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Old 2010-12-04, 17:37   Link #1081
wingzerosnuggles
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
...mature-minded people? Where the heck did all the fangirls and fanboys come from then? xD Sunrise was actually pretty smart to put both good plot and eye candy in Wing. Sure boosted sales. Thankfully the bishounen look was all the fanservice there is. The women in Wing actually know what a bra is, unlike recent incarnations 90's ftw.
Some weird hell portal, I assume. I like how the GW ladies dressed like, you know, how normal civilian and military women would dress. Granted, Noin's cowboy outfit was kinda stupid. Still, all the school uniforms were classy. Nowadays, school uniforms in anime are fetish fuel. Military uniforms too. *glares at Lunamaria* WTF is with the custom skirt? Seriously, what kind of military allows that?


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Seriously? 'Shinn, you just killed my sister and love interest. HOLD ME!' was popular????
If TV ratings and DVD sales are any indication, yes. -_-
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Old 2010-12-04, 17:43   Link #1082
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To be fair, ZAFT isn't a conventional military force and doesn't have the typical command structure of traditional militaries, such as the Earth Forces, and it was likely a perk for being part of their elite forces. Still ridiculous, though.
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Old 2010-12-04, 18:20   Link #1083
Kitsoru
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To be fair, as I was just discussing with wzs and another friend, they didn't really even seem to intend for Wing to have any bishietastic elements to it. All that shit (in terms of official art pandering to the base) started coming out LATER in the series' life, once they realized the fandom was starting to take things that way and that they could profit from it.

For example, I have one of the artbooks from the first half of the series, before the 2nd half began (aka that period of time when the clipshows aired). There is nothing fanservicey in this book at all. Take a look at its accompanying second-half book? You can definitely see the difference in how the boys are given the fanservice treatment.

Seriously, take a look at the Wingboy character designs. They are not handsome, they are not sparkly, they're goofy looking (imo, anyway). XD I dunno who or where in Japanese fandom started the whole them being bishie thing but if you look at the originals works themselves, there is nuthin' overtly attractive about those character designs. Of course, that's a matter of opinion- but can you honestly look at the source material, without letting personal fantasy brain-heero or brain-duo pop up instead (you know, how they're portrayed in fan works), and say 'OH YEAH I'D DO THAT'.

The entire thing with Wing was that Sunrise realized they had a new angle to attack on the merchandising front with a side of fandom they'd never really dealt with before, and they milked it for all it was worth. But they did not seem to intend that angle from the start.
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Old 2010-12-04, 18:23   Link #1084
Tobi_Uchiha
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[QUOTE=MichaelKnight;3375721]All I know is that Wing is an awesome anime that has a little bit of everything. Yes it's action, yes it's sci-fi, yes it's political, warfare, betrayal. It also has romance and drama. And heck if they didn't have Duo they wouldn't have a little bit of comedy as well. It's a classic anime. 90's was the best. No fanservice too. Wow. I mean, yeah it has its WTF moments but hey it was awesome and clearly only mature-minded people like it because of its political twists and blunt revelation of the ugly truth about stupid decisions. Which everyone makes in reality.QUOTE]

100% correct

when i was a kid my perspective on plots and deveopment in characters was as limited as watching the early 90's transformers.
GDW was like a slap and wakeup call, there was drama. powerstruggle and the naked truth

"Howmany people do you think you've hurt since the moment this all began?!! How many have grieved?! how many have suffered?!!
you've stepped on so people just to serve your self satisfying dream. everyone suffers!! everone has truth they want to ignore. You are not special you're just like everyone else"

Quote Haseo .hack//G.U.


GDW may have had a medium reception in japan but it's outside broadcast has definetly made it an instant classic, and frozen teardrop is proff enough that the fanbas is verymuch alive

on a side note about dorothy is that even though she was shown as a war hungry girl, it was eventually shown that she is actually afraid of war and heavy malice and will ANYTHING to stop war. Which was why she gave relena the gun to shoot milliardo and why she reacted so badly when milliardo refsed the duel between himself and triez for the fate all soldiers and earth and outerspace (believing that a simple duel would not cause a space fight that sadly happened).

