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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 31 34.44%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 27.78%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 15.56%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 12.22%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 5.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.11%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.11%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.22%
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-12-07, 07:01   Link #121
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
lack of development totally strange.
Character development and relationship development are not one and the same. Nobody here is saying that relationships aren't developing, but rather that there isn't much character development for most of the main characters, particularly our two leads.

You can have very static characters, and still loads of relationship development.

Conversely, you can have character development but relationship dynamics don't change.

And I'm not just saying this to pull a random rebuttal out of nowhere. In a post I made on the Episode 7 Discussion Thread back in mid-November, I made the same observation as it pertains to this anime.

Now, with this distinction between character development and relationship development in mind, let's go over your list and see which ones are character development and which ones are relationship development.


Quote:

1) Ayase is now actively trying to accept at least a part of Kirino's otaku world
Character Development.


Quote:

2) Ayase is willing to ask Kyousuke (who she totally despised before) for help to accomplish that
Character Development. Could also hint at relationship development.


Quote:

3) Kyousuke was obviously expecting/hoping for a confession from Ayase in the beginning
Relationship Development (if it actually leads somewhere).


Quote:

4) We know now that Ayase's "Gravure" modeling does not include risqué shots due to her extremely violent reaction *lol*
Character Development.


Quote:

5) Kirino's mad reaction to Kyousuke's "girlfriend" line indicates some serious brocon
Relationship Development. It's certainly not character development because this is nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever for Kirino. In fact, this barely counts even as relationship development at this point. It pretty much just reinforces previous relationship development of the exact same sort - it's not like it's moving the siblings relationship anywhere new. As relationship development goes, it's not a very satisfying type for this late stage of an one cour anime.


Quote:

6) Ayase is both capable of pulling off some amazing logistics (preparation of excellent costume, big car with driver to change etc) on very short notice
Character Development.


Quote:

7) Ayase is pretty devious, to trick Kanakana like that, and to just forget her at the end
Character Development.


Quote:

8) Introduction of Kanakana's character
That's not really character development in and of itself. I mean, character development by its very nature goes beyond initial impression of a new character.


Quote:

9) LOTS of smart observations (age of fanbase, reactions of idols during performances etc)
Character Development (for Ayase, in case anybody forgot who made the observations in question).


Quote:

10) Weakness and Otakudom of Kuroneko demonstrated, but her idea was spot-on
I don't really see how this is development of either sort. I mean, this type of weakness and otakudom is nothing out of the ordinary for Kuroneko, nor is her having good ideas.


Quote:

11) Kirino is getting increasingly jealous about Kyousuke's dealings with Kuroneko and Saori
Relationship Development.


So, in conclusion, Ayase enjoyed a lot of good character development this episode, which is great. The rest of the cast (and in particular our two leads) is as static as ever, though. There was some very slight hints of relationship development in this episode, but even these are thoroughly standard fare for a harem anime, and honestly I don't know if they're even worth a mention. I mean, they're the absolute bare minimum for what I'd expect out of a harem anime.


Quote:

Seriously, what do you guys WANT?
Speaking for myself, character development for the two leads, and also maybe a bit more for Saori and Kuroneko (although Episode 9 was a good start here, I'll admit).

Tsunderes (good ones, anyway) usually enjoy decent character development. This means that they gradually grow less abrasive, friendlier to the other characters around them (particularly when it comes to the male lead), and more willing to let their true feelings come out (i.e. they don't hide them behind a tsuntsun shield constantly).


Quote:

This episode had everything and more.
I can definitely see what you listed.

That being said... this is Episode 10 of an one cour anime. I wouldn't fault someone for expecting character development to be a bit more out there and obvious at this point. It's great and fine to subtly hint at, or lightly foreshadow, character development when you're in the early or middle stages of a story. However, we're now pulling away into the final stages of this anime (its first season, at the very least). There arguably should now be some sort of sense that those earlier hints of character development (which genuinely are sprinkled all over the first few episodes of this anime, I'll gladly admit) are leading into more clear-cut character development.

For example, many of us speculated several episodes ago that Kyousuke might become an otaku himself, and/or perhaps that his own personal liking for Kirino's otaku interests is a key reason for why he's helping her (and her friends) out so much. And there were hints of just that (such as Kyousuke getting very excited over completing a route in an eroge several episodes ago).

Well, why not build further on that, at this point in the narrative, by showing Kyousuke reading a manga for his own personal interest, or him buying an anime DVD for an anime that looks appealing to him? I mean, at least it would be something to show that his character isn't static.

