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Old 2010-12-07, 01:49   Link #6321
DKN117
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I still hold hope that not everyone in CE is irredeemable. For evidence, I present Zabuza, Neji, and Gaara. ESPECIALLY Gaara; kid went from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Good in just three years. Homura seems to have been rather indoctrinated from a young age in the style of the Numbers from Nanoha Striker S (and seven out of 12 of them turned good in the end), and she probably assumed that anyone she killed would be somehow instead sent to the Eternal Garden (lies told to her by Dynamis and/or Fate? Or perhaps even truth?). I can't see Dynamis going good, though, and I can only see Fate turning hero at the cost of his own life (a la Pain/Nagato). And at least some of Tsukuyomi's sadistic insanity could be the corrupting influence of the Demon Blade Hina.
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Old 2010-12-07, 09:12   Link #6322
Moczo
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Have we confirmed how long she's been using Hina, though? This is the first battle she's actually drawn the thing, and she's been acting crazy since... well, basically every appearance since her first. Plus she seems to have quite cheerfully and willingly given into the thing, so I'm not sure how much it's 'affecting' her personality as opposed to 'amplifying' her personality...
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Old 2010-12-07, 10:26   Link #6323
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Originally Posted by DKN117 View Post
I still hold hope that not everyone in CE is irredeemable. For evidence, I present Zabuza, Neji, and Gaara. ESPECIALLY Gaara; kid went from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Good in just three years. Homura seems to have been rather indoctrinated from a young age in the style of the Numbers from Nanoha Striker S (and seven out of 12 of them turned good in the end), and she probably assumed that anyone she killed would be somehow instead sent to the Eternal Garden (lies told to her by Dynamis and/or Fate? Or perhaps even truth?). I can't see Dynamis going good, though, and I can only see Fate turning hero at the cost of his own life (a la Pain/Nagato). And at least some of Tsukuyomi's sadistic insanity could be the corrupting influence of the Demon Blade Hina.
Gaara's Chaotic Evil is still different from Tsukuyomi's Chaotic Evil because Gaara's motivation and backstory was clearly explained. Gaara lashed out in hatred. Tsukuyomi enjoys what she does, and she always has been until Akamatsu shows otherwise. Even Tertium is more inclined to redeem himself than Tsukuyomi.
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Old 2010-12-07, 16:27   Link #6324
nines
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Tsukuyomi probably has a reason for only choosing Setsuna to fight against, shes interested in her obviously because she calls her Senpai but there has to be something that happened to her in the dojo that made her who she is, or maybe her parents died by her sensei or some stuff like that. I know we'll get a backstory on Tsukuyomi later on but from what I see she enjoys killing she pure evil atm but she might end up looking at Setsuna as an ojou I think O.o
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Old 2010-12-07, 17:55   Link #6325
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Tsukuyomi herself pretty much said that she has no Freudian excuse or even overriding motivations, though. She just enjoys killing stuff, particularly when that stuff puts up a good fight. I always got the impression that she's centered on Setsuna primarily because they use the same style of combat and are at similar levels of power, so the fight will be long and vicious before one of them goes down, which is exactly what Tsukuyomi wants.
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:26   Link #6326
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I think we can more or less agree that Tsukuyomi is the most blatantly evil villain and the least likely to redeem herself especially since Akumatsu hasn't given her any humanizing moments unlike most other antagonists in the series; the manga's morality scale definitely isn't a simple black and white affair. Whether or not the other antagonists will redeem themselves is up in the air, depending on how this arc ends.
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Old 2010-12-07, 22:20   Link #6327
DKN117
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I still think that Fate's girls have 'merely' been indoctrinated. If something big were to happen, they could be redeemed. And again, I draw attention to my comment on Homura thinking that 'killing' the good guys wouldn't have actually killed them.

And I still believe that only through death could Fate find redemption at this point.