it should be noted that dorathy and relena's reletionship was hardly hinted as friendship and might not have been anything other than an aqaintance or former student for a peace politican. and there has to be more reson or apparant evidence to why she tarted operation mythos, if her fears are to be taken to the lenght of war/masacre phobia.
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Old 2010-12-04, 18:39   Link #1085
MichaelKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
...mature-minded people? Where the heck did all the fangirls and fanboys come from then? xD Sunrise was actually pretty smart to put both good plot and eye candy in Wing. Sure boosted sales. Thankfully the bishounen look was all the fanservice there is. The women in Wing actually know what a bra is, unlike recent incarnations 90's ftw.
I'm with you on the comedy part, and on the fangirls and fanboys part. I just didn't go through full details like you did. What I was pointing out is the fact that its fans [those who were after its plot, not the boys or just the mecha designs] became fans because they actually understood and appreciated what the story was about. Because I know other anime fans who were like "WTF is with Gundam Wing. I don't understand what's going on. Couldn't last 20 episodes. F-ing boring." And I understand why they reacted that way. Obviously they're the kind of people who likes being spoonfed with everything there is to understand in a story [which isn't being mature] - but Wing isn't like that. It's fast-paced and vague in details. So what they want is obviously not going to happen. You know what I'm saying?

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Seriously? 'Shinn, you just killed my sister and love interest. HOLD ME!'
I don't know man. S/SD had the potential to be great, I mean with its plot and everything but the DRAMA disgusted me. It was too emphasised and stressed on. WTF. Too much screen time for crying, deep thoughts and flashbacks. I admire women... but a woman writing for a Gundam series could be not be such a good thing especially if she makes it all about what ONLY SHE prefers. *eyeroll*
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Old 2010-12-04, 18:49   Link #1086
MichaelKnight
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Oh, yeah. And about the fashion and the boys.

Wing is shounen. Plus it was done in the 90's. So it has no room for fashion.
And the boys, I don't think they were intended to be bishie as well. What, Yu Yu Hakusho has awesome character designs. And yet it didn't seem to me like they were showcasing how hot the boys were.
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Old 2010-12-04, 19:20   Link #1087
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by MichaelKnight View Post
Oh, yeah. And about the fashion and the boys.

Wing is shounen. Plus it was done in the 90's. So it has no room for fashion.
WOAH woah woah. Hold the phone there. I can't let you get away with that.

Wing was- and Gundam in general is- VERY genre-savvy with its use of fashion and historical influences in not just the world building but the character design of its series. To say there is 'no room for fashion' in Gundam is to say there's 'no room for technology' in Gundam. And what, do you think there was no fashion designing going on in the 90's? Of course there was! Just look at the resurgence of Prada, hell even Yohji Yamamoto up and coming in the 90's if you want some Japanese stuff.

Please direct your eyes here, then we'll talk: http://kitsoru.livejournal.com/61787.html
Considering I'm doing a thesis on the exchange of fashion and character design going on in Japan right now, this is sort of a Big Deal to me. :P
(Ignore the half after the uniform comparison images end, that's just Gundam in-joke rambling And I'm sure you all know that already.)

Last edited by Kitsoru; 2010-12-04 at 19:33.
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Old 2010-12-04, 20:04   Link #1088
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by wingzerosnuggles View Post
Some weird hell portal, I assume. I like how the GW ladies dressed like, you know, how normal civilian and military women would dress. Granted, Noin's cowboy outfit was kinda stupid. Still, all the school uniforms were classy. Nowadays, school uniforms in anime are fetish fuel. Military uniforms too. *glares at Lunamaria* WTF is with the custom skirt? Seriously, what kind of military allows that?
The kind that is full of hormonal, angsting teenagers or very young adults that surely will have absolutely no interest in sexual activities with their comrades whatsoever when their life is on the line pretty much 24/7. Yeah, that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by wingzerosnuggles View Post
If TV ratings and DVD sales are any indication, yes. -_-
*faceplams*

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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
The entire thing with Wing was that Sunrise realized they had a new angle to attack on the merchandising front with a side of fandom they'd never really dealt with before, and they milked it for all it was worth. But they did not seem to intend that angle from the start.
Agreed 100%. Would you mind showing a comparison pic of sorts? I've seen a lot of artwork but I never knew there was a difference in 'style' between the two artbooks. Now I'm interested to see which pics belong where. I assume that pool pic with Heero and Relena (and Duo in the background cheering) is from the second one..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobi_Uchiha View Post
on a side note about dorothy is that even though she was shown as a war hungry girl, it was eventually shown that she is actually afraid of war and heavy malice and will do ANYTHING to stop war. Which was why she gave relena the gun to shoot milliardo and why she reacted so badly when milliardo refused the duel between himself and triez for the fate all soldiers and earth and outerspace (believing that a simple duel would not cause a space fight that sadly happened).

it should be noted that dorathy and relena's reletionship was hardly hinted as friendship and might not have been anything other than an acquaintance or former student for a peace politician. and there has to be more reason or apparant evidence to why she started operation mythos, if her fears are to be taken to the length of war/massacre phobia.
So... you're suggesting Dorothy was the one who froze Relena in the first place?