Instead he's just chugging along, constantly coming to the aid of his sister and her friends just like he's been doing for the better part of this anime. We have no better idea now of why he does it than we did back in Episode 3 or 4. Yes, he may very well have a crush on one or more of Kirino's friends, but that can't completely explain it. Or even if it can, if this is the reason why, then it probably should be hinted at more at this point.


One final note - In my view, lots of relationship development with little or no character development = soap opera.

After the first five episodes of this anime, I was really hoping for more than an anime soap opera.
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Old 2010-12-07, 07:52   Link #122
Mentar
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And with that you're falling into the primary trap of anime watching: You have your own ideas what you want to see and get, and you're not getting it, so it's the fault of the anime. That's simply not how it works.

There's no law that says that main characters have to undergo massive developments. That's ONE way to do it, but not the only way. Kyousuke HAS undergone gradual developments, from being a total non-otaku to someone who is at least competent in this area. And while he has had a non-relationship with Kirino in the beginning, he's now talking freely and openly with her, to the degree that she is complaining how he's starting to develop his own bonds with what were initially Kirino's newfound friends. But some aspects of him are indeed static, because they DEFINE him. He's someone who is willing to suffer abuse and hardship to help those people he WANTS to help. And - unfortunately for him - he's not receiving the appreciation for that he deserves.

Sure - you could write the story differently, make him agonize over whether or not to form something of a romantic relationship with Kirino, etc etc. But that's not how the show works till now. They're going for a much more sober approach so far. And if they outsource the "true ending" to DVDs/Blurays, then they'll probably have a reason for that. I could imagine that it might not be suitable for public TV.

Finally this "Soap Opera" dissing. Pleeeeeease. This show has done a great job thematizing LOTS of issues in a very clear-sighted way. Issues of public perception of Otakus in family, friends and school/work circles. Creation of materials (novels, animes) and issues surrounding that. And and and. Denigrating all that with "Soap Opera" is among the biggest failures to properly classify an anime I've read in the last year. Sorry.
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Old 2010-12-07, 08:19   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And with that you're falling into the primary trap of anime watching: You have your own ideas what you want to see and get, and you're not getting it, so it's the fault of the anime.
That's not what I'm saying at all. The anime can choose to develop its characters in whichever direction it wishes. I'm just saying that its main characters should have some significant character development of some sort, at least. I don't particularly want Kyousuke to become an otaku - I'd be fine with it, but it's not something that I'm actively hoping for - I just raised that as an example of what the anime could do to develop his character.

The thing is, the two leads for this anime are not having their characters developed to any significant extent in any way, shape, or form. For example, while I was not a fan of Episode 8, it at least offered ways for Kirino to develop as a character that goes beyond where she was several episodes ago. Why not show how she reacts to the anime adaptation of her work? Perhaps we could see her talk with Kuroneko over how good or bad the adaptation was, and that could be a catalyst for Kirino and Kuroneko getting along a bit better. Perhaps we could see her being disappointed with how the anime turned out, but then later come to a surprisingly calm acceptance of that, hence showing a different side of her personality and more emotional range (and you wouldn't even have to make her dere to do it, for those who don't want her to become dere at all).

But no, all we ever see of Kirino is SuperTsun or Geekgasm, 24/7. And maybe once in a blue moon she'll try to patch up an existing friendship. That's not exactly a well-rounded character, is it?


Quote:

There's no law that says that main characters have to undergo massive developments.
I'm not asking for massive developments. I'm asking for significant ones.

I think that most of us here would agree that this is a character-driven show. A character-driven show (that isn't a pure comedy) pretty much requires character development.

If this was a plot-driven show, I could see static leads working well. But not when the characters make the show much moreso than any overarching plot does.


Quote:
That's ONE way to do it, but not the only way. Kyousuke HAS undergone gradual developments, from being a total non-otaku to someone who is at least competent in this area.
He became competent in that area several episodes ago. That's nothing even remotely new.


Quote:
And while he has had a non-relationship with Kirino in the beginning, he's now talking freely and openly with her, to the degree that she is complaining how he's starting to develop his own bonds with what were initially Kirino's newfound friends.
He was talking freely and openly with her in the very first episode, IIRC.


Quote:
But some aspects of him are indeed static, because they DEFINE him. He's someone who is willing to suffer abuse and hardship to help those people he WANTS to help. And - unfortunately for him - he's not receiving the appreciation for that he deserves.
So, he's simply a self-sacrificing Saint with no ulterior motives whatsoever, basically?

The thought had crossed my mind. Not a terribly easy character to relate to, though...


