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Old 2010-12-11, 23:41   Link #21
Lost Cause
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
I suppose that soldiers get attached to their babies.
Either that or the bureaucrats figure it's "good enough" or "hey it's worked for this long why change it" atitude! They'll spend billions on carriers or new fighters but not one red cent on a new rifle, the very basic weapon used in a fight! Plus new tech manuals, training, and equipment.
Here's a new one. Which do you prefer; Semi automatic pistol or Revolver for general use and self defence?
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Old 2010-12-11, 23:44   Link #22
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
The xm8 also showed a much lower fail and jam rate too. It is also one of the (if not the) most customizable gun out there.
and it virtually has LITTLE RECOIL!
seen a vid with the testers of H&K loading an XM8 with a C drum and holding it ONE HAND
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Old 2010-12-11, 23:45   Link #23
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This is what really irks me about military US spending.
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:01   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
Either that or the bureaucrats figure it's "good enough" or "hey it's worked for this long why change it" atitude! They'll spend billions on carriers or new fighters but not one red cent on a new rifle, the very basic weapon used in a fight! Plus new tech manuals, training, and equipment.
Here's a new one. Which do you prefer; Semi automatic pistol or Revolver for general use and self defence?
Revolvers are more reliable, however they have a much lower capacity. I prefer a good semi-auto because of the slim size, and the ability to get off twice the shots without reloading. Someone else might prefer the revolver due to it's simplicity and feel they don't need the additional shots. With semi-autos like the Glock, the reliability issue seems to blur a bit as they are considered the AK of semi-auto handguns.

Oh and Linda, if Soldiers are complaining about range past 500 yards, believe me, our Soldiers have the distance and accuracy advantage tenfold over anyone using a standard AK. Accurate those guns generally aren't. They do take abuse better than our M16 design I will give them that...
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:04   Link #25
Asuras
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Oh and Linda, if Soldiers are complaining about range past 500 yards, believe me, our Soldiers have the distance and accuracy advantage tenfold over anyone using a standard AK.
Boo ya. My cousin told me that the Taliban have the aim of a four year old, which of course is an exaggeration, but you get the picture.
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:09   Link #26
Lost Cause
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This is what really irks me about military US spending.
This says it all! It's good enough for "important people" but not for the private down in the mud and blood! Very typical of how our government takes care of our military personel.
Dragon Skin was also featured on 'Future Weapons' as well.
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:10   Link #27
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
as far as i know, there were contenders....

M4A1 - yeah, pretty much our standards
XM8 - lighter than most, but parts quickly melt... and also damn expensive....
HK 416 - accuracy of an M4, reliability of an AK, and hardy parts from H&K
FN SCAR (L) - gentlemen.... meet FN's response to 416

also... lets have the vets do some melancholy...

M1 garand - 8 rounds of 30-06 firing VERY accurately at you.
M1903 springfield - you hear it, you're already dead
Lee Enfield SMLE - reliable, and deadly accurate too
M14 - its a bitch in full auto (yeah, my experience is that my shoulder was hurting much after 2 MAGAZINES of pure 20 rounds were unloaded) but accurate in semi
M16 (not the latest A4, the vietnam war era) - light, accurate, but WTF it jams?!
AK47 (the original version) - gentlemen, go into unknown areas, carry THIS

also, i can now rage at the FAMAS...
WTHISTHATRIDICULOUSLYHUGECARRYINGHANDLEFORANYWAY is all....
BLASPHEMER!!!!
You forgot the FAL!!
It's probably one of the greatest Battle-Rifles (subtype of an assault rifle) ever created.

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Old 2010-12-12, 00:18   Link #28
Asuras
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In other news: Naval enemies are closer to being screwed over.

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Old 2010-12-12, 00:25   Link #29
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
also, i can now rage at the FAMAS...
WTHISTHATRIDICULOUSLYHUGECARRYINGHANDLEFORANYWAY is all....
now that looks..... interesting

btw the PLA is using something that looks like that and it's called QBZ 95

Last edited by flying ^; 2010-12-12 at 00:40.
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:28   Link #30
Asuras
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Which looks absolutely ugly.



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Old 2010-12-12, 00:44   Link #31
flying ^
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Which looks absolutely ugly.



interesting clips of the QBZ
stay awake though because this segment is dry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIMqv...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PjUI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GRVY...eature=related
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Old 2010-12-12, 01:00   Link #32
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
also, i can now rage at the FAMAS...
WTHISTHATRIDICULOUSLYHUGECARRYINGHANDLEFORANYWAY is all....
Strange, my chef have a good opinion of it from his time on the french army.
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Old 2010-12-12, 01:29   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
BLASPHEMER!!!!
You forgot the FAL!!
It's probably one of the greatest Battle-Rifles (subtype of an assault rifle) ever created.

yeah, forgot that thing, but like the M14, i can say this when i manned it....

