AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-12-11, 23:57   Link #2261
Decagon
This was meaningless
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Not on this site no more.
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
You are all heartless!

I teared the first time I read Togame's death, but from the last couple of posts most seemed not as affected by the scene, which made Vexx's point earlier debatable. The Chinese forums were filled with emo posts and everyone here just seemed to find the long, long death speech rather boring. My somewhat sadistic anticipation of people's rage toward this ending was rather disappointed, though the English community's rather simple acceptance served to make 2ch's hatred for the ending even more hilarious (then again, what doesn't 2chn hate). I wonder if this is just the farewell scene was treated poorly (wonder what Shichika actually said, which is an anime original), or just that TAKE's design is that much win that as long as you look pretty you're forgiven.

There's also the issue of plot, which I do agree with Daniel Lind that is the weakest and most BS element in this story, was barely debated here at the end. Or did everyone just ended up being super thrilled by Shichika's Boss Rush? I think Nisio should've just changed Shichika's attitude to Hiteihime in the end to that of "You killed my waifu, so I'm taking your body as payment" for maximum trollage effect.
Echoing earlier sentiments, Togame's last words scene could have had more sadness/regret on her part but personally this may have been the direction they intended to take if you assume Togame did not want to look weak or regretful in her last moments with Shichika. She's been portrayed as being cold, calculating, and single-minded in pursuing her goal since the begining of the series though she has changed through her interactions with Shichika. She was a strong and noble character who died a rather ignoble death which can probably be seen as penance for how she's used people over the years. I thought Togame's filial piety was very admirable and that the deep romance between lord and vassal (not talking about love romance here) between her and Shichika came to fruition when he chose to storm the castle seeking a place to die.

See, I would have been fine if Shichika died too. That would have been accomplishing his goal and if he achieved Togame's goal with that I'd have considered it a happy end. For me Togame's last words were an appropriate enough ending that I didn't care much for what happened afterward because we know she was able to be open with him and that their love was mutual.
Decagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 00:08   Link #2262
Nosauz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 25
It's obvious where Togame is lying and when she's telling the truth, the reflection of her reality, in her pool of blood, but again it's the immortalizing of the galiant death, death with meaning, which isn't tragic at all, frivolous death is actually the tragic thing, death that has no meaning, thathas no explanation. At least for all the characters that die, their deaths bring meaning to the story in some sense, although in their own personal respects in life, they were able to fight for their lord/friends/lovers, they died doing what they valued, not being shot by a random bullet in a drive by meant for the gangbanger on the street. This is why her death isn't impactful, her death is a wish fulfillment, when righting a story it's hard to not want to expunge all the thoughts of your dying character, you want the character understood, but not giving that verbose end has greater power, greater intensity, because of the unfinished "business" aspect of it. The notion their life wasn't understood, that their feelings weren't accepted, that's why when somebodies parent dies for the family memebers that had confrontations with that person, it's supremely tragic, the tragedy lies in the way we perceive our lives. We want to die heroic deaths, to make our lives and deaths have meaning, and unfortunately even though you can tell Togame really loves Shichika, she is the one that steers him to the keep, she's the one that forces him to not value his life. She is a strategist and she understood him so well that eventhough she doesn't want him to fulfill her vengeance she gets him to do it anyway.
Nosauz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 00:17   Link #2263
karinvampire
Ka Ra Ku Ri
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Boogie down Bronx
Something I noticed when watching it subbed,Hitel never gave up Togame's true identity in the end. She simply said "she died" I guess she still didn't want to give it away.(I guess out of respect or something) IDK lol I understood Hitel a lot more in this episode,I liked her so I didn't mind the end.

Yeah I also didn't see Togame's death as tragic(she was my favorite character too),seem more like she was relived to be free of the burden and revenge that she had....I did like that at least she admitted that she was in love with Shichika.
karinvampire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 00:22   Link #2264
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decagon View Post
...
See, I would have been fine if Shichika died too. That would have been accomplishing his goal and if he achieved Togame's goal with that I'd have considered it a happy end. ...
Yeah, I would have been more fine with a "Crouching Hidden" sort of ending like that.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:00   Link #2265
Master Chibi
.: A bad doggy :.
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
I hated this episode.

