as what she actually did is unknowable and as ep7 shows, even if she planned something there's a chance she never executed that plan at all).

Her work is much more important than her actual actions. I frankly don't see how one can be pro-Yasu and anti-fiction - either by ignoring it, declaring it meaningless, or downplaying it to any extent - at all. It's absolutely necessary to advancing the legitimacy of the character. I'm the one who doesn't even like Yasu, and I can see that her proposed authorship is much more important than her backstory or what she "actually did" or who she actually cosplayed as.

I mean, you're being offered the golden goose here, a Shkanon that isn't blatantly ridiculous and doesn't rely on the Rokkenjima Prime people being idiots (because Yasu was Yasu on R-Prime, and even if Shkanon is true in fiction, fictional ignorance is more justifiable in the mystery medium).
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Old 2010-12-03, 13:31   Link #19367
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I mean, you're being offered the golden goose here, a Shkanon that isn't blatantly ridiculous and doesn't rely on the Rokkenjima Prime people being idiots (because Yasu was Yasu on R-Prime, and even if Shkanon is true in fiction, fictional ignorance is more justifiable in the mystery medium).
I think we have more than enough evidence now to say that Shkanon wouldn't be blatantly ridiculous. The only ridiculous thing is the motive, and I don't think we're given the full motive in EP7.

Krauss and Natsuhi have absolutely no say as to which Fukuin servants are hired and they don't handle how those servants get paid. Kinzo is in charge of the Fukuin servants, and even he leaves most of the details to Genji, who is also his contact with the leader of the Fukuin House. Remember, if the EP7 story is true, it was Genji who first proposed to have Yasu start work at a young age. Kinzo and Genji decide who works on the island at what times, and Natsuhi only directs the servants in specific tasks when she sees that something is dusty or needs fixing. It's Genji that's in charge of seeing that the everyday chores get done, so he could easily fix Shannon's and Kanon's schedules to make their paths not cross. Natsuhi never watches the servants as they do their jobs, you'll notice, but just checks their work after they've finished. Kumasawa is known for being lazy on the job, so she could be doing Kanon's part while Yasu carries out Shannon's and no one would notice except the other servants.

In EP7, Jessica admitted that, if she suspects all of the servants conspiring together for some huge plot, the idea is so unnerving that she would reject it and try not to think about it. So even if she did guess that Shkanon was true, she doesn't want to believe it, just like she doesn't want to believe that all the servants set up Beatrice pranks together. In fact, EP6 hints that Jessica did know or guess something about Kanon and Shannon 'planning to quit at the same time'.

Krauss hardly ever deals with the servants at all. It would be very strange for him to suspect anything. Natsuhi does call for the servants if she sees something that needs doing, but as EP5 shows us with the season card trick, Natsuhi is very easily tricked. After that trick, she was absolutely certain that person X knew what season she liked most, right? So, while she might have suspected that Shannon and Kanon were the same person at some point, just one or two well pulled-off closed room tricks would make her reject that theory.

The other servants could either be bought or just forced to leave the mansion if they looked like they were going to tell. I doubt any servant would complain about keeping the Shkanon secret if it meant getting a hundred thousand dollars or so.


In short, if Yasu and Genji and/or Kinzo really wanted to pull off Shkanon, they had more than enough power to do it.
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Old 2010-12-03, 13:36   Link #19368
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Oh lobotomy has been the remedy of choice to treat schizophrenia for a long time, and it worked quite good, too bad it also deprived the subjects from their higher intelligence.
But I think in 1986 they already stopped using that in favor of the new drugs that were discovered. I'm not even sure if lobotomy was ever done in Japan...
Well like I said I got that mostly from Dr. Irie. In Higurashi at least he practiced it at one point. Whether they actually did that in Japan I have no idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I really could be, but I think the value of Uniformity in Japan created a cultural barrier that made it so a lot of drug treatments weren't readily available in Japan for a long time. Because of their Hierarchical family values I think they would rather hide someone who is mentally ill from the world for not being normal than get them treatment for it.
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Old 2010-12-03, 14:05   Link #19369
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I can understand Renall's feelings, since I think I feel the same, even though I do like Yasu. Beatrice was always a grandiose character, and very strong woman. Even if she could display some degree of childishness at times, she was always the sort of character that always was on top. I think you could describe Beatrice as nothing less than magnificent.

