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Old 2010-12-04, 09:41   Link #19381
CrystalStarlight95
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I have to say, this theory is extremely impressive. I give you thumbs up~!

I'm still a little lost, though. Are you suggesting that Yasu just brilliantly thought up Umineko in her head (in a nutshell)? And that most of the characters (Such a Virgilia and Ronove) represent people in the REAL REAL world?

Okay, this is another question about Yasu:

EP7 is a complete alternate reality where Natsuhi DID NOT reject the baby Kinzo had given her. Thus, 19 years later, we have Yasu...And I think she's 19 years old. But...we have Lion! So...I know one event can put things in motion a long time before another event (Ex: Battler's Sin) but how would Yasu be put in the world if Natushi didn't kill the baby? Is she actually older and she was the maid with the baby? Could Yasu be Asumu's baby, the real Battler? Haha, just wondering~
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Old 2010-12-04, 10:47   Link #19382
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
EP7 is a complete alternate reality where Natsuhi DID NOT reject the baby Kinzo had given her. Thus, 19 years later, we have Yasu...And I think she's 19 years old. But...we have Lion! So...I know one event can put things in motion a long time before another event (Ex: Battler's Sin) but how would Yasu be put in the world if Natushi didn't kill the baby? Is she actually older and she was the maid with the baby? Could Yasu be Asumu's baby, the real Battler? Haha, just wondering~
Spoiler for size:


Then again, there's another way. Remember Bern's talk about there being no miracles? Presumably because writing in things like "fate" and "it was all a miracle" is more or less an easy way out for a writer. Plus, Umineko tells us that magic (or falsehoods mixed with truth) is what creates miracles. Yet we're told that Lion survived the fall by a miracle.

Look at it this way: if Lion died in that fall, would any of EP7 be different? Genji's apparent goal in bringing Yasu to the island was so that Kinzo could see his child one last time before he died. Presumably, he felt sorry for Kinzo when he saw how much Beatrice 2 and Lion's deaths destroyed him. Even if Lion actually died, Genji could still give Kinzo peace before death only by making him think that Lion was alive.

So, if Genji had a motive for faking Lion's age and making him a servant, he had just as strong a motive to find another kid entirely and make Kinzo think it was Lion. Yasu wouldn't know the difference, so her reaction would be exactly the same as we're shown in EP7. And, there are actually two kids in the story who might have been 'the child' Genji chose.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-12-04 at 11:07.
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Old 2010-12-04, 11:09   Link #19383
CrystalStarlight95
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Hmm...okay...So Genji decided to bring a child to the island and make Kinzo think he/she was Lion. Are you saying that the child could've been Yasu? Who's the second one you're talking about? (gah, sorry, so stupid -_-)

I just as we speak (FINALLY) managed to get EP7 english patch to work. So I'll start reading it, and maybe it'll make me smarter xD
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Old 2010-12-04, 11:21   Link #19384
chronotrig
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The first Yasu candidate would probably be Asumu's Battler, since that kid should be exactly the right age.

However, we know that Genji supposedly faked the age of "Lion", saying that Yasu was three years younger than Lion should have been. But how exactly would you trick a child like this? I'm sure it's possible, but it would have taken some work. What if Genji noticed how much Lion's death hurt Kinzo and made up his mind to find a new child a few years later? At this point in time, only Genji and Nanjo know for sure that Lion is dead, and while Genji seems to be working to help Kinzo die happily, we don't really know what Nanjo's motives for doing this much are.

They could have chosen an orphan from somewhere, but the only other plausible possibility is that they took a kid from the Nanjo family (unless Genji has a wife hidden away somewhere). By choosing someone from Nanjo's family, they would be able to tell the whole story without risk of exposure. We don't know what kind of man Nanjo's son was, but while this would mean not being able to raise his daughter, it would also mean that daughter would become richer than his wildest dreams. What better way to ensure your child's future? ...Or so he might have reasoned. Plus, being the biological father of a kid like that would probably mean an easy life for him as well. On top of that, the point of this whole plan is to let a poor, sad, old man die in peace. If he was blinded by money, he had plenty of excuses to convince himself that it was morally not so bad. And, in the EP4 scenes, it seems clear that he has something to hide. It's also clear that he claims his daughter died at some time from sickness, which would be helpful for explaining the absence of his daughter now.
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Old 2010-12-04, 11:36   Link #19385
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I'm not sure if this has been said, but after reading the EP7 patch I'm starting to think that Shannon is responsible for the fake First Twilights.
The "murders" do not begin until Battler returns to Rokkenjima. Why?
Because Shannon plans the fake murders in order to test Battler's ability to solve the mystery. After all, it's known that Yasu loved reading mystery novels. Umineko could just be based off of "And Then There Were None" (which has been directly alluded to).

