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Old 2010-12-12, 12:01   Link #1261
Deacon Blues
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While I sort of agree with what omnicat has to say, they still didn't characterize her all that well in the show. She's the stepdaughter of a Foreign Affairs Minister who was always tagging along with him to the colonies. I don't know many kids that are actually apprised of the situation whose parents do diplomatic work. She commented in Episode.01 about how her father needs to spend more time with her, yet later on she's magically at the helm of an entire kingdom carrying on her "father's ideals". She talked the talk but she couldn't really walk the walk. For such a young teenager she seemed a bit too grown up for her own good... stubborn or not. I'm interested in hearing about this sort of situation given the situation around Endless Waltz. She was advocating the terraformation of Mars (if you follow the EW manga route), so it's rather bizarre that she'd snap.

Either that or she handed things off to Dorothy while she felt she'd be better off in the future or something.
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「では、人間は、何故、戦うのか?
戦うことに存在意義があるのかもしれない。
戦っている人間には充実感がある。
そして、戦っている人間が汚れて見えないのも事実だ」

So why do people fight, anyway?
Perhaps the meaning of existence lies within their will to fight.
People feel a sense of accomplishment through battle.
And itís also a fact that the ones actually fighting are never perceived as being tainted.
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:16   Link #1262
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edit: in short: I pretty much agree with what Deacon Blues said. And I am really interested to see what went down with her and why. And how Dorothy got the job. Imho this whole thing gives her a rather interesting plotline, even though it sounds strange without any further information.

it's really strange how- despite having traits I would normally love, she always makes me squirm
I love stubborn characters. I don't mind idealistic characters. I probably love them too.
It's just that, despite all the good character planning you mention (and that I credit her for, and like I said, with a different portrayal, hell, she would've been at least liked if not among my favourites) - she STILL gets all that admiration. It STILL makes her look like a Mary Sue.
I also disagree, imho she was very happy to get all that attention and recognisation, otherwise we wouldn't have seen such a dead-confident, bossy Relena. Recognizing the danger of her/ Sanc Kingdom's situation just shows she's not naive or stupid. which I also credit her for.

I'm all for stopping the fighting also- that's not a problem I have with her at all. I love some good, smart politics instead of battling it out. She's not a buzzkill to me
But- where does she get her credentials from? How come she is recognized and people listen to her? She has no experience, she is a schoolgirl, an airheaded one on top of that.
The way she got to be Queen of Sanc was ridiculous and I felt like I had been hit with a massive baseball bat of mary sue-ish plot building about that one.
Why, cause her brother thinks he's worthless and she's the only one who can do it? She was just a schoolgirl with very little to no training (or higher education for that matter) her brother is clearly deluded or drunk.
Yet, informed and better equipped, and socially/ politically established people figured it was a good idea to give her a kingdom, despite absolutely ZERO indication she was up for the task. They gave her a butler, and a lady pilot to assist her.
Of course she then established herself and it turned out she was doing an okay job, but the whole story of her getting the job was ridiculous on all levels.
Compared to for example Kihel, it was lame. Kihel just got the job because no one knew it was her, and proved herself that way. It was only Dianna who was potentially being reckless there.

About Lacus (non destiny)- sure she has her flaws, and she bothers me, but at least she had SOME credentials for why she was able to be an influence- she was famous. Plus, no one ever gave her a kingdom or was silly enough to give her direct political power. Sure, she stole a ship, but it's not the same. This isn't a defense of Lacus Just saying.


My point is, Relena wasn't wrong in what she wanted, she just had flaws, and sometimes she was completely uncalled for and out of line- in the way she, a sheltered girl who never saw anything bad up until her father died goes and criticizes people on a pretty personal level and puts herself on a moral high-ground, not attempting to understand potential reasoning behind other's actions, that just seriously bothered me. I thought it was pretty ignorant and I failed to see how she never got criticized for that, she was still perfect, reasonable Relena. It was also strange, seeing how we also saw how she was capable of intelligent observations and didn't misunderstand her situation. But at the same time she was completely ignorant of other's situations.
She should've been called out for these things. She shouldn't have been painted as the only possible solution and received this sick idolization.