WHY THE FUCK WILL YOU NOT OBEY ME IN FULL AUTO?!?!

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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Strange, my chef have a good opinion of it from his time on the french army.
i like its performance tho, but that carrying handle which acts as its sight just made me say that portion of it is FUGLY....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Which looks absolutely ugly.



actually, i'd prefer the L85A1\SA80 and the AUG if i were to choose them...

i like its carrying handle and front sights, nothing more.
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Old 2010-12-12, 03:37   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Now, is it me, or are silenced weapon not actually to silent in real life? I've seen quite a few snipers on Future Weapons with a silencer, and the shot sound was still quite loud. Was that just the silencer, or are they just overexaggerated in movies and such?



The FN Scar series did manage to make it as SOCOM's main weapon, but...

H-Scar, 416, and the 417 all went head-to-head with the XM8, which proved to be a beauty, but the US canclled it's implimenation. Such a shame.

Same with dragonskin; it provides exponentially higher defence to its wearers, but our damned US gov't bannored it!!!
Likely because of $.
"Silenced" weapons are not actually silent. The sound is greatly reduced, typically to a "pew-pew" sound instead of a loud BANG. They are great for close quarters and urban warfare, where sound bouncing around off of walls and through corridors can not only be disorienting, but potentially damaging to your ears.


Don't forget that your country's weaponry is built by the lowest bidder (e.g. M92fs). Lesson learned.
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Old 2010-12-12, 04:07   Link #35
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
"Silenced" weapons are not actually silent. The sound is greatly reduced, typically to a "pew-pew" sound instead of a loud BANG. They are great for close quarters and urban warfare, where sound bouncing around off of walls and through corridors can not only be disorienting, but potentially damaging to your ears.


Don't forget that your country's weaponry is built by the lowest bidder (e.g. M92fs). Lesson learned.
well the Finns say this to the silencer...

"it doesnt make you silent, but it DOES make you invisible"

also, heard that silencers\sound suppressors lessen the bullet velocity...
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Old 2010-12-12, 08:33   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
BLASPHEMER!!!!
You forgot the FAL!!
It's probably one of the greatest Battle-Rifles (subtype of an assault rifle) ever created.
The FAL was the Right Arm of the Free World during the Cold War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
AK's jam more, obviously. But their cheapness and ease of learning to handle is why they are so preffered for poor countries or terrorists.
The number one cause of a stoppage in a Kalashnikov will most likely be the cartridge failing to go off and not the actual weapon jamming.

The AK was designed around the idea of it being used by poorly educated peasant soldiers and as such was built with rather large tolerances with plenty of room between all the components. This in turn decreased the weapon's precision and increased the weight but it'd never give up on you.

There have been tests where a Kalashnikov has had the receiver completely filled with sand and the weapon still fired without a hitch.

They're a good weapon in the right scenario but on paper or in a non-combat situation like a commercial rifle range they can not compete with the accuracy or handling of most western rifles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuras View Post
Now, is it me, or are silenced weapon not actually to silent in real life? I've seen quite a few snipers on Future Weapons with a silencer, and the shot sound was still quite loud. Was that just the silencer, or are they just overexaggerated in movies and such?
A suppressor is designed primary to be used with sub-sonic ammunition. Using a suppressor with regular velocity rounds will only serve to shorten the life of the can but it will still hide the muzzle flash and offer a degree of noise suppression.

But depending on the calibre this could be as little as a 10-20dB reduction compared to an unsuppressed high velocity shot.

There aren't many cartridges that once fitted with a suppressor will actually be "silent".

However I've had a play with one or two suppressed .22 LR's over here - they aren't exactly legal here - and when using subsonic loads in them, the gunshot is so inaudible all you can really hear is the firing pin going off.

Was great fun because it meant we were able to shoot rabbits on the university's oval without alerting anyone.

Well except for the massive spot light that'd come on intermittently during the night only to fade soon after a rabbit had been shot.

Good times.
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Old 2010-12-12, 10:15   Link #37
Renegade334
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The M4/M16 vs. AK47 debate has been hashed, rehashed, killed and buried a long time ago. Aside from fanboys and hardliners spouting their usual "take this one it rules because I'm the one saying it", the general consensus is that both rifles have their advantages and flaws (M16 wins on range and accuracy, whereas AK47 wins on stopping power and resilience) and there's no real winner. It's actually all up to the shooter.