I'll disagree with you on their relationship though. To me it seemed Dorothy was very fond of Relena (not that way). I interpreted her actions as wanting to test Relena or better say her ideals. You're right about Dorothy actually hating war. Her goal was to have a war so big that everyone would be fed up with it (aka loosing people close to them) and stop fighting. That would require a lot of deaths though. Relena's goal was exactly the opposite. Stop the bloodshed by talking sense into the people, all through total pacifism. No one would have to die that way. But that was practically impossible during that time. There were too many arms, too many people who wanted to fight.

To me it seemed like Dorothy was challenging Relena with her exclamations of starting a war and loving its beauty. She wanted to see what Relena would do without resorting to violence. She wanted to see if she could change a war-obsessed person through words alone. Like she wanted to believe in the power that the 'powerless' pacifism could have by overcoming obstacles such as the militaristic Romefeller Foundation. Dorothy was impressed when Relena managed to 'save' her country from the foundation by dissolving it, staying true to her ideals.

She was even more impressed by her decision pertaining her own brother, when killing him could have saved many lives. It was something like her final test. Relena refused to shoot Milliardo and Dorothy instantly changed her mind and locked her up in her room. To me it was like Dorothy realized, much like Milliardo, Heero and Treize, that a peace-oriented person with such strong will like her would be needed after the war. So she opted to protect her, by keeping her in a safe place.

I believe Dorothy shows her true colors already when she informs Noin that Relena is to be assassinated on her way back to Cinq, after the meeting with Dermail and folks. At that time she was a huge thorn in Romefeller's side, so why would Dorothy, granddaughter of Duke Dermail, the chief representative of Romefeller, want to save Relena Peacecraft? Maybe because she didn't want her last hope to die.

As for Relena, I think she always understood Dorothy's motives to some extend. After all, she never had trouble trusting her and didn't seem very fazed by her either. And in the movie version of EW it was Dorothy who more or less finished Relena's speech and spurred the people to protest against Mariemaia.
So I can picture friendship between these two, even if an odd one.

Wow, sorry for the rant. GW leaves a lot of room for interpretation, doesn't it?

Now, imagine Relena suddenly going trigger happy and about to start a war... Would Dorothy really kill her? By hiring the guy who has a record of not killing her? xD
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Old 2010-12-04, 20:10   Link #1089
MichaelKnight
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Originally Posted by Kitsoru View Post
WOAH woah woah. Hold the phone there. I can't let you get away with that.

Wing was- and Gundam in general is- VERY genre-savvy with its use of fashion and historical influences in not just the world building but the character design of its series. To say there is 'no room for fashion' in Gundam is to say there's 'no room for technology' in Gundam. And what, do you think there was no fashion designing going on in the 90's? Of course there was! Just look at the resurgence of Prada, hell even Yohji Yamamoto up and coming in the 90's if you want some Japanese stuff.

Please direct your eyes here, then we'll talk: http://kitsoru.livejournal.com/61787.html
Considering I'm doing a thesis on the exchange of fashion and character design going on in Japan right now, this is sort of a Big Deal to me. :P
(Ignore the half after the uniform comparison images end, that's just Gundam in-joke rambling And I'm sure you all know that already.)
OMG You're not hating on me, are you?

Man I'm sorry! Let me clarify what I meant. When I said no room for fashion. I meant the fashion we have right now, 00's. That's why I said "90's" up there. I didn't want to go through it much. That's why it's that short. And that's probably why it lost its point. Sorry!!!! T________T

Of course it has its themes: the Romefeller uniforms, Saint Gabriel Institute, Barton Foundation, high-waist jeans, etc.

I was just pointing out the boys' clothing because they're the face of Wing. Seriously. That green singlet and stretchable shorts? Come on, Heero.