Sorry, this just always bothered me And like I said, I don't hate her, she just always felt like wasted potential to me.
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:18   Link #1263
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@Deacon When it comes to Relena's development, we don't got the whole picture, just glimpses. She meets Noin in Episode 11 and we're led to assume she undergoes some sort of princess/world leader boot camp from there. Noin takes her to see Treize at one point and Relena hotheadedly grabs the microphone. From there, we can see she's the same spitfire who fired on Une in Episode 11. There's also the battle in Antarctica. Yep, still as impulsive as ever. After that, we don't see her for awhile and the next time she shows up, she's pretty much already running Sank. I think the girl we see in Episode 1 is very different from the girl we see in Episode 27. She's apologizing to her father for wanting to see Heero in that episode. She's realized that the world won't change to suit her. It's a contrast to the scene from Episode 1 when she's flustered about her father. That was what an ordinary fifteen year old would do. By Episode 27, she's changed from all the political exposure, I assume. However, that's mere conjecture considering we don't see exactly everything Noin showed her. I think she didn't take the political exposure she had with Foreign Minister Darlian all that seriously. In that respect, she's comparable to Fllay. I actually think if Relena hadn't matured that way, she would have gone the route of Fllay in terms of character development.

But yes, I do agree with you that GW isn't that good with characterization. Everyone in the show seemed to have their development on fast forward leaving the viewer to fill in most of the blanks. That's both a blessing and a curse for a show.

As for the terraformation of Mars, it's probable that she just had too much on her plate. People breakdown over work stress all the time. That would be incredibly lame though.

@SkullFaerie Please substantiate your claim that she's airheaded. She seems pretty smart to me even in the early episodes. She talked her way into that hospital in Episode 3. There's nothing about St. Gabriel's hinting she's a bad student. Also, how is she a Mary Sue if she has flaws? That's an oxymoron.
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:37   Link #1264
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@wingzerosnuggles: Airheaded was maybe a bit harsh. I just meant she appears to be a more or less stereotypical popular blonde (brown-ish) high school student at the beginning of the show. She's loved- pretty much idolized by the student body, she's rich, she doesn't appear to be the deepest of wells. That turns out to be not the case, but you wouldn't know it looking at her, her life and her surroundings (despite being brought up by a diplomat. But that doesn't mean much, being the kid of a doctor doesn't make you a surgeon, at least not without proper training).

Well she is not a Mary Sue, but she is constantly portrayed like one in the show. If you look at her, she is flawed, and a potentially awesome character.
But the show chooses to paint her in a light that I didn't find accurate for her character. Like I mentioned before, her being supposedly the perfect solution while everyone else is "tainted" in some way. Giving her a classical Sue frame didn't help. She isn't one, so why did they insist on treating her basically like one? :s

I also agree with the Fllay comparison. I remember when seeing Seed the first time, I thought "THIS is the light in which Relena should've been characterized on GW"- still going down the political route and all, just minus the silly idolization.
If I try to view her like that, she gets massive plus points, because she IS a good character, she just suffered from bad characterization
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:48   Link #1265
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Politics is very different from the medical field. You see people from all walks of life entering government positions. While a lack of experience may be taken against them, that doesn't necessarily mean they will perform poorly. Besides, this is Gundam Wing. It's basically all about wunderkind. Everyone on the show is doing extraordinary things despite their age and background. Looking at the "Sue frame" you speak of, Treize definitely falls into that trap. Look at what FT portrays him as. By your standards, everyone on the show is Sue-ish. You can't fault Relena for being seen as the ultimate solution without dragging everyone else down. You must admit that everyone is portrayed in a far from realistic manner. In a world where everyone who is focused on seems extraordinary, you have to be even more extraordinary to distinguish yourself from the rest of the cast. It's not the best writing but it serves its purpose.