However, Battler's absence meant that Shannon didn't have anyone to talk to about mystery. When Battler returns, Shannon begins the fake First Twilight.

Kyrie takes advantage of the situation and uses the fake First Twilight as a coverup for herself. She actually is the "culprit" but Shannon is the one who wants to play a game with Battler and sets up the impossible crimes.


Heck, I might even take this one step further:

Perhaps Shannon planned ALL of the murders, but didn't intend them to be real. In fact, she NEVER discovers that the victims are actually dead. Kyrie takes the "closed room puzzles" and actually turns them in to murder cases.

Shannon could have planned to make this all "A real life mystery", and knowing Battler's experience with the mystery genre, she knew he would take the role of detective.
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Old 2010-12-04, 11:49   Link #19386
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Interesting. I never thought of Kyrie as the culprit.

......
......
......
....Wait, why would Kyrie be the culprit? ._. Like Will says in the beginning of EP7, there must be heart in a crime. (Lol, I'm reading it right now xD)
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Old 2010-12-04, 13:08   Link #19387
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Kyrie and George have been speculated to be the culprit for a while. They are the ones who most frequently get pointed at.

The reason is that they both gave signs of being capable of murder. George technically could also have a motive. Jealousy can drive people insane, and we know that Shannon actually loves Battler.

Kyrie is suspicious for leaving Ange at home, and considering the Sumadera are in the bigger picture it's easy to imagine she planned the incident as a way to divert the vast Ushiromiya wealth into the Sumadera's cash. Although, can she be so much determined as to kill herself and her husband?

Krauss is also a potential culprit if he lied about his last investments proceeding well. He might have decided to kill all the family to avoid the shame of exposing the truth of his failures. However does Krauss even possess the necessary resolution? Krauss also lacks the "murderous intent" hints that the other have.
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Old 2010-12-04, 13:25   Link #19388
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Ushiromiya Krauss is not the culprit. And he was killed long ago, shortly after you heard his voice over the phone, get it?

Of course this is for episode 5 and not for the other ones, but if there is only one universal culprit then yeah he should be discarded. Kyrie and George fit the mold though at least the human mold of murdering because of love or gold.
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Old 2010-12-04, 13:25   Link #19389
CrystalStarlight95
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Well, out of the two, I'm more suspicious of George than I am of Kyrie. As for Krauss, for some reason I find him too cowardly or even smart enough to kill everyone.

What about Rosa and Rudolf? Could one of them be capable?
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Old 2010-12-04, 13:34   Link #19390
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In one of the scenarios I described yeah, Rosa would be the prime suspect in EP2 and even in EP1, the EP1 scenario though could be re-enacted with any of the people inside the shed during the first twilight though.

Rudolph I dont know, he isn't a predominant character the way Rosa or Nats , Eva are. He is more backgroundish .
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Old 2010-12-04, 13:39   Link #19391
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
It may have been a lie, but rather than looking down at Beatrice for that, my point is I didn't like how R07 had to make Beatrice look so weak in order to make her even more sympathetic. Beatrice was already sympathetic if you understood her character back during the core arcs.

I understand the point is to show Beatrice's background and how she came to be, but I don't think R07 had to strip her of her grandioseness to do it. Why not explain her background like still portraying her like a strong, magnificent woman? Of course, I'm not saying Yasu is not strong, since she dealt with her issues in her own way, but her development is the "pity me" type of development.