But dude, I love Gundam Wing as much as I love myself and my bank account, I would never say anything that will degrade it.
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Last edited by MichaelKnight; 2010-12-04 at 20:24. Reason: Grammar issues. *facepalm*
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Old 2010-12-04, 21:14   Link #1090
IkuzeMinna
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Originally Posted by MichaelKnight View Post
I'm with you on the comedy part, and on the fangirls and fanboys part. I just didn't go through full details like you did. What I was pointing out is the fact that its fans [those who were after its plot, not the boys or just the mecha designs] became fans because they actually understood and appreciated what the story was about. Because I know other anime fans who were like "WTF is with Gundam Wing. I don't understand what's going on. Couldn't last 20 episodes. F-ing boring." And I understand why they reacted that way. Obviously they're the kind of people who likes being spoonfed with everything there is to understand in a story [which isn't being mature] - but Wing isn't like that. It's fast-paced and vague in details. So what they want is obviously not going to happen. You know what I'm saying?
Yup and I agree. I remember when we would read classics in school. I was always bored out of my mind. But then I'd get to work on them, start to analyze them and suddenly I would realize just how much effort and thought had been put into them. And I'd love them. GW is similar in that sense. There's the main story and then there are hints everywhere and it's up to you to put the pieces together to a whole. Kind of like an inkblot. You can make out the general shape but it's ultimately you who decides what it looks like.

That doesn't mean though that every good anime must be hard to follow (or that every anime that is hard to follow is good). I, for example, consider Sunrise's The Vision Of Escaflowne a masterpiece. The plot is simple but the execution is so stunning and marvelous that it leaves a great impact on the viewer. As I said, masterpiece

Quote:
I admire women... but a woman writing for a Gundam series could be not be such a good thing especially if she makes it all about what ONLY SHE prefers. *eyeroll*
Now, now. And the foolish man who went along with it is not to blame?
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Old 2010-12-04, 21:54   Link #1091
MichaelKnight
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
That doesn't mean though that every good anime must be hard to follow (or that every anime that is hard to follow is good). I, for example, consider Sunrise's The Vision Of Escaflowne a masterpiece. The plot is simple but the execution is so stunning and marvelous that it leaves a great impact on the viewer. As I said, masterpiece
Agreed. On all accounts. It just so happened that Gundam Wing is one of the rare ones that's challenging to follow, and yet it's awesome. And a certain Gundam series [not naming names] just so happened to be so transparent, everything is out in the open, and yet sucked balls. FOR ME.

And my, my, Escaflowne is one of my faves. AMEN to that. It was very professional. Every element put in was at its perfect amount. No overdoing or lacking whatsoever. But that is just another example to prove my previous point, despite its awesomeness it wasn't popular in Japan but to the West it was one of the bests. Like Wing.


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Now, now. And the foolish man who went along with it is not to blame?
Touche.
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Old 2010-12-04, 22:04   Link #1092
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna View Post
Agreed 100%. Would you mind showing a comparison pic of sorts? I've seen a lot of artwork but I never knew there was a difference in 'style' between the two artbooks. Now I'm interested to see which pics belong where. I assume that pool pic with Heero and Relena (and Duo in the background cheering) is from the second one..?
Well, there's several, SEVERAL Wing artbooks and, so I couldn't even begin to guess where that pool one came from (although I know I've seen the book it's from.. it was deffo one of the later ones), and unfortunately I only have one of the artbooks physically- I don't have it on me though, unfortunately.

Here's a listing of some of the Wing artbooks: http://aboutgundamwing.com/Merchandi...book_books.htm
And here's the one I have. It's the one called The Five G-Boys: http://aboutgundamwing.com/Merchandi.../refbookR1.jpg It's basically a recap of the characters and the first 25ish episodes.

I recall shopping around ebay recently looking to buy a new Wing artbook, and some sellers show previews of the insides of the artbooks. It was then that I was noticing that the 'later' artbooks, esp. the 2nd season artbooks and EW artbooks, had much heavier fanservice content than the earlier books.
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OMG You're not hating on me, are you?
No, chill out XD I'm just saying that the idea that fashion or character designs weren't taken into account is silly. Because they definitely are and what they wore in Wing was what WAS current then :P After all, super loose tank tops, high waists, and the Fresh Prince look were the thing back in the early 90's!

