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Old 2010-12-05, 10:26   Link #19421
lambdabern
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If that is the solution(which seems most likely)how the heck did ryukishi think we could find the answers with ep 1-4?Battler sure is a genius!!!
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:16   Link #19422
Glass Heart
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I find this theory very interesting, but

Spoiler:


And I don't understand the meaning of the code behind the titles.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Glass Heart; 2010-12-05 at 11:27.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:19   Link #19423
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
Spoiler:
Died ?

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Old 2010-12-05, 11:24   Link #19424
Used Can
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Battler D 's in da house!

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Originally Posted by Glass Heart View Post
I find this theory very interesting, but

Spoiler:
That's the point, anyone could have done it. Kyrie just had the right reaction and timing.
I'm not going to deny this would be rather dissatisfying, since you'd expect a massive real murder planned by a genius mastermind.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:29   Link #19425
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Battler D 's in da house!


That's the point, anyone could have done it. Kyrie just had the right reaction and timing.
I'm not going to deny this would be rather dissatisfying, since you'd expect a massive real murder planned by a genius mastermind.
I think Kyrie did plan real murders to happen from the start. Let's put it this way:
  • Battler leaves Rokkenjima
  • Shannon tells everyone about her plan to test Battler
  • Kyrie sees an opportunity and starts plotting to kill everybody
  • Shannon prepares her elaborate "murder mystery" (bank accounts, whatever)
  • Six years later, Battler returns
  • Fake murders happen
  • Kyrie turns it into a real murder mystery story

In other words, Kyrie is just waiting for Battler to return so she can kill everybody using Shannon's scheme.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:42   Link #19426
ijriims
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I think Kyrie did plan real murders to happen from the start. Let's put it this way:
  • Battler leaves Rokkenjima
  • Shannon tells everyone about her plan to test Battler
  • Kyrie sees an opportunity and starts plotting to kill everybody
  • Shannon prepares her elaborate "murder mystery" (bank accounts, whatever)
  • Six years later, Battler returns
  • Fake murders happen
  • Kyrie turns it into a real murder mystery story

In other words, Kyrie is just waiting for Battler to return so she can kill everybody using Shannon's scheme.
I believe Shannon only told the servants about the plan, and announce to the adults that they can get the cash money by following the fake-death plot at 4th Oct midnight.

Kyrie knows beforehand though because Shannon asked her to persuade Rudolf to ask for Battler's return, in exchange, they could get more money.

That's how part of my hypothesis differs from yours.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:44   Link #19427
Used Can
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The problem is, if Kyrie did plan this whole thing, was it even foreshadowed in the story. Sure, there's been theories about Kyrie before, but I don't think there's enough evidence in the games to claim Kyrie has planned any of this.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:46   Link #19428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I believe Shannon only told the servants about the plan, and announce to the adults that they can get the cash money by following the fake-death plot at 4th Oct midnight.

Kyrie knows beforehand though because Shannon asked her to persuade Rudolf to ask for Battler's return, in exchange, they could get more money.

That's how part of my hypothesis differs from yours.
This works as well, because the end result is the same (everybody being involved) but I like what you have about Kyrie knowing ahead of time. It would be harder to coordinate a lie if everybody has known for a long time.

For this to work, then Shannon would have had to solve the Epitaph ahead of time to get all of the money. Then she would have sent an enormous amount of money to those bank accounts (which is possible, since EP2 has shown us that Shannon is allowed to leave Rokkenjima).

I also think that Shannon sent out the message bottles to mimic "And Then There Were None", further intensifying the mystery atmosphere on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:47   Link #19429
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It simply that chrono. Lion believes that Yasu is a "himself/herself" of another reality, and Will lets her/him believe it. No I can go as far as to say that Will definitely believes that Yasu and Lion are the same person. That's because he knows that Lion seeing the past game records would suffer. Why would s/he suffer if all was done by a complete stranger?

You are really wasting your time, this matter is absolutely clear, it shouldn't even be argued.
I doubt you'd have liked to hear this after your volcano theories, and there's no less evidence for what I'm saying.

Let's say that Clair doesn't know that she and Yasu are different people. If so, Will could solve the mystery Clair presents and still say that they're the same person. In fact, by the gold truth rule, they would be the same person within the stories. So whether Will guesses that they are different people or not, he would still be right to say that Lion and Yasu are the same person within the stories. Or, in other words, within the cat box, and both Clair and Lion are very clearly inside the cat box.