Also, doctors in the AC-verse are atypical. Sally is 19 but already a doctor. I think that's stretching it though. Maybe a field medic? See what I said about wunderkind?
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Old 2010-12-12, 12:58   Link #1266
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@Deacon When it comes to Relena's development, we don't got the whole picture, just glimpses. She meets Noin in Episode 11 and we're led to assume she undergoes some sort of princess/world leader boot camp from there. Noin takes her to see Treize at one point and Relena hotheadedly grabs the microphone. From there, we can see she's the same spitfire who fired on Une in Episode 11. There's also the battle in Antarctica. Yep, still as impulsive as ever. After that, we don't see her for awhile and the next time she shows up, she's pretty much already running Sank. I think the girl we see in Episode 1 is very different from the girl we see in Episode 27.
During episode 16, Relena admitted to Noin that her recklessness runs in the family, after Noin told Relena about Zechs's recklessness. Also, in the episode where Relena lashes out at Romefeller, Noin told Zechs that Relena is "a ball of energy", and has a hard time controlling her.
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Old 2010-12-12, 13:04   Link #1267
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Yep, this also hints that her brother is keeping tabs on her, and is playing some role in her development toward becoming the new ruler of Sank. If anything, she didn't suddenly become educated about all this politics out of nowhere. The show implies that Noin's showing her the ropes. However, Relena's not letting the lessons define who she is. She still applies her own philosophy to what she learns. Also, when she became queen, it was because Romafeller wanted a figurehead. They were expecting her to be a brainless puppet they could play with. However, that certainly wasn't the case. It would be downright stupid if she was utterly clueless after everything that went wrong in Sank. She learned from her mistakes. I don't think that's unrealistic. It's actually comparable to how eighteen year old Queen Victoria didn't let her mother control her when she came of age. If a real life monarch three years older than Relena could pull off a similar feat, I don't see what's wrong with Relena doing the same granted that she had people to teach and guide her. Victoria was raised under the Kensington system, cut off from the world. She managed just fine despite the lack of exposure. She adapted.
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Old 2010-12-12, 13:57   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by wingzerosnuggles View Post
Politics is very different from the medical field. You see people from all walks of life entering government positions. While a lack of experience may be taken against them, that doesn't necessarily mean they will perform poorly. Besides, this is Gundam Wing. It's basically all about wunderkind. Everyone on the show is doing extraordinary things despite their age and background. Looking at the "Sue frame" you speak of, Treize definitely falls into that trap. Look at what FT portrays him as. By your standards, everyone on the show is Sue-ish. You can't fault Relena for being seen as the ultimate solution without dragging everyone else down. You must admit that everyone is portrayed in a far from realistic manner. In a world where everyone who is focused on seems extraordinary, you have to be even more extraordinary to distinguish yourself from the rest of the cast. It's not the best writing but it serves its purpose.

Also, doctors in the AC-verse are atypical. Sally is 19 but already a doctor. I think that's stretching it though. Maybe a field medic? See what I said about wunderkind?
Sure, but politics is all about experience. Of course, like you said, Wing is not realistic and no one is portrayed as such, but still, I found Relena's early (!!) development to be forced. After she got into that position, she gained experience and started growing, but it doesn't explain how she got the job in the first place.
The difference with Treize- at least on the show is, that he's not idolized or painted as the one and only solution to everything.

But I agree, most characters have something like this:
- Quatre's weird family situation, Heero's "superpowers" (also unnecessary, imho. what's wrong with a normal main character? Personally, I'd rather have seen Duo as lead for example.), Sally the doctor, Noin the genius, Zechs the genius (whose issues with himself and his sister seem over the top because she is "so perfect" at times) , Wufei.. well, never mind

I guess in the end, wing just suffered from an bit of bad writing. it had this amazing storyline (which was written well) and these amazing characters (which were created well), that there wasn't enough left for proper actual characterization (which was more often than not blah).
You're right, it's not a problem universal to Relena, it bugged me also on Zechs (despite being my favourite), and the others a lot, but somehow Relena manages to stand out, because of being favoured so much. Not her fault though,poor girl.


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It's actually comparable to how eighteen year old Queen Victoria didn't let her mother control her when she came of age. If a real life monarch three years older than Relena could pull off a similar feat, I don't see what's wrong with Relena doing the same
I wouldn't really make that comparison, Victoria lived in a very different society and had a different life expectancy and all. I'm pretty sure girls still gave birth really early at that time too Relena's a modern (though rich) teenager and is better compared to those, imho.
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Old 2010-12-12, 13:59   Link #1269
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@wingzerosnuggles: Airheaded was maybe a bit harsh. I just meant she appears to be a more or less stereotypical popular blonde (brown-ish) high school student at the beginning of the show. She's loved- pretty much idolized by the student body, she's rich, she doesn't appear to be the deepest of wells. That turns out to be not the case, but you wouldn't know it looking at her, her life and her surroundings (despite being brought up by a diplomat. But that doesn't mean much, being the kid of a doctor doesn't make you a surgeon, at least nhttp://forums.animesuki.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3388175ot without proper training).