M16s have come a long ways since Vietnam. Yes, the US know that because of the propellant ONCE used in the 5.56x45mm rounds, the gas impingement tube could get clogged up with soot. No longer. This is no news - in fact, partway through the VN war, the US forces started issuing new cleaning protocols to ensure that the rifles were properly maintained. Earlier advertisements claimed that the M16 was a "self-cleaning rifle" and that had disastrous consequences. Now everyone knows that if you're not careful and don't clean up every once in a while, the rifle will jam. Heck, recent studies even incriminated the 30-round ammo mags and compelled groups like PEO Soldier to fix the issues. All rifles are not immune against jamming - US and British forces realized in the Middle East when they realized that talcum-thin dust and sand penetrated pretty much everything and could do serious damage. Even an AK47 can fall victim to it and it never was a stranger to jamming, despite its reputation. Some models could easily encounter what we call "stovepipe jams" - though they're pretty much easy to clear and do not require disassembly.

As for the AN-94 which was mentioned earlier, well, yes, it's powerful but its internal layout is complicated enough (since it has that two-round fast-tracking system) that the Russian Federation prefers to keep the procurement plan confined to the Special Forces only. The regular army will keep using the AK74 and the newer AK10Xs.


As for "nobody likes the M16", well, sorry to burst your bubble but there are plenty of conflicting reports about that. The US Forces routinely carry out satisfaction researches (not to mention reports from war correspondents embedded in small companies, tagging along for the fun) among the troops and most of them are satisfied with AR15-type weapons, though shortcomings have emerged in areas like Afghanistan (the 5.56mm not being powerful enough to punch through walls and cinderblock, insufficient range for M4s). The GIs and Marines out there know how to use their weapons - slapping EOTechs, SureFires, vertical grips on the rifle - like so many aficionados and self-appointed pundits who only show up at conventions like ShotShow - will certainly increase its efficiency but it means squat if you don't know to handle it in the first place. Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are trained to maintain the AR15s - they KNOW about the issues so please, let's stop acting like we are breaking this story to the world. Some GIs frequently use the M4s and M16A4s in Afghanistan, through many kinds of environment - dust, rock and even small farms coursing with irrigation ditches they sometimes have to dive into. Yet no "OMG it jams curse you quality control" outbreak has reached the media's attention the way it did during the VN war. That phase is practically over. Forever committed to memory for future reference, yes, but over already.


Some people advocate the switch to GP-type rifles (Gas Piston) and abandon DGI (Direct Gas Impingement) - for now most seem to agree that PG is cool but it also met its own stack of problems, like short-stroking (which can force the shooter to disassemble the upper receiver or handguard, depending on the model) and torque issues during recoil (which has forced engineers to thicken the barrels in order to preserve life expectancy all the while sacrificing lightness...and thus mobility). Colt has already studied (and is currently patenting) hybrid gas piston designs but has yet to completely make the transition, because the DGI block is actually lighter than the GP alternative and soldiers are now used to it. The prototype they used for the USMC's IAR competition - the 6940 / 6940H - still retained a DGI block instead of the new GP block/pusher rod duo. Colt has already fielded a monolithic upper receiver AR15 model featuring GP (CM-901 Advanced Piston Carbine) for both 7.62 and .223, but it's still in testing phase. It goes without saying that GP has a bright future in front of it but not everyone is ready to jump the ship, especially when it means re-training everyone and peeling one's wallet wi~de open (Colt is thinking about selling modular upper receivers for quick switches but it still means paying out big bucks).

The XM8 was cancelled for too many reasons. Budget cuts, suspicions of favoritism towards HK voiced by different arms manufacturers and the fact that, just like the ACR competition in the 1980s, the weapon didn't deliver anything truly groundbreaking (we're not talking about a very low amount of jams, but lethality-wise). Even the ACR, which fielded even more eyebrow-raising models (the flechette-launching Steyr ACR, the H&K recoilless, caseless rifle), couldn't replace the M16 because the candidates failed to truly impress the bigwigs (the Steyr had deadly ricochet issues when fired from the prone position, and the G11 caseless ammunition could catch fire and set its entire mag ablaze, if improperly or insufficiently cooled). Even the SCAR is starting to feel the US Army's growing second doubts - they're now wondering whether they should just produce the SCAR-H and just ditch the SCAR-L (quite a setback for FN Herstal because Colt recently managed to snatch the new M240B contract from under the noses, mirroring the episode where FN stole Colt's M16A2 contract; revenge is a dish best eaten cold, as they say).