And I am convinced (probably due to the whole Madara thing in Naruto) that the Master of the Grave is the one who's really pulling the strings amongst the bad guys right now.
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Old 2010-12-07, 22:55   Link #6328
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With enough of a big event, almost any character in any work of fiction can be redeemed. I actually see Homura as being more redeemable than Shirabe, since Homura at least seems to be dead-set on her actions being for a fully serious greater good (her enjoyment on roasting enemies alive seemed to be born out of self-righteous rage more than anything else) , while Shirabe actually takes smiling pleasure on mocking her enemies before trying to kill them (like she almost did to Nodoka). I find the latter much crueler than the former.

Fate is hard to pin down. Worse villains have been redeemed (Jeebus, Vegeta!), and I get the feeling the new Averrunci are a desperate attempt from Akamatsu to make Tertium look good by comparison. I wouldn't bother redeeming him, but we gotta admit he's the kind of character creators usually scramble to toss saves at mostly because they're so pretty and 'cool'.
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Old 2010-12-08, 01:04   Link #6329
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Originally Posted by DKN117 View Post
I still think that Fate's girls have 'merely' been indoctrinated. If something big were to happen, they could be redeemed. And again, I draw attention to my comment on Homura thinking that 'killing' the good guys wouldn't have actually killed them.
Don't see how you get that from "I will turn you to ash in an instant!", but even if it's the case, that's not really a justification for her clear enjoyment.

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With enough of a big event, almost any character in any work of fiction can be redeemed. I actually see Homura as being more redeemable than Shirabe, since Homura at least seems to be dead-set on her actions being for a fully serious greater good (her enjoyment on roasting enemies alive seemed to be born out of self-righteous rage more than anything else) , while Shirabe actually takes smiling pleasure on mocking her enemies before trying to kill them (like she almost did to Nodoka). I find the latter much crueler than the former.

Fate is hard to pin down. Worse villains have been redeemed (Jeebus, Vegeta!), and I get the feeling the new Averrunci are a desperate attempt from Akamatsu to make Tertium look good by comparison. I wouldn't bother redeeming him, but we gotta admit he's the kind of character creators usually scramble to toss saves at mostly because they're so pretty and 'cool'.
"Her enjoyment on roasting enemies alive seemed to be born out of self-righteous rage more than anything else"? Oh, yeah, that totally makes it okay. Let me introduce you to some guys in the Spanish Inquisition who probably felt much the same way...

Once again I go back to my line that blind devotion only goes so far. Whether or not Homura is following Fate, or LifeMaker, or Cosmo Entelecheia, she is ultimately responsible for her own actions. She's hardly being forced to do what she does, after all. And she might say the ends justify the means all she likes, but most evil people feel that they are doing things for whatever their "greater good" is, whether that's killing people remotely to rid the world of criminals or taking over a world filled with war in such a way that the only impetus for battle is to unseat its new despot. Good and evil are defined more by how you reach your goals than what your goals are. TL;DR: good people don't have to justify their means.

I have no idea what translation you read with Shirabe, but your raw at least must have been substandard to think she ever smiled. She was nothing but respectful during her confrontation with Nodoka, Chisame, and Paru, and was only going to kill(?) Honya (and only Honya) out of necessity. An evil act, certainly, but not one she appeared to enjoy, and she was on the battlefield. She's on the dark end of neutral; not as obviously evil as Homura.

And of course anyone can be redeemed in fiction. The question is how believable the author makes it. Vegeta is probably a bad example, since what redemption he did receive rang hollow thanks to the fact that it was fairly out of character, and he was clearly only keeping himself from killing Goku because he couldn't...yet... And he was getting some tail...