Well she is not a Mary Sue, but she is constantly portrayed like one in the show. If you look at her, she is flawed, and a potentially awesome character.
But the show chooses to paint her in a light that I didn't find accurate for her character. Like I mentioned before, her being supposedly the perfect solution while everyone else is "tainted" in some way. Giving her a classical Sue frame didn't help. She isn't one, so why did they insist on treating her basically like one? :s

I also agree with the Fllay comparison. I remember when seeing Seed the first time, I thought "THIS is the light in which Relena should've been characterized on GW"- still going down the political route and all, just minus the silly idolization.
If I try to view her like that, she gets massive plus points, because she IS a good character, she just suffered from bad characterization
But Relena wasn't the perfect solution in the show though. For all the peace overtures she made after resurrecting Sanc and becoming Queen of the world and the great number of support she gained during that time, ultimately, there was absolutely nothing she could when the White Fang began their revolution. If anyone was a "solution", I'd say it was three-way tie between Treize, Zechs and Heero. Not to say Relena's previous actions were in vain, just her impact had a cap.

Everyone in GW was flawed and Relena certainly was too; even with her immense growth during the show.

Her friends idolized her and various people she met during the show certainly admired her for her passionate beliefs and. Her calls for peace during her time as Queen were bound to be accepted by the public and her charisma and eloquence didn't hurt either. Still, I don't think there was much idolization going on.
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Old 2010-12-12, 14:02   Link #1270
wingzerosnuggles
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The comparison to Victoria is justified considering how Wing seems to be a cross between the 90's and ye olden times. Just look at how OZ and members of Romafeller dress.

EDIT: Anyway, if you're hell-bent on "not caring for Relena," all the reasoning we bring forward is most probably not going to change your mind. Not to be offensive but I don't think we should continue to pursue this avenue of conversation unless it will actually lead somewhere with regard to changing some of your thoughts on the character. Otherwise, it's like we're talking to a brick wall, and this is just a pointless exercise. If you're not going to change your mind, the last thing I want to do is seem like I'm forcing you to do so.

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Old 2010-12-12, 15:23   Link #1271
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@ wingzerosnuggles: but who said that I'm hell-bent on anything? :s I'd love to change my mind about her, seeing as she has the basic traits of characters I usually love, I'm just saying what bothers me and why. And like I said, the problem I have with her lies mostly in her characterization on the show, not explicitly with her herself.
Sure, I have my issues with some things she did, but my biggest lament is just that the show itself lacks character development, and Relena, imho suffers among, if not THE most from it. it might be an issue of the time GW was made also though.

About Victoria: the dress and probably parts of society yes, but their medical care/technology, education, social interaction and upbringing not. It's not like Turn A, where earth society actually regressed. I see where you're coming from, but the comparison is not that good- I'm trying to think of a more modern example. Young, influential actresses maybe, due to a lack of princesses nowadays.

@ Elo the Blue: I know. I agree completely! To me, Treize&Co. were always the influential ones, but somehow, it seemed to me that someone in the staff was a die-hard Relena fangirl and desperately tried to overshadow that with disproportional Relena- love. Like trying too hard. And THAT'S my main gripe right there. Everything else related to her is fine. Annoying sometimes, out of line sometimes, but fine.
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Old 2010-12-12, 15:43   Link #1272
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Her friends idolized her and various people she met during the show certainly admired her for her passionate beliefs and. Her calls for peace during her time as Queen were bound to be accepted by the public and her charisma and eloquence didn't hurt either. Still, I don't think there was much idolization going on.
in blind target some colony people have viwed her as a hypocrite and going as far as saying that she intended to use the colonies resourses for earths ends and that her way for peace was a lie, however relena insisted that she is was still learning and was attempting to bring a perfect understanding and order on to both the earth and colonies. and she went on saying that she wants bring them all into an era where they can all focus that attention and resolve it diplomatically.

she gained a lot of credit and appeal because she had honestly stayed true to her words and lets face not many politics fiction or real are well know for haveing a 'true to my word' streak. and to be vice forign minister at the age of 15 is something.
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Old 2010-12-12, 16:07   Link #1273
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Breathe guys If I might add my two cents, SkullFaerie has a point. It is ridiculous how people in the series are treating Relena and I can totally understand the statement of her resembling a Mary Sue. Her portrayal is not her fault though, it's caused by others. They make her out to be the best thing that has ever graced Earth; Relena herself is quite humble.

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But- where does she get her credentials from? How come she is recognized and people listen to her? She has no experience, she is a schoolgirl, an airheaded one on top of that. [...]