Quote:

Finally this "Soap Opera" dissing. Pleeeeeease. This show has done a great job thematizing LOTS of issues in a very clear-sighted way. Issues of public perception of Otakus in family, friends and school/work circles.
Sure, in the first five episodes. And that's what I was hoping to get more of. Not an anime soap opera which this is starting to feel like to me.


Quote:
Creation of materials (novels, animes) and issues surrounding that.
Which weren't dealt with even remotely realistically, so this I don't give much credit for.

Just ask any Bakuman fan about this, and you'll see what I mean.


Quote:
And and and. Denigrating all that with "Soap Opera" is among the biggest failures to properly classify an anime I've read in the last year. Sorry.
Good thing, then, that I was not classifying the entire anime as a "Soap Opera". That's not what I meant by what I wrote, Mentar.

My point, again, is that it's starting to feel like an anime soap opera. If I felt that it was an anime soap opera from the very beginning, I wouldn't have had reason to hope for more than that, would I?
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Old 2010-12-07, 09:02   Link #124
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God I love this show. XD

It's now beyond doubt, Kirino's abusive behaviour is a cover (to convince others and herself) for her (improper) feelings towards Kyousuke.

LMAO, Ayase is such a terrible person.
Conning her friend into cosplaying to get a prize, then promptly forget to bring her her change of clothes after the event - Kyousuke appears to have forgotten about it too. :P

Ayase and Kyousuke really do make a cute couple. ^_^
They are both standbyers of the craziness of otaku culture.
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Old 2010-12-07, 10:49   Link #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And with that you're falling into the primary trap of anime watching: You have your own ideas what you want to see and get, and you're not getting it, so it's the fault of the anime. That's simply not how it works.

There's no law that says that main characters have to undergo massive developments. That's ONE way to do it, but not the only way. Kyousuke HAS undergone gradual developments, from being a total non-otaku to someone who is at least competent in this area. And while he has had a non-relationship with Kirino in the beginning, he's now talking freely and openly with her, to the degree that she is complaining how he's starting to develop his own bonds with what were initially Kirino's newfound friends. But some aspects of him are indeed static, because they DEFINE him. He's someone who is willing to suffer abuse and hardship to help those people he WANTS to help. And - unfortunately for him - he's not receiving the appreciation for that he deserves.

Sure - you could write the story differently, make him agonize over whether or not to form something of a romantic relationship with Kirino, etc etc. But that's not how the show works till now. They're going for a much more sober approach so far. And if they outsource the "true ending" to DVDs/Blurays, then they'll probably have a reason for that. I could imagine that it might not be suitable for public TV.

Finally this "Soap Opera" dissing. Pleeeeeease. This show has done a great job thematizing LOTS of issues in a very clear-sighted way. Issues of public perception of Otakus in family, friends and school/work circles. Creation of materials (novels, animes) and issues surrounding that. And and and. Denigrating all that with "Soap Opera" is among the biggest failures to properly classify an anime I've read in the last year. Sorry.
The problem is that the anime is an adaptation of the novels. The Kousaka siblings got character development in the novels, and the anime is sorely lacking that. While I do appreciate Ayase getting more depth than she had in the novels, robbing the main characters' growth is fairly ridiculous.
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Old 2010-12-07, 12:21   Link #126
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Here I find myself kind of agreeing with multiple positions... I think there's been a lot of good character and story development, but there could easily have been much more (based on what I've learned about the source material in the last 24 hours) despite the tight time budget. We've got poorly paid writing staff working under absurd deadlines trying to adapt excellent source material for a number of anime. Sometimes you get lucky, often you don't.

I still consider this one of the better series in the last couple of years because of the issues it tries to address (as I do the Zakuro series and its disguised examination of racial tensions and prejudice) but also realize any shortcomings in the adaptation.
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Old 2010-12-07, 12:24   Link #127
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Personally, the series stagnated after episode three.

I'm not denying the fact that there has been overall development in the past episodes, but it doesn't really feel like it's going anywhere, at least when it concerns Kirino/anything directly connected to Kirino outside of Kuroneko and Saori (the latter appears to have a dedicated episode coming up so that will be interesting).

Also, the news concerning the attempts at two different endings when the actual serialization isn't over to begin with is...
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Old 2010-12-07, 13:51   Link #128
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In line with several of the preceding comments, I agree that this is a decent anime, but fails to live up to its potential. As I see it, most of the episodes have been filler episodes, in the sense that there seems to be no clear plotline that weaves them together. They are simply snapshots from a number of novels that are really hard to condense because much of the "action" is actually in the head of the narrator.
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Old 2010-12-07, 15:47   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Here I find myself kind of agreeing with multiple positions... I think there's been a lot of good character and story development, but there could easily have been much more (based on what I've learned about the source material in the last 24 hours) despite the tight time budget. We've got poorly paid writing staff working under absurd deadlines trying to adapt excellent source material for a number of anime. Sometimes you get lucky, often you don't.