However, ever since EP5, Beatrice's grandioseness kept on fading little by little. The more we went through Chiru, the more miserable she was turned into. Sure, one could say that it's understandable, since we're finally looking into the core of the mystery now. However, when Beatrice was, by herself, one of the biggest forces that moved this story and who motivated the readers to keep on reading, doing this to her is, in my opinion, rather insulting.

I've had the feeling that Beatrice hasn't been there at all in Chiru. IN EP5 there was nothing but a corpse, and Piece Beatrice didn't do anything interesting, other than looking miserable when Erika was kicking her ass. Moetrice ad Elder Sis Beatrice... no, simply no. And Yasu, as much as I love her, she's not the character that kept me reading from EP1 to EP4.
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Old 2010-12-03, 14:16   Link #19370
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I think the key to Beatrice's behavior in Chiru is in the EP4 Tea Party. Beato was exceptional at putting up an act, but these episodes have been absolutely key in showing just how much that act cost her and what suffering she was going through while maintaining an invincible facade. To me, that makes Beato even more impressive, not less.

The fact that when confronted with everything that would make her happy at the end of EP3, she thrust it away and fell back into her role as the villain because it would have been based on a lie...that's more impressive to me than the cackling "troll within a troll within a troll" that it appears to be at first glance. The EP4 Tea Party becomes excruciatingly tragic when viewed through the lenses of what we know about Chiru, as opposed to just sad but triumphant for Battler. Knowing that she so desperately wanted Battler to solve her riddle that she would take anything he tossed at her is something we only see the full magnitude through her sorrow in Chiru.

When someone is good at something naturally, I might feel admiration. But knowing someone went through a thousand years of sweat, blood, and tears to accomplish something and STILL came up short? Well, that makes me feel like Battler at the end of EP5.
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Old 2010-12-03, 17:58   Link #19371
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I can understand Renall's feelings, since I think I feel the same, even though I do like Yasu. Beatrice was always a grandiose character, and very strong woman. Even if she could display some degree of childishness at times, she was always the sort of character that always was on top. I think you could describe Beatrice as nothing less than magnificent.
...And a complete lie. Knowing this, there's no way we can avoid seeing the real Beato, and there's no way Beato can be as epic as her facade, because that'd be redundant.

Basically, we're Battler, and we were enchanted by a perfect, but imaginary woman. The fact that we don't want to let that lie go testifies to how powerful and successful that lie was, but it has to go.
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Old 2010-12-03, 22:49   Link #19372
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It may have been a lie, but rather than looking down at Beatrice for that, my point is I didn't like how R07 had to make Beatrice look so weak in order to make her even more sympathetic. Beatrice was already sympathetic if you understood her character back during the core arcs.

I understand the point is to show Beatrice's background and how she came to be, but I don't think R07 had to strip her of her grandioseness to do it. Why not explain her background like still portraying her like a strong, magnificent woman? Of course, I'm not saying Yasu is not strong, since she dealt with her issues in her own way, but her development is the "pity me" type of development.

I'm just purely stating my tastes here though. So, this is not actual criticism.
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Old 2010-12-03, 23:38   Link #19373
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I'm not sure it is entirely a 'pity me' setup. Sure, Yasu's story is a sad and lonely one, but it looks like she managed to find a lot of happiness in life. That whole thing with pranking Berune, for example.

Yasu's responsibility as the longest-serving Fukuin servant was to make sure the other servants didn't slack off, but they were slacking off and being flat-out disrespectful and mean. Yes, the pranks she played on Berune were also mean, but look at the result. By the time Berune started making offerings to the Beato doll and all that stuff, she was taking her job much more seriously, the pranks had stopped (so she wasn't being bullied back anymore)... And most importantly, she and Yasu became friends.

In other words, while Yasu's methods were unorthodox, she earned the friendship of a bully and fulfilled her responsibility as the most experienced servant. By sharing her imaginary world with someone else, she gave them both a sense of purpose.

Thanks to the message bottles, Yasu was able to share her story with millions of people. Both the story of the magic itself, and also her ability as a mystery writer. Sharing those things was the most important part of her life while she was alive.

So, in the end, I don't think Yasu would want to be pitied. Instead, she would want to be remembered as a great author, both on the mystery side and the magic side. In other words, she did succeed in becoming Beatrice, in the end. The moral of this story isn't "let's feel sorry for this poor, abused kid", it's "even though she died young, her life wasn't meaningless, and she created a mystery that millions tried to solve". There are scenes in EP4 and EP7 about what defines a successful life, and I think that's the point here.