I'm just purely stating my tastes here though. So, this is not actual criticism.
I have to agree with you, but I think this is cultural. Beatrice (and to an extent, Beatrice Castiglioni) have a certain western swagger because they're created to be characters with that exotic bearing. It's not really larger than life (though Beatrice utilizes it to push it there), at least not to a western audience; but I think to the Japanese audience it's "over the top" and the "real face" behind Beatrice has to be... well... for lack of a charitable description, "safer."

While I'd hesitate to characterize Yasu as submissive, her portrayal is more in line with what I suspect a Japanese audience would expect. The problem is that Beatrice as portrayed is not that far off from a perfectly acceptable strong female character to a western audience, where the native audience expects she needs to be toned down to be "humanized."

Personally, I find it pretty distasteful and think it sort of makes Battler look kind kind of a dick with unrealistic expectations (where if he actually saw hints of what he wanted at least he'd be romantic). But whatever, if I were looking to Japanese culture for particular preferred values I'd be barking up the wrong tree entirely. I can live with disappointment, but I stand by it not squaring up.
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Look at it this way: if Lion died in that fall, would any of EP7 be different? Genji's apparent goal in bringing Yasu to the island was so that Kinzo could see his child one last time before he died. Presumably, he felt sorry for Kinzo when he saw how much Beatrice 2 and Lion's deaths destroyed him. Even if Lion actually died, Genji could still give Kinzo peace before death only by making him think that Lion was alive.

So, if Genji had a motive for faking Lion's age and making him a servant, he had just as strong a motive to find another kid entirely and make Kinzo think it was Lion. Yasu wouldn't know the difference, so her reaction would be exactly the same as we're shown in EP7. And, there are actually two kids in the story who might have been 'the child' Genji chose.
Yes, exactly. The baby does not even need to exist. What matters as concerns Yasu is that Yasu believes him/herself to be that baby enough that Kinzo believes it.

Lion himself can be someone else entirely or no one at all; that is, just a made up hypothetical person. We have contradictory testimony as to whether the baby story is even true, and even if it is no evidence that (1) it would ever have actually been accepted by Natsuhi if it existed, and (2) there was even the remotest possibility it could have survived. Who says a baby existed?
  • Natsuhi, when she's not saying the opposite.
  • Kinzo, who is the most fictionalized "real person" character in the whole series.
  • Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo, who are fundamentally untrustworthy and growing only moreso by the episode as the web of things the three of them are in on without telling anyone expands. Nanjo in particular has allegedly known all three Beatrices and is in effectively every single group or faction. And spoken not a word of anything he knows. I still don't think he's a bad person, but he's got a hell of a lot of secrets at this point.
Having said that, I depart with you in that I don't think it's actually relevant who Yasu is. It's one of those whole "unknowable truth" things that's been thematically part of the series from the start. We can't know any of this backstory is true, and not even Yasu can know it. After all, he/she has no idea what really happened when born, if the story sounds right why not believe it? And honestly I don't think that there's enough evidence to suggest any theory of Yasu's origin, including the one he/she appears to believe, is definitively correct. There's as little evidence for the Natsuhi Baby thing as any plausible alternative.

Unless ep8 comes down on it, or at least provides some definitive evidence, I'm not sure how we'd be sure of any of it. But under current parameters, I'm not sure it really makes a difference. It doesn't change what Yasu ends up thinking is true, and I don't see how anyone would have the ability to present to her evidence to the contrary short of Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo admitting out of the blue that they lied about something.
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Old 2010-12-04, 14:30   Link #19392
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Keiraku, just wanted to say that I really appreciate the philosophical/thematic/world view opinions you post! I feel that is an aspect of umineko that ryu takes seriously yet doesn't get much attention from mystery theorizing points of view.

Spoiler for Long rant on the obvious:
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:08   Link #19393
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Originally Posted by kiby View Post
I could not read the whole post but....I do have a question^^

Would you say that thouse characters "live" on "our mind" as they are born from Yasu's and Hachij˘'s stories?

They would exist because we like them and treated em like "part of the process" ...
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the question, but for the sakes of our reality, Umineko is obviously a step down. I just compared it to us since in my view it could be an extension of our kind of reality (though from the perspective looking in on the 'thought plane' instead of through our own bodies). In our reality, Umineko does not 'exist' on this level because everything is very obviously just scripted and choreographed, such as a 'play' if you will, instead of the characters actually acting out these things from their own wills. But I think in story all the characters have equal level of existence, atleast of this 'thought' plane.