I don't think any of us are really arguing whether Fate, or Homura, or even Tsukuyomi "can" be redeemed. KA can do what he wants. If the story tells us they're redeemed, then they are. The argument is whether, at the end of the day, 1) it's a reasonable development, or 2) it's out of character or makes no sense and is thus bad writing. By that criteria, Homura is easily the easiest to redeem out of the three I mentioned in my previous post. Namely since neither of the other two would have any reason to wish to be redeemed. The only reason I could see Fate being redeemed (which is the same reason I left him off the evil list) is that I'm not sure whether he's always been self-aware enough to actually be evil. He probably is now, but the appearances of the other Averruncii only serve to illustrate how "programmed" onto his current path he may have been when he started out. Unlike Homura, he may very well have been "forced" by his ingrained nature into many of his evil actions.
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Old 2010-12-08, 03:37   Link #6330
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It's quite easy to fall into what we perceive as Evil, too. One could see Fate as being necessarily Evil in order to accomplish his goals. Otherwise, he's about as nice as Hades is in comparison to his brothers. And he's only opposing the good team because they chose to stay and fight.

He does however have his flaws. His perfection is the biggest one.

"Those who seek to improve themselves keep moving forward. The one who is completely perfect stands still." -- Some old quote I heard a while back.

The point is, perfection leads to stagnation. This has left him narrowsighted and pretty much incapable to see other points of view easily.
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Old 2010-12-08, 06:37   Link #6331
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IMHO the most likely thing happening (seem to remember faintly that someone, somewhere, mentioned that 312 weren't going to be a battlechapter) is that Mahora manages to use the extensive magical build-up to send Ala Rubla back to coup them out (not thinking that they'll actually manage to clean up, only reestabish Status Quo) ... so ... Eishun, Al and Eva going to pop there, protentially joining forces with Gödel and Takamichi, and plucking out Negi and co. in a charging retreat back to Mahora where they manage to close (but not destoying, merely locking it) the last gateway in a way so the timeline inside and outside is running equally fast, instead of MW running several weeks per day
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Old 2010-12-08, 07:21   Link #6332
ac195
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Have we confirmed how long she's been using Hina, though? This is the first battle she's actually drawn the thing, and she's been acting crazy since... well, basically every appearance since her first. Plus she seems to have quite cheerfully and willingly given into the thing, so I'm not sure how much it's 'affecting' her personality as opposed to 'amplifying' her personality...
I'm more interested in how she obtained the blade.
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Tsukuyomi probably has a reason for only choosing Setsuna to fight against, shes interested in her obviously because she calls her Senpai but there has to be something that happened to her in the dojo that made her who she is, or maybe her parents died by her sensei or some stuff like that. I know we'll get a backstory on Tsukuyomi later on but from what I see she enjoys killing she pure evil atm but she might end up looking at Setsuna as an ojou I think O.o
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Tsukuyomi herself pretty much said that she has no Freudian excuse or even overriding motivations, though. She just enjoys killing stuff, particularly when that stuff puts up a good fight. I always got the impression that she's centered on Setsuna primarily because they use the same style of combat and are at similar levels of power, so the fight will be long and vicious before one of them goes down, which is exactly what Tsukuyomi wants.
I don't think Akamatsu has given Tsukuyomi any characteristics that could be defined as "human."

Is she even human?

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if she was some sort of demon or half-breed... and if that was the case it would only be another reason for her deep obsession with Setsuna.
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Old 2010-12-08, 07:24   Link #6333
OverMaster
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I have no idea what translation you read with Shirabe, but your raw at least must have been substandard to think she ever smiled. She was nothing but respectful during her confrontation with Nodoka, Chisame, and Paru, and was only going to kill(?) Honya (and only Honya) out of necessity. An evil act, certainly, but not one she appeared to enjoy, and she was on the battlefield. She's on the dark end of neutral; not as obviously evil as Homura.
I remember her wryly smiling as she was about to do it, but maybe I am misremembering it.

As for Homura, my point is she seems more of the type that acts harshly because she doesnt think things any better, and never stops to consider she may be in the wrong. The true extent of her evil relies on what she would do once the fact she is in the wrong finally sinks into her.