Also, what if Will solved the mystery correctly but got reality wrong? We can trust Ryuukishi to make Will solve the mystery right, but remember that he lost his fight against Bern at the end, and it looks very much as though he didn't know Lion would died at the family conference before Bern said it (and remember, Clair definitely didn't know this, so even she cannot possibly know the full story). So, even if you want to say that Will absolutely solved the mystery correctly, you cannot say that he knew the full truth of Rokkenjima Prime.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:49   Link #19430
Jan-Poo
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I don't think Shannon/Yasu ever actively tried to get Battler back.

Quote:
I doubt you'd have liked to hear this after your volcano theories, and there's no less evidence for what I'm saying.
No less evidence? The point that I most strongly defended was the fact that Ange knew that there was no longer any Mansion to visit, it was also the point that was most harshly criticized even though it was blatantly obvious.

I don't think you can compare the two things. Criticisms about the volcano theory itself never actually bothered me, in fact I speculated about various disasters (including landslides and even remnants war bombs) and I even enforced discussions to understand what actually happened.
What I always refused to accept was any suggestion that no incident ever happened or that it was some low scale incident like a boiler explosion.

I'm not going to accept a claim that it was a far fetched idea and I was only lucky to understand it. There were overwhelming evidences about that.

I still believe the real incident was caused by a volcano eruption, and more precisely by a phreatomagmatic eruption. However I'd never blame you for criticizing it. I only do that for things that someone who's truly trying to understand this story should see.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:49   Link #19431
ijriims
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Just some circumstantial evidence like letters-in-the-bottle predicting the absence of Ange, EP4's phone call to Battler, Kyrie's unusual punishment for running away from Sumadera family.

But really, same question, in the question arc, are there enough evidence in the game to claim Shannon or George has planned these all?

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think Shannon/Yasu ever actively tried to get Battler back.
But Rudolf really tried hard to get Battler back, right?

Not so in Lion's world.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:57   Link #19432
Used Can
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
But really, same question, in the question arc, are there enough evidence in the game to claim Shannon or George has planned these all?
For Shannon there's Shkanon. It works rather well. For George, he could be an accomplice, and maybe an exploiter, but not a mastermind.

Also, remember that we were told that something was supposed to take place on Rokkenjima during 1986, and that Battler's presence made it all go wrong. So, I think we can say showed he up unexpectedly, meaning that Yasu didn't plan on having him back.
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Old 2010-12-05, 11:58   Link #19433
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Just some circumstantial evidence like letters-in-the-bottle predicting the absence of Ange, EP4's phone call to Battler, Kyrie's unusual punishment for running away from Sumadera family.

But really, same question, in the question arc, are there enough evidence in the game to claim Shannon or George has planned these all?
I don't know if there is in the Question arcs, but the following hints in the 50% EP7 patch made everything click for me:
  • Shannon is 19 years old
  • She is Kinzo's child
  • She is a huge mystery fan

Everything else (at least from my perspective) can fit into a plan that Shannon plots a real-life "And Then There Were None" which is hijacked, without anyone knowing, by one of the adults. I just picked Kyrie because she's crazy.

Further support:
  • Kyrie's comment about makeup in EP1, also Rudolf's "I will probably die tonight" (this is a blunder on Rudolf's part, he was not supposed to mention anything about Shannon's plot
  • EP6 proves that it is possible to coordinate fake murders with everybody except the detective knowing
  • Shannon's breaking the mirror in EP2, also her conversations with Beatrice
  • The message bottles that match "And Then There Were None"
  • Shannon's and Yasu's personalities match up
  • Battler and Shannon both like mystery
  • Just a random thought: Perhaps the reason that none of the adults try to solve the Epitaph (with the exception of Rosa and Eva in EP3) is because they already know Shannon has all of the gold? Not an important thing, just a thought

I mean, obviously you cannot figure out about Yasu before EP4. The baby from 19 years ago is not even MENTIONED until EP5.
I think Ryukishi expected some people to catch on to the general idea that all the planned murders were faked and then somebody actually killed the "victims". Also that Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice (from EP2).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can
Also, remember that we were told that something was supposed to take place on Rokkenjima during 1986, and that Battler's presence made it all go wrong. So, I think we can say showed he up unexpectedly, meaning that Yasu didn't plan on having him back.
I don't remember this. Perhaps the event in 1986 was supposed to be the bomb? Speaking of which, was it ever decided what the bomb was, and who planned it?
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:07   Link #19434
Used Can
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I don't remember this. Perhaps the event in 1986 was supposed to be the bomb? Speaking of which, was it ever decided what the bomb was, and who planned it?
During EP7, by the end of Clair's play, if I remember correctly.
I really doubt Yasu planned to use the bomb, since that's basically what sealed the deal, and it was said that, had Battler not shown up, then something would have happened, but nothing big as in this massive tragedy.
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:09   Link #19435
chronotrig
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My bad, I think I mixed the scene with Beatrice 2 right before with Yasu's; however, two big points still stand:

1. She's meeting Genji and Nanjo. I don't think she had spoken this casually with them before solving the Epitaph. Also, unless my impression is wrong, this seemed to have taken place in Kinzo's study.
2. Right after the scene in which Yasu met Kinzo, she never displayed any sort of furniture complex. What's more, she was still saying she'd wait for Battler.
And yet, you must admit that scenes have been hidden from us. After all, Kanon was said to have served Kinzo directly, from the time of his creation. We even hear that the two of them went shooting together a lot in EP6. And yet, EP7 gives us no hint of a casual meeting between the two of them until Kinzo's death. So, from the moment Kanon is created, it is very clear that many scenes are being hidden from us. In which case, we can't say with certainty whether or not the red guts scene was one of them.

For your second point, Beatrice is still waiting for Battler, but we know that she was waiting for Battler until the final moment, or Battler's return wouldn't have counted as a motive for the crimes. However, at the exact same time Kanon is created, "Shannon" gives up on loving Battler, and passes that love on to the completely fictional character Beatrice. In other words, it looks like Yasu has decided to put her love for Battler on the back-burner, and to try and ignore it unless Battler does return.

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I don't understand your point. If I'm understanding it correctly, your idea is that Genji and Nanjo probably put a penis in order to convince Yasu's she's a boy, right? So, if she thinks she's a boy, why would she slip up? That doesn't make any sense. Also, putting a fake penis on a girl won't make her brain suddenly start releasing androgens in the same way that a real boy would. She'll still be getting oestrogens and progestogens in the same fashion a girl does, once she hits puberty. Genji and Nanjo have no way to tell the effects those will have on her. For all the know, she could end up with a very feminine figure, especially with things like big boobs, which would be rather hard to hide.
No, this is more or less the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Genji and Nanjo couldn't just stick a fake penis on her. I'm not even sure how such a thing would be physically possible if the goal is to trick the person. They would have to convince her that they'd been forced to give her a sex change in the fall and rip her old one off, so to speak. They could then say that the lack was responsible for whatever feminine features Yasu has, but make the argument that she really is supposed to be a boy, and must appear as such for Kinzo's sake and to be taken seriously as the family head.

You couldn't tell a secret like this to a young girl and expect her to understand, much less keep it a secret to everyone. They couldn't tell her that she was Lion until she was old enough to keep secrets and understand what it would mean to be born a boy.


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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
My bad again, I read it on a different way. Anyway, why would Kinzo expect a boy's voice to resemble his (the boy's) mother's, even less his face? Also, if Genji wanted Kinzo to think of her as a boy, why dress her as Beatrice? Yasu basically lived her whole life as a girl, even by the time she met Kinzo, she was dressed as a woman. I don't see how posing as a man would factor in any of these.

Moreover, why are you assuming Genji wanted Yasu to be the next head? All Kinzo wanted was his child - Beatrice's child. As long as he could meet his child, that was redemption for him. In addition, this is Beatrice's child we're speaking of. Do you think he'd really care about her sex? This will come down purely to opinion, I know. Personally, I think he wouldn't.
For the first half, I think it's because Kinzo wanted to apologize to Beatrice herself, not just her child. It's clear that he recognizes them as two completely separate people, if you look closely at the moment he starts talking to "Lion" directly. Of course, Kinzo knows that Shannon was Yasu, and has been dressing up as a girl for a long time, but he also knows that Kanon is Shannon. So, Yasu gets to act the part of the woman Kinzo wanted to apologize to, and also to play the part of the son Kinzo wants to leave everything to, in the hopes that 'giving up everything Beatrice gave me' might be able to atone for his terrible sins.

And that leads us to your second point. If Genji did present Lion to Kinzo, Kinzo would almost certainly want to make Lion the next head. After all, he's apparently been ranting about giving everything back to Beatrice for some time. Personally, I don't think it likely that Genji would work so hard to let Kinzo die in peace, and then ignore Kinzo's last request, which is probably the only request he even put in his will.