Or, I could be entirely wrong ^^; I think that makes sense though.
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Old 2010-12-03, 23:57   Link #19374
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Yeah, all the things you've said is why I love Yasu. However, my problem is not with Yasu herself. If Yasu was her own character - i.e. completely unrelated to Beatrice - I wouldn't be slightly dissatisfied as I am now - of course, I'm not entirely dissatisfied since, as I've said, I do like Yasu, and I'll take her as Beatrice any day over plain ol' boring Shannon.

My point here is about personality traits and strength of character. Not only that, but the presence a character has in the story. Beatrice was always strong in all of those. She always had this air of magnificence around her - despite some bursts of childishness and slight vulgarity. However, no matter how interesting Yasu's story may be, the... weight and strength that you could feel with Beatrice, in my opinion, is simply not there. They are just two different characters. Of course, had Yasu grown up into a person with a personality and behaviour like Beatrice's, I wouldn't be complaining at all, since that would would have kept Beatrice. However, the fact is, Yasu, in that regard, is not like Beatrice. She may role-play as Beatrice, but she isn't like her.
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Old 2010-12-04, 00:25   Link #19375
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Of course, had Yasu grown up into a person with a personality and behaviour like Beatrice's, I wouldn't be complaining at all, since that would would have kept Beatrice. However, the fact is, Yasu, in that regard, is not like Beatrice. She may role-play as Beatrice, but she isn't like her.
Well, I definitely can't prove it, since there's little about Yasu that we know for a fact, but I think there's a good case to be made for Yasu being a lot like meta-Beatrice. After all, the thing that made her happiest was the first time she tricked Berune into thinking that magic existed. While in front of Berune, she played the part of poor, fellow-cursed-servant Yasu, but on the inside, she was clearly thinking: "Just try and solve this closed room. You can't, can you? Then give up and accept magic." And enjoying the whole thing immensely.

Yasu never acts like meta-Beatrice in front of anyone, as far as we know, but it's the only way to explain why she's been pulling the witch pranks for so long. And it would take someone as strong, bold, and audacious as Beatrice to take the big risks needed to pull of some of those pranks. It would take someone who could plan everything ahead in detail (which we know Beatrice did, from EP6), and who was capable of moving quickly and surely if needed (again, EP6 shows us that Beatrice needed to be flexible when fighting with Battler).

EP7 mostly shows us the weak sides of Yasu. It starts slow with what happened before she became a witch, when she was less than ten years old, and continues until the first bit of magic. It then completely switches over to the "love" Shannon felt for Battler, even though it's likely that Beatrice's pranks were going on the whole time. Then, once Shannon gives up on Battler, we see almost nothing of Beatrice's thoughts for 3 whole years before the crime. I think there's another side to Yasu that EP7 clearly skims over.
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Old 2010-12-04, 00:33   Link #19376
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I understand the point is to show Beatrice's background and how she came to be, but I don't think R07 had to strip her of her grandioseness to do it. Why not explain her background like still portraying her like a strong, magnificent woman? Of course, I'm not saying Yasu is not strong, since she dealt with her issues in her own way, but her development is the "pity me" type of development.
A question: If Yasu was already a strong, magnificent woman, why would she even need to become Beatrice in the first place? What does she have to gain from it, and what is she trying to avoid? Is being Blonde THAT much of an issue?

I can't help but feel that there's a bit of dissonance here; people want Beatrice's personality to be real, but they also want to see the real person behind her, who can't be Beatrice by definition? Why does she need to become Beatrice if all the same basic parts are already present in her normal, everyday identity?
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Old 2010-12-04, 01:16   Link #19377
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EP7 mostly shows us the weak sides of Yasu. It starts slow with what happened before she became a witch, when she was less than ten years old, and continues until the first bit of magic. It then completely switches over to the "love" Shannon felt for Battler, even though it's likely that Beatrice's pranks were going on the whole time. Then, once Shannon gives up on Battler, we see almost nothing of Beatrice's thoughts for 3 whole years before the crime. I think there's another side to Yasu that EP7 clearly skims over.
I was actually thinking the same thing, and in the few moments we saw Yasu alone (during 1984, when she was 17), she did show some of Beatrice's fickleness. But aside from that, she was still Yasu in many respects. At the very least, that's what I'm able to get from the scenes in which we got to see her.