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Is she even human?
IIRC, yes, Akamatsu said in one of the Q&As Tsukuyomi is fully human and born at Mundus Vetus.
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Old 2010-12-08, 10:17   Link #6334
Moczo
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I remember her wryly smiling as she was about to do it, but maybe I am misremembering it.
Looking back through the images, I don't see Shirabe making any expression but 'blank'. But on the other hand, when she was about to execute Nodoka, she makes note of the fact that she's surprised all three of them survived the attack she used to bring them down, which implies she was shooting to kill the whole time, so it kind of evens out.
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Old 2010-12-08, 11:52   Link #6335
nines
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Just re read a few of the chapters, 229 shows the forshadow of the multiple fates. So we've got earth, wind, fire, water. The 4 elements....im kinda interested in what elements or what affinities the 1st and 2nd could have. Im getting a feeling that we'll have a Super Fate vs Demonic Negi where fate fuses with the other elements then becomes the 2nd then he goes evolve again and becomes the 1st.

Kinda seems like a Freeza thing going on with Fate in my head :O
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Old 2010-12-09, 02:07   Link #6336
quigonkenny
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Just re read a few of the chapters, 229 shows the forshadow of the multiple fates. So we've got earth, wind, fire, water. The 4 elements....im kinda interested in what elements or what affinities the 1st and 2nd could have. Im getting a feeling that we'll have a Super Fate vs Demonic Negi where fate fuses with the other elements then becomes the 2nd then he goes evolve again and becomes the 1st.

Kinda seems like a Freeza thing going on with Fate in my head :O
Pretty sure Fate is just Fate. His one and only power-up is the GMK, (a cheat code designed to counter the human cheat code) which I honestly don't think will come into play when he finally tangles with Negi. His massive power level has been played up enough that any further enhancement would be cheap and unnecessary.

As for #1 and #2, I think the timeline as concerns the Fates is starting to become fairly clear.

We saw what happened to #1, who I'm pretty sure was confirmed as an earth Averruncus. Some time between the fall of Ostia and The Disappearance of Nagi Springfield, Dynamis summoned #2 (presumably as an earth-oriented redux of #1, but this is the only unclear point), who went on to defeat Nagi and be destroyed in the process. Shortly after (probably very shortly after), #3 popped out, clearly a redux of #1, and KE decided to bide its time until the events of the series. Some time since, Dynamis decided to set up #4-6 to pop out toward the end to ensure the job gets done. Whether it's due to an inability to have more than one Averruncus of each type active at a given time, or Dynamis' growing dissatisfaction at Fate's increasingly emotional demeanor (and the earth line's history of failure), none of #4-6 are earth-based.

That's where we are right now.
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Old 2010-12-09, 19:35   Link #6337
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Hey everybody. Just thought I'd drop in and introduce myself. Overmaster probably knows me from other forums.

As far as I can tell, the deal with the Fates is that #3 is a sort of reincarnation of #'s 1 and 2, but 4-6 are separate creations. My guess as to why they have different elements is because it gives the team diverse abilities. The more types of spells they can use, the more effective they can be when they get called into action.

I don't think any members of CE except for Tsukuyomi are irredeemably evil. Dynamis and Fate have obvious done some evil stuff, but they believe that they're acting in the interest of the greater good. It's not impossible that they could be shown the error of their ways.

Fate's minions are more blind followers than anything; chances are they haven't really thought through what they're doing. Even if they do, it's another one of those "Acting for the greater good" things. It seems like a case of going after a good thing in the wrong way.
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Last edited by JapaneseTeeth; 2010-12-09 at 19:38. Reason: forget some stuff
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Old 2010-12-09, 21:17   Link #6338
nines
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Ah, hmmm wasn't thinking about that since when Rakan went to fight Tetrium he said Nagi took out the other two so you should be the Avrencius of Earth. Which gave me the impression that there were other elements or types ahead of Tetrium.

But I still see a fusion-ha coming with the 3-6. Or we like said before Ala Rubra comes takes the new introduced ones out and Negi magically springs forth and somehow owns fate just in time for Mage of The Begining to come along.
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Old 2010-12-10, 00:30   Link #6339
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My money's against a fusion, it's not impossible, but I don't think the series is one for pulling fusion dances. Besides, one's a girl.
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Old 2010-12-10, 00:42   Link #6340
Fenrir_valindri
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Captain Planet incoming.
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