I loved this episode.

Spoiler for Why I loved / hated it.:


__________________
~*Hai! Back to Japan!

Updated once a week - http://pishi.wordpress.com/
Last updated - 5/30/10 - Random Manga Roulette!

Last edited by Master Chibi; 2010-12-12 at 20:09.
Master Chibi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:22   Link #2266
Mercurius
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Perfect and beautiful beyond words. Thus the year-long journey ends. One of the most riveting and compelling series I have ever watched.

I sincerely hope that they release a box set for the Blu-Rays, as I am unable to justify $700 for 12 'episodes'. Also definitely need to pick up the novels at some point.

Spoiler for Novel Question:
__________________
Mercurius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:37   Link #2267
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Ironically, Shikizaki did change history by doing something no other Japanese has done in history : map the entirety of Japan.

So Hitei-hime became Shichika's new lover? Go figure.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:46   Link #2268
Janifuu
緩和
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So Hitei-hime became Shichika's new lover? Go figure.
Again, why do people assume this? No where does it indicate that they became "lovers". In fact it was evident that Shichika's love for Togame pretty much remained intact even despite her death. Not attacking you by any means, it just seems that numerous people in general had speculated on this idea and it couldn't be farther from the truth.
Janifuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:46   Link #2269
Windows X
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
For me, I don't know where the flaw I could think of this last episode in animation. Animation was portrayed in pretty good way with enough symbols to fill the gap between novel and animation.

I love how Togame's splitting her emotional self and her egocentric self towards goal during lasting words. It must be hard for seiyuu to voice in this manner.
I love how Togame planned Shichika to avenge her from start and end up wanting to free him and start to really love him before dying.
I love how Togame chose to leave Shichika with the real her while fearing he might hate her from that.
I love how Togame cared for Hitei and pass her thanks to woman knowing she's the one who ordered her death sentence. This is a key factor for Shichika to spare Hitei's life.

I love how Shichika was brave enough to accept the truth without his heart being swayed by his delusions. He easily adapt to the change and realize how Yousha really feels. He's really cute and honest ones of the kind.
I love how Shichika asked Hitei to confirm her feelings that Togame isn't only one who cherish Hitei. Though I don't think her answer will change the outcome of her fate since he brought that mask for her as keepsake like he kept Togame's hair so he intended to spare Hitei anyway.
I love how Shichika really understands Togame's dying wish but chose to kill Shogunate regardless of her vengeance. That bastard made Togame wasted her whole life and need to make an example out of someone like that.

I love how Hitei really cared Emonzaemon as the one she really can trust enough to grow some part of love inside of her as you can still see her wearing his mask as keepsake.
I love how noble Hitei was by asking for death wish right after hearing Emonzaemon's last words. It must be tearful inside of her to the extent that she doesn't care seeing her goal being fulfilled or not before her death. I also like how shogunate acting coward afterwords too lol.
I love how she regretted in killing Yousha while talking about her. It maybe my imagination though but I think Togame thanked Hitei for freeing her from burdens and finally fell for Shichika with happy death.

This episode is fucking awesome and I can't think of better ending than this. Shichika being dead at the end? It'd be better staying alive seeing their resolves in epilogue. Hitei and Shichika are both broken at climax scene and finally we can see them in some shape like how she sees him like certain someone (Togame? lol).

I don't think Shichika can forgive Hitei for killing Togame and Hitei won't fall for Shichika who killed her beloved Emonzaemon anytime soon so they won't be a couple for a while until times cure their pains. But as they both lost their own peace of mind and understand each other's pains, it wouldn't be surprised to see them pairing in the end anyway.

10/10!

Last edited by Windows X; 2010-12-12 at 03:09.
Windows X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 02:55   Link #2270
karinvampire
Ka Ra Ku Ri
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Boogie down Bronx
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Ironically, Shikizaki did change history by doing something no other Japanese has done in history : map the entirety of Japan.