I think it likely that, from Genji's perspective, it doesn't matter so much that Yasu isn't Lion. Unless he or Nanjo spills the beans, it's a cat box truth. As long as Yasu thinks she's Beatrice's son, Beatrice's memory will continue to rule the Ushiromiya family just as it would have if Yasu was Lion.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2010-12-05 at 12:36.
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:11   Link #19436
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post

But Rudolf really tried hard to get Battler back, right?

Not so in Lion's world.
Yeah and I think there's definitely something going on there, but I don't think Yasu wanted that.
It's probably something related to the inheritance, which in Lion's world was already decided.
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:12   Link #19437
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
During EP7, by the end of Clair's play, if I remember correctly.
I really doubt Yasu planned to use the bomb, since that's basically what sealed the deal, and it was said that, had Battler not shown up, then something would have happened, but nothing big as in this massive tragedy.
Ah, that's why, I only have the first 50% read.

From what I can guess, Yasu probably just gave up and was about to announce that he/she had found the gold and would become the successor to the head.

For her plot with Battler, she was saving the announcement to get the adults to go along with her plan. However, since she thought he would never come back, she probably would just have said "I'm the new head of the Ushiromiya family".
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:18   Link #19438
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
During EP7, by the end of Clair's play, if I remember correctly.
I really doubt Yasu planned to use the bomb, since that's basically what sealed the deal, and it was said that, had Battler not shown up, then something would have happened, but nothing big as in this massive tragedy.
I only remember something like "If Battler returned one year earlier or one year later, the incident would not happen"

I could intrepret it as if Battler return one year earlier, without Rudolf bending the knee to ask for his return, then Shannon did not need to ask for Kyrie's help. So Kyrie could not plan ahead.

If one year later, the financial distress of adults should have resolved, or because Krauss refused to lend money to his siblings, the other families lost significantly. The whole family was so broken that family meeting is no longer possible. So no killing. Or George got Shannon away after that year, so no killing either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah and I think there's definitely something going on there, but I don't think Yasu wanted that.
It's probably something related to the inheritance, which in Lion's world was already decided.
How did the inheritance matter affect Rudolf's choice to bend his knee? I don't get it.

Perhaps I should ask more directly why you don't think Yasu want Battler to return on 1986 family meeting.
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:23   Link #19439
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
I only remember something like "If Battler returned one year earlier or one year later, the incident would not happen"

I could intrepret it as if Battler return one year earlier, without Rudolf bending the knee to ask for his return, then Shannon did not need to ask for Kyrie's help. So Kyrie could not plan ahead.

If one year later, the financial distress of adults should have resolved, or because Krauss refused to lend money to his siblings, the other families lost significantly. The whole family was so broken that family meeting is no longer possible. So no killing.
This works as well.

Actually, now that I think about it, the bank accounts have a special significance:
Shannon set up the bank accounts, in advance, as future payment for the adults helping her with her plan. When Battler returns, she tells them "I have the money in the bank accounts. If you help me out, then they're yours."
On Rokkenjima, the letters with the keys were waiting to be sent. The letters remained intact after the explosion and were mailed by one of the people that discovered the crime.
However, since everybody dies from the bomb, the letters with the keys are forwarded on to the victims' families.



EDIT:
I personally think that Kyrie was tipped off ahead of time. In order for this scheme to work, then nobody would be able to know about the plan until the night of. However, Kyrie would need SOME idea of Shannon's plan for her to actually kill people.
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Old 2010-12-05, 12:47   Link #19440
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And couldn't Shannon really be the murderer ?

After all, it would be easy to her to commit the murders (thanks to her multiple identities) and, as Yasu, could be himself interested by the inheritance (as the son of Kinzo and the woman he truly loves).

Yasu could have a STRONG hate for both Natsuhi and Rosa. Rosa has killed his mother and Natsuhi has deprived him from all his rights to the inheritance by trying to kill him.

Shannon could also hate Eva for the way she treats her and keeps her away from George (maybe she doesn't really like George but that she sees him as a way to become a real Ushiromiya, to "be someone").

And, most of all, she could hate Kyrie and Rudolph because of their quick marriage which was the reason why Battler was absent one year after their promise.


Because I don't really imagine the parents going along with a "plan" to test Battler. Most of them despise Shannon and Kanon as furnitures.

But yes, I agree that one of the adults could have discovered what she was doing (without Shannon actually knowing of it) and could have decided to go along with it, planning to use it as a way to gain the inheritance.
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