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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
I have to say, this theory is extremely impressive. I give you thumbs up~!

I'm still a little lost, though. Are you suggesting that Yasu just brilliantly thought up Umineko in her head (in a nutshell)? And that most of the characters (Such a Virgilia and Ronove) represent people in the REAL REAL world?
First, I'm suggesting that Yasu looks at or perceives other people in terms of their minds (thinking, motivations, reasoning etc.), in every day to day actions, that she doesn't tie people down and think about them in terms of their bodies.

Second, I believe that instead of only having a single 'self' to her body, she has multiple selves, that all exist on this 'thought plane' (which is a hypothetical place where all selves exist, but are intimately tied to our bodies as we know it). It seems that some overarching aspect of Yasu has control to change and manipulate these selves, but they seem to have their own will, desires, reasoning etc.

Third, I think that now we can view all events through out the series (except non-'magic' flashbacks and future events, I guess) as events unfolding on this thought realm. I consider Beatrice's Gameboard as a place abstracted from the 'normal world'; a place everyone is connected to a body, and instead this is a playground, if you will, for the selves to experience and clash. This is why the events of the 2 days so quickly go from seemingly normal to crazy magic scenes, because all of it exists there. I say that Yasu has the most control over this space, and has set it up as a fun mystery game to play with Battler, where Knox and Dine rules already exist to call upon, due to her tastes. This would be the idea, that thought though they didn't show up until the core arcs, Virigillia and Ronove repeated that Bern and Lamba weren't doing anything that was not allowed on the Gameboard by bringing them in. This would be a space where he allows his other selves (Shannon and Kanon) on a fundamental level to have happiness with the 'selves' of George and Jessica. At the same time, Gaap gets to play around with the corpses and hiding stuff all the while, Beatrice gets to have her overarching mystery duel between author and challenger with Battler.

Sorry, to answer your question directly, Kumamsawa, Genji, Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa etc. are all the 'bodies' of the thought beings if you will. But on the space of the thought plane, some of them also have other selves (like Yasu) along side their 'normal' or fundamental selves. So Ronove and Genji are both parts of Genji that have their own will and freedom to do what they want separately on the level of the thought plane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alarmadadna hadi View Post
Keiraku, just wanted to say that I really appreciate the philosophical/thematic/world view opinions you post! I feel that is an aspect of umineko that ryu takes seriously yet doesn't get much attention from mystery theorizing points of view.

Spoiler for Long rant on the obvious:
Thank you, alarmadadna, because at times it did feel like nobody took the time to think about my theories. But I completely agree, I think it's something that Ryuukishi has in mind a lot. You have an interesting take on the situation, but I'd rather take is as all of those things exist together in one cohesive reality. Though it's certainly possible to thinking about them in their different parts.

I originally made that post to show a way that Yasu's world can be completely cohesive and a part of reality as we know it.

Last edited by Keriaku; 2010-12-04 at 15:49.
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:20   Link #19394
Used Can
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Look at it this way: if Lion died in that fall, would any of EP7 be different? Genji's apparent goal in bringing Yasu to the island was so that Kinzo could see his child one last time before he died. Presumably, he felt sorry for Kinzo when he saw how much Beatrice 2 and Lion's deaths destroyed him. Even if Lion actually died, Genji could still give Kinzo peace before death only by making him think that Lion was alive.

So, if Genji had a motive for faking Lion's age and making him a servant, he had just as strong a motive to find another kid entirely and make Kinzo think it was Lion. Yasu wouldn't know the difference, so her reaction would be exactly the same as we're shown in EP7. And, there are actually two kids in the story who might have been 'the child' Genji chose.
That could work, however:

1. Beatrice has got to be 19 - EP5, EP6 and EP7 have pretty much left almost no room to argue this - and all the references we've got for that number point to 1967. If you're bringing some double, then I think you'll have to add clues foreshadowing his/her existence. The other Battler cannot be 19, because 1. He's got to be the same age as Battler and 2. I'm sure we can say for sure Battler's age is 18, since I'm rather sure we do not have any serious evidence about his birth date being fake.