So Hitei-hime became Shichika's new lover? Go figure.
Lol honestly I don't think Shichika has any interest in anyone but Togame(dead or alive). I think they're together simply because they have no one else in the world,both of their most closet companions are dead soooo yeah.(plus I think hitel is the one following,shichika around)
karinvampire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 03:05   Link #2271
Ottocycle
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
EDIT: I keep forgetting to ask, OST when!?!?
Dec 22, 2010.
Ottocycle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 03:44   Link #2272
Nochgo
iceman
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: CO, USA
Oh man, I was expecting a powerful episode from how eps 11 ended last time, but to think it was this amazing. Togame's last words and Shichika's responses were some of the most touching dialogue I've heard in anime. And the way how Shichika became a beast while remaining completely sane ran a chill down my spine; a show of just how much he loved Togame. I was sure he was going to go down the 'berserk' trope and become an unstoppable killer, but that didn't happen to my delight. Oh, and of course I got my share of action as well. And the episode ends on a lighter note, lessening the bittersweet feeling I had for the majority of the episode (not that I minded). It really was the perfect ending to an incredible series.
__________________
Nochgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 05:04   Link #2273
pikachuwei
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Zealand
im still trying to get it around my head what happens
__________________
pikachuwei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 05:57   Link #2274
Haak
Watching Ookami Shoujo...
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Unfortunately I was already spoiled on Togame's death, partly because of some idiots spoiling it in the Bakemonogatari forum and partly because of the fact that some genius felt the need to give this thread the 'Tragedy' tag.

It went by a little fast so I wasn't able to fully take in why Shichika didn't feel hatred for Hitei or why he did hate the Shogunate but I can understand why now.

Shichika killed a lot of people, but at least he didn't kill the kid. I still don't quite understand how the fuck he survived though...
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:11   Link #2275
Windows X
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Shichika didn't feel hatred for Hitei? I'm pretty sure he still has some lingering feelings in castle though Hitei's answer may soften him a bit to let her accompany with him in epilogue.

For Hitei, it's just that Togame doesn't hate Hitei. She understands why Hitei has to act this way as fellow royal affairs. She also feel thankful for her as her whole life being suck and end with happy death. If it weren't for Hitei killing Togame, she would have to kill Shichika and finish her vengeance living the rest of her life in regrets. Seeing Togame dying happily, how can he kill the last person in this world whom Togame really cherish in life? Or maybe it's just Shichika giving her sympathy for effort to sacrifice her dear friend and loved ones to archive her own goal like Togame. Though in the end she couldn't let go of Emonzaemon dying by asking to kill Shichika.

For that shogunate, he ordered Shichika's father to behead Yousha's father. He is the reason why Togame wasted her whole life for this idiot and something like this need to be punished.

Personally, I prefer Hitei before being cute though. Her dishonest to show her kindness is really something eventhough I may not really find it pleasant in real-life. Maybe I'm also one like this kind of character too.

Last edited by Windows X; 2010-12-12 at 06:26.
Windows X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:34   Link #2276
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed View Post
Shichika really did want to die back there but he could not just lay down and have anybody kill him. As a warrior, the Kyotōryuu head and the completed 13th deviant blade, he had to fall in battle and his greatest chance of that was to get in a fight with Emonzaemon as he was the closest match for him.

Or Shichika could have been lying to everybody (himself included) like Togame and was just there to get some hardcore revenge by kicking everybodys asses
Why should he even care about that at this point? If he had truly given up on life, nothing else would have mattered. In fact, after everything he's learned, he should have rejected his "destiny" as the final deviant balde. I'll go with him lying to himself. Or rather, he was so grief-stricken he didn't even know what he wanted the most: revenge or death? After accomplishing his revenge, he most likely calmed down and decided to honor Togame's final wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
You are all heartless!

I teared the first time I read Togame's death, but from the last couple of posts most seemed not as affected by the scene, which made Vexx's point earlier debatable. The Chinese forums were filled with emo posts and everyone here just seemed to find the long, long death speech rather boring. My somewhat sadistic anticipation of people's rage toward this ending was rather disappointed, though the English community's rather simple acceptance served to make 2ch's hatred for the ending even more hilarious (then again, what doesn't 2chn hate). I wonder if this is just the farewell scene was treated poorly (wonder what Shichika actually said, which is an anime original), or just that TAKE's design is that much win that as long as you look pretty you're forgiven.