I still consider this one of the better series in the last couple of years because of the issues it tries to address (as I do the Zakuro series and its disguised examination of racial tensions and prejudice) but also realize any shortcomings in the adaptation.
Zakuro is one of the anime that got lucky, since it has Okada Mari as a screenwriter. I actually felt she improved on the first manga chapter (the only one I've read).

Ore no Imouto... I'm willing to forgive the breakneck pacing, as while it would have been nice for things like Ayase's family background to be included, the story is still fantastic without them. The changes made to episode eight, however, really did bother me. The series has had two fantastic arcs so far (episode 1-3 and 4-5), but I feel it needs one more to make the leap from "show I love" to "genuinely great anime" - that should have been episodes 7-8, but it wasn't. Episodes 9 and 10 were both solid episodes - hell, nine was absolutely hilarious - but they don't quite fit the bill either.
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Old 2010-12-07, 16:43   Link #130
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Zakuro is one of the anime that got lucky, since it has Okada Mari as a screenwriter. I actually felt she improved on the first manga chapter (the only one I've read).

Ore no Imouto... I'm willing to forgive the breakneck pacing, as while it would have been nice for things like Ayase's family background to be included, the story is still fantastic without them. The changes made to episode eight, however, really did bother me. The series has had two fantastic arcs so far (episode 1-3 and 4-5), but I feel it needs one more to make the leap from "show I love" to "genuinely great anime" - that should have been episodes 7-8, but it wasn't. Episodes 9 and 10 were both solid episodes - hell, nine was absolutely hilarious - but they don't quite fit the bill either.
Yeah that rather fits in with my critique of "lets start a dozen story threads and then leave them all hanging". There are a half dozen interesting topics started... but their status is in stasis.
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Old 2010-12-07, 17:32   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Ore no Imouto... I'm willing to forgive the breakneck pacing, as while it would have been nice for things like Ayase's family background to be included, the story is still fantastic without them. The changes made to episode eight, however, really did bother me. The series has had two fantastic arcs so far (episode 1-3 and 4-5), but I feel it needs one more to make the leap from "show I love" to "genuinely great anime" - that should have been episodes 7-8, but it wasn't. Episodes 9 and 10 were both solid episodes - hell, nine was absolutely hilarious - but they don't quite fit the bill either.
Ever since the major issue against Ayase in episodes 4-5, the story did seem to be going absolutely nowhere in development at all. Sure Kirino has been blushing from time to time when Kyousuke says something strange, but even though Kuroneko gave us a hint that it would be nice to have a brother, there is still no development to that at all.. We merely just got to see her little sister strolling around with her, but nothing concerning her family... (Wait... Dont tell me the other girl with the little sister when they were peaking into Kuroneko's room was actually her mother?) But yeah... This show needs a boosting arc to finally make the fans feel complete and satisfied about it ending.
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Old 2010-12-07, 17:49   Link #132
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I have a irking feeling that the series is gonna end with a massive cliffhanger.
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Old 2010-12-07, 17:58   Link #133
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I have a irking feeling that the series is gonna end with a massive cliffhanger.
That'd be fine if they greenlight a second season
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Old 2010-12-07, 18:00   Link #134
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That'd be fine if they greenlight a second season
Vexx has a good mind on this

If they left us with a cliffhanger, and no chance of a second season... Its gonna make the fans very depressed I just hope they don't rush something with the episodes they have left.
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Old 2010-12-07, 19:00   Link #135
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So for the last news , there'll be 2 endings huh? One for Kirino's route and the other for Manami/Kuroneko (Ayase/Saori) ? ^^
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Old 2010-12-07, 19:06   Link #136
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So for the last news , there'll be 2 endings huh? One for Kirino's route and the other for Manami/Kuroneko (Ayase/Saori) ? ^^
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the content of the endings has been announced yet. But given that they're "Good" and "True" Endings, I think they'll both be routes for the same heroine (Kirino). Time will tell, of course.
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Old 2010-12-07, 19:55   Link #137
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Triple_R covered most of what I wanted to say about the development (or lack thereof) in the characters of oreimo. I would, however, like to elaborate on the distinction I draw between character development and plot development and how it works with respect to ep10 of oreimo.

I feel like episode 10 had a lot of what I would call plot development. Things I would categorize as plot development include revelations about a character's past, introduction of new characters etc. Examples of this in ep10 would include the introduction/expansion of kanakana's character, explanation of how ayase feels about gravure modeling vs cosplay etc. These are events/ideas that change how the viewer thinks about a character by revealing more about the character.