2. The serious injury Yasu mentioned in EP7. She said it was due to the fall, meaning that Genji and Nanjo did tell her about this accident. Unless we go by the idea that Yasu happened to, coincidentally, have some bad injury and those two just decided to lie to her to make all fit, then I think there's no way the baby died in that fall.

Why could Yasu and Shannon be in the same place at the same time? I think that can be answered rather easily by saying that, at that point, Shannon was merely a figment of Yasu's imagination - notice that the first group of servants do not seem to notice Shannon at all - at the very least, not when Yasu is around. Shannon talks to them at times, but not even once do they reply to her.

The reason why Shannon and Kanon cannot be together at the same time is because Yasu is role-playing them. There's a difference between imagining characters and actually playing them as characters.
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:29   Link #19395
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We're not even specifically sure of the injury's nature. And again, Yasu has no way of knowing where it came from if he/she doesn't remember getting it. Of course, it would be a coincidence to an extreme if Yasu just happened to have a random injury, but we don't even know if Yasu is injured, or merely believes him/herself to be. Then too, I'm sure if Genji and Nanjo looked hard enough for a kid that roughly fit the description they could get one.

Still, the point is, we don't know the baby survived the fall, we don't know there was a baby, and we don't know Yasu was that baby. For the Yasu story to be exactly as presented, all those implausible things must be true. However, for Yasu to think him/herself those things, none of these needs to be true.
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:43   Link #19396
CrystalStarlight95
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So, I just learned in EP7, (reading it right now) Will says that Lion was the result of if Natsuhi did not reject the baby. We know that much, but then he says that if he "disappeared" in the beginning, then Beatrice would come up, then. Lion suggested their like two sides of a coin, the witch on one side and he/she on the other (Btw, I got sooo angry when Lion didn't reveal his gender xD)

Anyway, are they trying to say that Lion and the "Beatrice" are the same? To put it direct:

- If Natsuhi accepted the baby, he/she would grow up to be Lion
- If she didn't, the baby could've still survived, and grew up to be Yasu, thus becoming the witch as they put it.
- Or the baby died, thus somebody else became the witch.

So, I'm thinking that Lion, Yasu and Beatrice III are all the same. Am I wrong? :O
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:48   Link #19397
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We're not even specifically sure of the injury's nature.
Whatever it may be, it's serious enough to make Yasu flip and think of herself as non-human. Whether it is visible or not, it doesn't matter, since Yasu either didn't know or didn't care about it, before Genji and Nanjo informed her of it and its effects on her body.

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And again, Yasu has no way of knowing where it came from if he/she doesn't remember getting it. Of course, it would be a coincidence to an extreme if Yasu just happened to have a random injury, but we don't even know if Yasu is injured, or merely believes him/herself to be. Then too, I'm sure if Genji and Nanjo looked hard enough for a kid that roughly fit the description they could get one.
Why would them tell her about it then? If Yasu is not the baby that fell from the cliff, then why tell her she's got an injury from that fall? If she's a fake that happened that have a serious injury, again, why tell her she got it from that fall? I think it is safe to say she learned about this after Kinzo's death. So, unless Genji and Nanjo decided to be massive dicks and lie to her about this injury, then I don't think this makes much sense.

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So, I'm thinking that Lion, Yasu and Beatrice III are all the same. Am I wrong? :O
As you can tell from our discussion, this is pretty much one of the current issues at hand.
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Old 2010-12-04, 15:53   Link #19398
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As you can tell from our discussion, this is pretty much one of the current issues at hand.
You're right, didn't even look at some of the previous posts. Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here, I'm just so happy to finally play EP7 <3
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Old 2010-12-04, 16:15   Link #19399
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The general consensus is that they do seem to be the same person, though.
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Old 2010-12-04, 16:23   Link #19400
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"two side of the same coin", plus both Bern and Will totally tell Lion that s/he's Yasu in the other "fragments".

Even provided that Yasu actually isn't Lion (which I strongly doubt) Will quite clearly doesn't know and believes they are the same. But there's simply no way that Will is wrong.
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