About Lacus (non destiny)- sure she has her flaws, and she bothers me, but at least she had SOME credentials for why she was able to be an influence- she was famous. Plus, no one ever gave her a kingdom or was silly enough to give her direct political power.
Actually, Relena has some credentials. It's her name. Or rather, her legacy. She is a Peacecraft, the synonym for peace, freedom, equality, justice, hope, ...bla. Her father was a badass pacifist who, together with Heero Yuy, was able to convince most of the universe to stop fighting and follow total pacifism. They were such important figures to peace that with them gone, the world was plunged back into chaos and wars again. But instead of the people trying to do something themselves for a change (which they finally do in EW) they caught wind of Relena Peacecraft's existence and more or less shoved her onto the pedestal she has been since in the series and expected her to bring about peace for them.
Okay, I can't blame poor fruit vendors for not setting out on a peace crusade but what about the politicians? What about the influential people? That's what really gets me about the Romefeller folks. Marquis Weridge obviously had a pacifistic mindset but he needed a schoolgirl to join Romefeller to be able to voice his opinions? Same goes for the rest. No one dared speak out to Dermail before but as soon as Relena joined suddenly everyone had an opinion. wtf. They're like five times her age, yet, as Weridge admits, she pwns them all in the guts department.

In that sense it's not far-fetched to think that the ones responsible for instating her as Cinq's leader weren't thinking that they were handing the job to a 15-year-old girl but King Peacecraft's daughter, Earth's Heero Yuy. 'Screw age, she's a Peacecraft'. They were hoping she'd do the same thing as her father and bring about peace. No, scratch that, they were expecting her to do so.

And the sad part? Everyone did that. Zechs, Noin, Treize, Quatre, Heero, every freaking person in the Earth Sphere. The people were all at each other's throats and Relena gets tasked to bring about peace in a pacifistic way. And as Quatre, a Gundam pilot, reminds her in episode 33, she's apparently the only who can do that. Talk about pressure.

In that sense it's understandable that Relena comes off as a Mary Sue. It's what the people expected. She was supposed to put herself on a moral high-ground and go criticize everyone and everything that was affiliated with war. Peacecraft and all. But she admits herself that she has no idea what total pacifism is. Still, as a leader she couldn't allow herself to waver or even show the slightest insecurities. People were believing in her after all and she didn't want to let anyone down.
That is why I think she's badass. She was torn out of her peaceful life, thrown into the turmoils of war, put under HUGE pressure by everyone and not even given time to rest... and she delivered. She pulled it off while staying true to her personal ideals. Not the Peacecraft stuff, mind you. And that is the reason I really adore her character. To me, she's a Mary Sue done right
Though admittedly, by the end of the series everyone important was working together toward peace, she didn't solo things. And by the end of EW the rest of humanity got the message, too.

I'm really annoyed about that rest of the world, though. And I bet Relena was, too. That must've been the reason she went back to being a Darlian in EW. She didn't want to be seen as King Peacecraft's daughter, she wanted to be herself. 'I didn't go back to being a Darlian to avenge my father.' I was just tired of all the crap you were lumping on me. lol
It's admirable that she still wants to help with maintaining peace, that's why she's taking her job as VFM so seriously. But she wants do it her own way, not how people are expecting her to. At least that's what I think. Feel free to argue with that.

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But yes, I do agree with you that GW isn't that good with characterization. Everyone in the show seemed to have their development on fast forward leaving the viewer to fill in most of the blanks. That's both a blessing and a curse for a show.
Truer words have never been spoken.

Last edited by IkuzeMinna; 2010-12-12 at 16:17.
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Old 2010-12-12, 16:32   Link #1274
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@ Elo the Blue: I know. I agree completely! To me, Treize&Co. were always the influential ones, but somehow, it seemed to me that someone in the staff was a die-hard Relena fangirl and desperately tried to overshadow that with disproportional Relena- love. Like trying too hard. And THAT'S my main gripe right there. Everything else related to her is fine. Annoying sometimes, out of line sometimes, but fine.
I disagree. While Heero, Zechs and Treize ultimately made the biggest difference in the series, when you analyze GW's characters, the only individuals fit to even carry the show for long stretches were Heero and Relena. As much as I'm a fan of three of them, none of the four supporting Gundam pilots were capable of that. The direct and no-nonsense nature of Zechs in combat is juxtaposed perfectly by the uncertainty of his life outside of it, making him unfit to carry the show. And the various stretches where Treize wasn't shown only serve to prove just how good puppeteer he was.

With Heero and Relena, they embody all the best qualities of GW with their development as people, involvement in the wars, political activism(or disinterest) and youths being able to change the times. Every show has to have it's stars and you'e entitled to believe GW's writers went out of their way to make Relena one. Personally, I think they created and developed her character very well. Are there plot-holes? Of course. But that's to be expected with a 90s series.