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A question: If Yasu was already a strong, magnificent woman, why would she even need to become Beatrice in the first place? What does she have to gain from it, and what is she trying to avoid? Is being Blonde THAT much of an issue?
I think this is where Yasu's inferiority complex kicks in. She's never really seen herself as a strong person, but rather as a pathetic one. In addition, no matter what she may want to be like, her outward behaviour is really tame. That's why, when Battler told her that his type were girls like Jessica, she wanted to become Beatrice even more.

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I can't help but feel that there's a bit of dissonance here; people want Beatrice's personality to be real, but they also want to see the real person behind her, who can't be Beatrice by definition? Why does she need to become Beatrice if all the same basic parts are already present in her normal, everyday identity?
I think some people wanted the personality and behaviour to remain the same, even if the outward appearance was completely different. Even if Yasu is rather intelligent and good with puzzles, her personality is still too tame and rather innocent to even begin to compare her with Beatrice's aggressive, sniggering attitude and maliciousness (not as in ill-intended, but adult-like).

Yeah... I think attitude is, perhaps, the biggest difference between them.
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Old 2010-12-04, 01:18   Link #19378
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Hey all, finally got around to getting another account since my old one got lost.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
A question: If Yasu was already a strong, magnificent woman, why would she even need to become Beatrice in the first place? What does she have to gain from it, and what is she trying to avoid? Is being Blonde THAT much of an issue?

I can't help but feel that there's a bit of dissonance here; people want Beatrice's personality to be real, but they also want to see the real person behind her, who can't be Beatrice by definition? Why does she need to become Beatrice if all the same basic parts are already present in her normal, everyday identity?
The thing is, if Yasu went around acting like Beatrice in the real world, she'd be MUCH worse off. It's the whole 'persona' thing. People never act like who they really are. Yasu acts like 'the perfect, obedient, timid servant' AKA Shannon because that's what's expected of her in her position. But at heart, she's a strong girl that loves mystery novels, worries immensely about love, and wants people to acknowledge her, using tricks to prove she has the ability to be someone.

She's exactly what Beatrice is.

So Shannon is the face she puts on, Beatrice is her inner self that she wishes someone would see, and Kanon is an imaginary friend created to be the only one who understands her.

Her whole 'story' is created so that the one person she truly wants to have see who she really is can see- Battler. She wants him to realize that she's not Shannon, she's not Kanon, she's not Beatrice- all three of them are different parts of her. "Oh, I am one yet many".



Also, it's the only reason why I accept Shkanontrice now. Ryuukishi came up with the one way to make it that isn't horribly freaking stupid. The Ep6 version where Shannon was an insane troll doing everything for no reason and magically switching personalities was so absurdly unbelievable and against Meta-Beatrice's character that I just couldn't accept it.


EDIT: Yeah, as Used Can said, despite what Yasu shows with her actions, she really does believe herself inferior. Beatrice was constantly worried that Battler wouldn't like what he saw when he saw 'the real her', this is evident in every Episode, but especially 3 and 4... but still took that bold chance that he might like her.
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Old 2010-12-04, 05:00   Link #19379
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I’d like to put down my understanding of Beatrice, and Yasu’s conception of life, and how Umineko presents reality.

Thinking about Yasu and how he links with the identity we know of as Beatrice has reminded me of how I've thought about perceptions around other people. To understand how I think about Yasu's situation and perception on life, let me elaborate…

When I have conversations in real life; I'll think about, or pay attention to what the other person is probably thinking about while they are in the process of making decisions in their moment to moment actions or thoughts. When applied to yourself, your thinking mind is kind of something outside your body that’s experiencing everything. Think of it in the form of your different wants, feelings, emotions and general flow of conscious thought. This is the kind cognitive presence that intuitively feels like something very real, but isn't a kind of physical sense of two bodies in a room somewhere. I’m just finishing a first year philosophy course called the Meaning of Life, and it frequently talks about the human self. I could look around a room and think of everyone there as ‘thought beings’ that have control over and present themselves through their bodies. If you look at Umineko’s Meta world from the perspective of ‘thought beings’, it starts to give it a clearer atmosphere.

Think about your thought process right now, exactly what is going on in your head. Whatever you are thinking about right now as you read this sentence. It's a very personal kind of metaphysical 'reality' if you will, but it's something that is definitely there, based on the idea of something else that perceives as I do. This is how I imagine or understand how Yasu perceives life. Now think about, if on this abstract level, there were other ‘thought beings’, which had their own stream of consciousness, but were unconnected to a body. It’s not that much of a stretch, but this is going even farther then Yasu originally takes it. Yasu only ever interacts with creations of herself, rather only other ‘thought beings’ who are also intimately linked to her ‘Yasu body’.