Though,
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelKnight
I admire women... but a woman writing for a Gundam series could be not be such a good thing especially if she makes it all about what ONLY SHE prefers. *eyeroll*
Let's not go there, please. It has nothing to do with gender; it has everything to do with being a good writer vs being a bad writer :P
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Old 2010-12-04, 22:20   Link #1093
MichaelKnight
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Let's not go there, please. It has nothing to do with gender; it has everything to do with being a good writer vs being a bad writer :P
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like that. I just meant that most women [NOT ALL] like drama and romance above all other genres so yeah.
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Old 2010-12-05, 02:48   Link #1094
gundamnedgirl03
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hookkaayyy so this is a bit of a late reaction but i just realized.

i thought dr j said heero used to be a "nice boy with kind eyes" and everything but this history lesson just shows us that heero has been the sullen, gloomy type all along. wtf. ugh.....
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Old 2010-12-05, 04:23   Link #1095
Kitsoru
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i thought dr j said heero used to be a "nice boy with kind eyes" and everything but this history lesson just shows us that heero has been the sullen, gloomy type all along. wtf. ugh.....
Huh? Dr. J has said that Heero has "good eyes" in Episode Zero (which I always took to meaning honest and good-hearted and all that shounen stuff) and when he's talking to Relena I don't recall him calling Heero 'nice' at all... Not those exact words anyway.
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Old 2010-12-05, 05:12   Link #1096
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Huh? Dr. J has said that Heero has "good eyes" in Episode Zero (which I always took to meaning honest and good-hearted and all that shounen stuff) and when he's talking to Relena I don't recall him calling Heero 'nice' at all... Not those exact words anyway.
i didn't mean that it's those exact words. i guess me using quotes made you think i meant that word for word. my bad. that's just how i took it when the good dr said that heero dear just keeps in all of his emotions when he's on missions but when he's not he's compassionate, you know more human. but wtf with all the "..." that i saw as his lines in the translations and the way he acted when he was a young boy, it wasn't any different than how he really is. or maybe that's just me. grr. nevah mind.
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Old 2010-12-05, 06:49   Link #1097
Kitsoru
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i didn't mean that it's those exact words. i guess me using quotes made you think i meant that word for word. my bad. that's just how i took it when the good dr said that heero dear just keeps in all of his emotions when he's on missions but when he's not he's compassionate, you know more human. but wtf with all the "..." that i saw as his lines in the translations and the way he acted when he was a young boy, it wasn't any different than how he really is. or maybe that's just me. grr. nevah mind.
Er... I'm still not sure exactly what you're saying XD Are you saying you thought it was implied that Heero used to be some kind of normal cheery child and became the sullen sack of joy we know later on? Because I've never gotten that impression from the series; I was always under the impression that was just how he was.

I mean, sure, I was still amused to see tiny 5 year old Heero being a sullen sack in these new chapters- but it wasn't exactly a surprise to me, either.

AUGH THESE PAGEGETS I SWEAR
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Old 2010-12-05, 07:07   Link #1098
wingzerosnuggles
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He was laughing it up in that EW flashback though. xD

Edit: And I think I just found the best possible opening theme for FT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtMF3oDNdSc

Last edited by wingzerosnuggles; 2010-12-05 at 11:27.
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Old 2010-12-05, 13:13   Link #1099
Tobi_Uchiha
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Dr.J said that heero is actually a kind hearted young man and commented that relena also had the same expression on his eyes. though it's a mystry what life heero had with his mom and stepdad, and the latest translations imply that he may have had a difficult time with people who treat him without much affection and show a darker side without much warning.
what i mean to say is that heero does have a good heart but the way the earth and colonies as they were during all those wars with his stressed family may have affected him. you've got to admit that when you are a kid it doesn't take much hurt you're feelings(I used to be very withdrawn and anti-scocial myself).

I've seen the new art work of odin and im surprised at how much change there is since the episode zero version.
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Old 2010-12-05, 17:27   Link #1100
Kitsoru
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Originally Posted by Tobi_Uchiha View Post
Dr.J said that heero is actually a kind hearted young man and commented that relena also had the same expression on his eyes. though it's a mystry what life heero had with his mom and stepdad, and the latest translations imply that he may have had a difficult time with people who treat him without much affection and show a darker side without much warning.

I've seen the new art work of odin and im surprised at how much change there is since the episode zero version.
I think it was somewhat that and also that he sort of realized that while his mother would tell him to his face that she loved him, etc, he was used as little more than a cover for her work- and she treated him as a child and not a person, when he was obviously much smarter than that. Same with Seis.
With Odin, at least he was up and front with Heero that this was a 'contract' and they were, essentially, coworkers; not parent and child (though of course, Heero never knew the truth that they actually were... which is even a bit sadder, haha). Odin didn't treat him like an idiot and Odin actually gave him life skills that he could use; as opposed to coddling him.

Yeah I'm...disregarding this apparent character design change, HAHA. You don't complete change someone's design after 15 years, uh sorry.
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