Right now the focus is on several points such as finding an intermediate caliber (6.5mm Grendel / 6.8mm Remington SPC) between the 5.56 and the 7.62, ironing out the AR15 issues (they recently realized that the US Army was much better off using the HB barrel instead of the regular one so as to increase longevity and prevent heat dissipation problems when in full-auto; issuing better ammo mags) and weight reduction (PEO Soldier recently fielded out the M240L, a short-barreled, collapsible stock-equipped version of the M240 for paratroopers). That last part is even taken to a higher degree with the current R&D made on AAI's LSAT machine gun, which uses patented technology (caseless/telescopic rounds) from the H&K G11 to reduce ammo weight and volume by respectively 50% and 40%.

We're also witnessing a return to old guns - the M14 has been given a new life with the M14 EBR and Mk14 and now they revamped the old M40/M24 into the XM2010. Why? M16 not being powerful enough - though the Brits have introduced a new AR15-type, PSG1-equivalent for their troops in Afghanistan, BTW: the L129A1.

Last but not least, they recently sent several XM25 counter-defilade weapons to Afghanistan to see how well they perform onsite. It's supposed to be five times more effective than either the XM320 or the M203, so we will probably witness another tactics shift should the XM25 prove itself as a potential gamechanger.

BTW, this pic here is a classic. Not sure if anyone has more of those.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2010-12-12 at 12:17.
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Old 2010-12-12, 11:52   Link #38
JMvS
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I'm Swiss, so of course I've a least one gun, and handled some others.

The Confederation was kind enough to give me a Stgw 90 (SIG SG 550), which I'm keeping at home (but they took back our cans of ammo ), and which I use at least once a year, for 300 m shooting practice. Prior to majority, I also practiced with another one in a shooting society.


Aside from that I have fired mostly with 22.LR carbines in the backyard of our chalet when I was a kid.
When I was even younger, I've toyed a fair share with my dad's Stgw 57 (SIG SG 510). That was quite a heavy beast, but a beautiful one, a pity he didn't retain it at the end of his obligations. For now I hope I'll find one for my collection.


I also have a Schmidt-Rubin rifle, which I got when they liquidated the half million of those they had in stock a few years ago. I've yet to try shooting with it, but am not too impatient, as I'd prefer proper training, for with it's GP 11 cartridge it has a pretty violent recoil.
I also have my grandfather's OP00 (Swiss Luger P08 pistol in 7.65x21mm Parabellum). I've yet to try it, but this ammo is not the easiest to find (he kept a few boxes of ordnance rounds, but after so many decades...).


One of my dreams is to get a Pistole 49 (SIG P210), but those are quite expensive...
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Old 2010-12-12, 13:59   Link #39
GundamFan0083
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
yeah, forgot that thing, but like the M14, i can say this when i manned it....

WHY THE FUCK WILL YOU NOT OBEY ME IN FULL AUTO?!?!
I know right?
It also suffers from a "bang-bang-Jam" phenomena due to its drop-down bolt system when fired in full-automatic.
However, the civilian semi-auto ONLY versions are great (I own two, a para and a full-length, both made by DSA).

Another excellent weapon--though quite expensive--that I've had the pleasure of shooting is the SIG 556.
It combines the best features of the Ak, the FAL, and the AR15 into one well-balanced and versatile rifle.


Here's the civilian version available to US citizens in most states.

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Old 2010-12-12, 14:39   Link #40
Vexx
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Its always amusing to watch someone fire "full auto" for the first time ... particularly gamers. Tain't like the games (though I've found a few games that try to model the effect). A couple of my wife's cousins are firearms dealers and will occasionally bring their latest full-auto toy to family gatherings (target shooting being a standard part of most holidays).

Not much to say otherwise, I've been shrinking my personal armory over the years to a few preferred implements. I have a Glock 30 (short barrel .45acp), my tiny but fearsome wife uses a Glock 19 (short barrel 9mm). We have a home defense shotgun (Mossberg 500 modified pistolgrip/foldingstock) and a few other items. My favorite is a pure toy, a .22cal magnum western-style derringer (2 shots). It has an effective range of about 5 feet - its primary purpose being to made a noise like a cannon with an amazing flash. I pull it out on firework holidays and shoot it at night. It literally fits in my hand. (not my blog, just happens to be the same model).

My brother owns both an AR and an AK amongst other things .... in his estimate the difference is a matter of weight/reliability/ease-of-field-repair, and the AK edges out. The AR is more accurate *when it works* I've always wanted to try an SIG 556 (one of my favorites in Ghost Recon and other games).

Caveat: we live in a rural sector where most everyone target shoots on their land.
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