To make it more clear, lets imagine, or rather assume that there is a plane, at the level of the human reasoning, thinking and consciousness. As of right now, everyone only knows of ourselves, our own consciousness. But lets assuming this is an actual plane of existence where we all exist as thought beings. On this plane alone, lets say you don’t need a body to exist. This is the space that Bern and Lambda find themselves drifting through, happening upon Beatrice’s Gameboard. This is the plane of our reality that I can conceive that Yasu ‘creates’ his other thought beings. I can conceive that Clair, Shannon, Beatrice and maybe even Kanon are different thought beings all pertaining to Yasu himself, as we are to our own bodies.

[Note: I personally rather imagine Yasu as a him; since I personally prefer that scenario, and, I feel it puts different kinds of thoughts or outlooks on what I imagine is going through his mind, overarching this plane]

This idea can be applied to every single character we’ve seen throughout Umineko in every situation. I believe everyone, every character that is shown is representing that character’s ‘thought being’ (again; just as we are to our own bodies) or other ‘created’ thought beings through other characters that exist on this level of the mind, intertwined with reality. Gaap, Beatrice, Clair, Zepar, Furfur, Shannon and Kanon are all connected to Yasu also well as to the foundation of the whole setting of Umineko and the idea of the personified Knox and Dine rules. Beatrice, as an extension of Yasu, would have an even further subset with the goats, stakes etc. Maria would be connected to Sakutarou and herself, Kumasawa with Virgilia and herself, Genji with Ronove and himself and Bern with Erika. Every other character, for example, would only have their single ‘thought being’, as shown.

I won't say that I think the Meta world is an exact representation of our own reality, obviously. I’ll just tell you that it’s an idea that’s not very far-fetched.
I could seriously be in a room full of people and think of them in terms of their thought processes, or perceptions/consciousness (what I started calling ‘thought beings’, for the sake of discussing Umineko) instead of just ‘them’ or their bodies. This is what I mean, and it’s a very real part of reality.

Then the fascinating part of Yasu’s character, as was previously discussed, for me is how she has literally created, or morphed out some kind of reality landscape (through the idea of ‘Beatrice’s Gameboard’) where people’s thought beings are able to go through logic battles, emotions, puzzle solving, duels, love etc. I view the logic battles much in the same way as how people play chess. Your mind is thinking about what it’s going to do, while actively accounting for what the other person will be thinking to progress. This kind of very, very real intellectual interactions between people is the base of what I view the logic battles as…
Only these intellectual interactions are happening actually on the plane of existent that the thinking part of the mind is on, and being completely situated there, they can face and argue with each other; they have more freedom in how they duel. There isn’t the restriction of only being able to go 3 moves ahead of the chess game in their mind, possibly not being able to remember enough to think farther ahead, only to have revise and rethink the process after the opponent does a single move. Being stuck and connected with the ‘reality’ of the situation. Here, the two thought beings can just face each other and argue over the game, knowing and remembering everything that has happened, and outsmart each other. They can even argue face to face with the author of a mystery and duke it out.

This is how I feel that every single person or being shown in Umineko exists continuously, whether or not they remember anything from any of what we want to call Kakera. From this notion of everything just being on the plane of where people’s thinking minds reside, it’s all continuous. I know this thought has been mentioned before, but from this point of view, we really could almost say that we ourselves exist in the same level as the characters in Umineko, with the whole story of 07th Expansion’s Umineko no Naku Koro ni being a ‘reality landscape’ for us as thought beings to view in on, just as Beatrice’s Gameboard is a ‘reality landscape’ for those thought beings to appear in, or look into. But keeping the structure of reality to only inside Umineko, this I feel is an incredible representation. I truly, truly feel satisfied with everything that has happened in the series. From this point of view, everything is meaningful. From this point of view, I really feel like we don’t really need to know anything about any kind of Rokkenjima Prime. Its significance is minuscule compared to the amount of depth Umineko already has. And I truly mean that.

I really want to discuss this with everyone, and have no intention of arguing at all. Please try to understand my view and give me your thoughts.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2010-12-17 at 12:57.
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Old 2010-12-04, 08:34   Link #19380
kiby
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: paris france
I could not read the whole post but....I do have a question^^

Would you say that thouse characters "live" on "our mind" as they are born from Yasu's and Hachijô's stories?

They would exist because we like them and treated em like "part of the process" ...
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