There's also the issue of plot, which I do agree with Daniel Lind that is the weakest and most BS element in this story, was barely debated here at the end. Or did everyone just ended up being super thrilled by Shichika's Boss Rush? I think Nisio should've just changed Shichika's attitude to Hiteihime in the end to that of "You killed my waifu, so I'm taking your body as payment" for maximum trollage effect.

One thing's for sure though, WHITE FOX has gotta be the most loyal company in creating adaption from novels, whether that is a + or - is up for debate.
I'm probably a bit heartless, but there are two reasons I felt nothing here:
  1. I had all the time in the world to brace myself for Togame's death, since I was spoiled months ago. The month between ep 11 and 12 would have probably been enough as well. I think it would have been more impactful to end episode 11 with Togame's death.
  2. Togame's dying speech was simply terrible. It lasted too long, and there was little to emotion in Togame's voice. At times, she sounded like she was reading a book. Shichika was great in that scene, though. Lack of tears was also a problem. I'm not asking her to cry a river, but a little tear running down her cheek would have been nice.

In the end, Nanami's death hit me harder than Togame's.


About Shichika and Hitei... it's pretty damn obvious to me that they're going to end up together at some point. There's no way nothing is going to happen between the two of them if they keep traveling together. Don't forget Hitei is very similar to Togame, it wouldn't be that surprising if Shichika eventually fell in love with her.
__________________
Mikan & Yami
Kanon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:40   Link #2277
Soraya21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Somewhere in this thread I remember reading that this was a series with a huge WTF?! ending to it, and I have to say that this last episode was pretty shocking.

Probably the thing that surprised me the most was that Hitei was never really Togame's enemy to begin with. And it terms of why Shichika shared her, I think it simply has to do with him seeing traits of Togame within her. This is also reflective on how she acts after her ancestors' plans of falsifying history fail. Much like Togame at the moment of her death, Hitei bacame free from family shackles and was able to live life normally without the constant planning and scheming.

The series took awhile to finally finish up, but all in all it was a good ride.
Soraya21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:40   Link #2278
Shiroth
Beautiful fighter.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England, UK
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
About Shichika and Hitei... it's pretty damn obvious to me that they're going to end up together at some point. There's no way nothing is going to happen between the two of them if they keep traveling together. Don't forget Hitei is very similar to Togame, it wouldn't be that surprising if Shichika eventually fell in love with her.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "damn obvious". I like to think that Togame will be the only woman ever for Shichika, and he'll honor those feelings by not getting together with anyone else. He can easily just travel around with Hitei without anything happening between the two.
__________________
Shiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:46   Link #2279
Soraya21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
About Shichika and Hitei... it's pretty damn obvious to me that they're going to end up together at some point. There's no way nothing is going to happen between the two of them if they keep traveling together. Don't forget Hitei is very similar to Togame, it wouldn't be that surprising if Shichika eventually fell in love with her.
I kinda have to agree with this. It may take Shichika quite some time before he starts to open up himself to someone else again, but from what I got out of those final scenes, it seemed like Hitei was showing signs of falling for him.
Soraya21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-12, 06:47   Link #2280
Kunagisa
赤緑黒白
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Shichika killed a lot of people, but at least he didn't kill the kid. I still don't quite understand how the fuck he survived though...
All lolis get to live! As for how he survived ... I just think of him as a sword, you can't kill a sword unless you shoot away every last part of it right? Guy's practically inhuman. Makes you wonder how strong Nanami really is after watching this episode .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
About Shichika and Hitei... it's pretty damn obvious to me that they're going to end up together at some point. There's no way nothing is going to happen between the two of them if they keep traveling together. Don't forget Hitei is very similar to Togame, it wouldn't be that surprising if Shichika eventually fell in love with her.
But if Hiteihime's similar to Togame, Shichika wouldn't fall for her because the quality of Togame that Shichika was attracted to will not surface since everything is over already. Shichika's character growth was based on the entirety of Togame's sacrifice (well his sister too), I wouldn't think he would forget that. I like how everything comes full circle at the end, even the "cool" line that Togame came up with in Episode 2 was used at the end here, eliciting cutest response from Hiteihime.

Last edited by Kunagisa; 2010-12-12 at 07:02. Reason: Can't forget Nanami!
Kunagisa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, adventure, comedy, edo setting, light novel adaptation, nishio, romance, tragedy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.