Conversely, there was minimal character development in episode 10. In my mind, character development occurs when I character acts in one way, and then acts differently later in response to to some kind of trigger in the plot. Oreimo in general has been severely lacking in this department. The only real character development in this episode was the fact that Ayase now is willing to try to be friends with Kirino despite her anime/eroge obsessions. However, this is minimal development as Ayase still insists that she hates those things and beyond that it only involves a minor side-character rather than one of the main characters. We have not seen a lot of cases of events that change how the viewer feels about a character by changing how the character acts.

This isn't to say that what I describe as plot development is necessarily bad. I just find that if a character-driven show relies entirely on plot developments to define its characters rather than having those characters grow and change in their own right then the show feels quite hollow.
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Old 2010-12-07, 20:19   Link #138
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I don't want deliver a eulogy.... but a persistent theme in execution of anime seems to be "set up great premise, interesting characters, and then.... trip, stumble, do nothing, reset, fall, veer into left field, leave a pile of great arc starts on the ground". Doesn't matter what genre really - its like a character flaw of production teams.

Back on topic... I suppose the ultimate question is whether the series will lead people to read the source material and buy the products. So far its gotten me interesting in seeking out the source material but in some part due to aggravation
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:16   Link #139
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Pretty amusing episode despite the female lead >.> What I just want to know is when will he just punch her one right in the face. No brother I know would put up with being kicked and hit like that all the time. If I did that I would get hit back regardless if I'm a girl. It is getting really old.
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:24   Link #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DasDingus View Post
Triple_R covered most of what I wanted to say about the development (or lack thereof) in the characters of oreimo. I would, however, like to elaborate on the distinction I draw between character development and plot development and how it works with respect to ep10 of oreimo.

I feel like episode 10 had a lot of what I would call plot development.
I definitely see where you're coming from here. If you define "character development" very strictly, it means what you wrote here...


Quote:
In my mind, character development occurs when 1 character acts in one way, and then acts differently later in response to some kind of trigger in the plot.
That's what I tend to think of when I think of "character development" as well. It would probably be best to say that Ayase saw her character fleshed out a lot in this episode. Whether we chalk that up to plot development, or character development, at least the anime is taking the time to make Ayase a pretty intriguing and (in some ways surprisingly) complex character. That is something that I think Ore no Imouto deserves credit for.

To elaborate further on that, one thing that I think Ore no Imouto has going for it is that its primary supporting cast characters (Ayase, Kuroneko, Manami, and Saori) are all excellent. This is a very strong supporting cast for the two leads; it gives the two leads some good characters to play off of, and have as foils. Part of me just can't help but feel that perhaps even more could be done with these superb characters in being good contributors to Kyousuke and Kirino developing as characters too.


Quote:
Oreimo in general has been severely lacking in this department. The only real character development in this episode was the fact that Ayase now is willing to try to be friends with Kirino despite her anime/eroge obsessions. However, this is minimal development as Ayase still insists that she hates those things and beyond that it only involves a minor side-character rather than one of the main characters.
Well, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. Ayase has decided that she will make a honest attempt to engage in the parts of Kirino's hobby that don't conflict with Ayase's personal moral values. In other words, animes without much ecchi content, all-ages versions of visual novels/eroges perhaps, etc...

Personally, I think that's an admirably fair and reasonable approach on Ayase's part. It's a lot more thoughtful approach than her initial response several episodes ago of just painting everything of the otaku world with the same "It's indecent" brush.


Quote:
We have not seen a lot of cases of events that change how the viewer feels about a character by changing how the character acts.

This isn't to say that what I describe as plot development is necessarily bad. I just find that if a character-driven show relies entirely on plot developments to define its characters rather than having those characters grow and change in their own right then the show feels quite hollow.
Totally agree. Great points here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't want deliver a eulogy.... but a persistent theme in execution of anime seems to be "set up great premise, interesting characters, and then.... trip, stumble, do nothing, reset, fall, veer into left field, leave a pile of great arc starts on the ground". Doesn't matter what genre really - its like a character flaw of production teams.
Great points here too.

In fairness, part of it is probably the inherent difficulty in adapting a light novel with a lot of internal dialogue (i.e. a character speaking a lot in a narrator voice) that has not been concluded yet. Some of this content is just hard to translate over into a visual/audio medium like anime.

Still, some of the choices the production team has made for this anime are head-scratchers for me. There is a great premise and interesting characters here, but also some trips and stumbles to be sure. Oh well, I hope that this anime has a good ending with Episode 12 anyway. Next episode looks somewhat promising.
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