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in blind target some colony people have viwed her as a hypocrite and going as far as saying that she intended to use the colonies resourses for earths ends and that her way for peace was a lie, however relena insisted that she is was still learning and was attempting to bring a perfect understanding and order on to both the earth and colonies. and she went on saying that she wants bring them all into an era where they can all focus that attention and resolve it diplomatically.

she gained a lot of credit and appeal because she had honestly stayed true to her words and lets face not many politics fiction or real are well know for haveing a 'true to my word' streak. and to be vice forign minister at the age of 15 is something.
You're right; I had forgotten about Blind Target. Even though the group Ralph Kurt was involved with were radicals, they are further proof Relena was not universally loved.
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Old 2010-12-12, 18:11   Link #1275
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@IkuzeMinna: thank you v.v

It's true, she does have her name/family heritage. And I fully agree with the rest you said too. For me personally, I would've wished she had been portrayed that way in the show too. But I guess this can be partially put down to it being a 90s show- shows of the time did like their pretty princesses who are loved (at least by the main cast. I recognize not the whole world was a Relena follower
though it's not an excuse, there are well developed characters from that period. Just look at Macross, maybe.

Maybe the problem is that today, more than ever overly idolized characters aren't acceptable/satisfying anymore- I could point at Sheryl and Ranka, the latter of which we were meant to like, but many didn't. This is kind of what happened to me with Relena, when I was watching GW.

I need to say though, by EW she was a lot better, and more likeable. Maybe because she had shed the Peacecraft name, and dropped her family's ideology, which she didn't get (which was also a bit idealized. Noble sure, but effective?!)
Another thing I appreciated was her allowing Noin to establish a force in Sanc early on. It shows she was realistic- but I'm not sure, it's been a while, was she claiming total pacifism at the time?


@Elo the Blue I also forgot about Blind Target. Forgive me, it's been a while It's true, the public didn't all love her- I thought only about the main cast.
Zechs- agreed.
Heero- well, here's the thing, correct me if I remember wrong, but he's a terrorist, technically. So it's a bit ughhh how this doesn't really become an issue. Goes for all five pilots.
it's admirable though, how Relena chooses to trust him, despite that. Plus for her.

I guess for such an important character, I would've liked a better portrayal. I'm buying all of her development - minus how the cast sees her. It's the only thing that really bothers me (It's like Sailor Moon! haha! she always bugged me too when I was a kid, it's like everyone has to take a backseat to her)

A problem of old shows, I guess
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Old 2010-12-12, 18:31   Link #1276
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Originally Posted by SkullFaerie View Post
@Elo the Blue I also forgot about Blind Target. Forgive me, it's been a while It's true, the public didn't all love her- I thought only about the main cast.
Zechs- agreed.
Heero- well, here's the thing, correct me if I remember wrong, but he's a terrorist, technically. So it's a bit ughhh how this doesn't really become an issue. Goes for all five pilots.
it's admirable though, how Relena chooses to trust him, despite that. Plus for her.

I guess for such an important character, I would've liked a better portrayal. I'm buying all of her development - minus how the cast sees her. It's the only thing that really bothers me (It's like Sailor Moon! haha! she always bugged me too when I was a kid, it's like everyone has to take a backseat to her)

A problem of old shows, I guess
Yes, Heero is a terrorist and within the AC universe, the general public was against him and his fellow pilots until EW. But from a viewer's perspective, it's his and Relena's show and despite the hundreds of people he killed, he's still viewed as a hero by most fans(common in the Gundam franchise).

You're bothered by how the cast sees her? I just don't get it...

If most of the cast hadn't taken a backseat to her, it would have been someone else. Despite her central role though, she's definitely no Mary Sue.
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Old 2010-12-12, 18:42   Link #1277
wingzerosnuggles
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@SkullFaerie Majority of the fandom is adamant when it comes to their viewpoint on Relena so you can understand my skepticism.

As for a closer real life equivalent in connection to IkuzeMinna's post, there's Anna Anderson. She was an Anastasia impostor. Not saying she's like Relena but the situation wherein one's name is the reason for one's power applies here. Looking at how the public rallied around her, you can see the expectations and power that come with a certain name work. The same goes for Relena being a Peacecraft.

And of course she was at the forefront. She's the show's lead female. Name one lead female who hasn't been at the forefront and showered with attention by the rest of the cast. Well, there is Marina but that was bad writing and her status as 00's lead female is debatable...
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Old 2010-12-12, 21:08   Link #1278
Long Live
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I don't think I have the right to butt in this Relena debate but it'll probably help if you guys hear what a newcomer has to say.
Before I start though, to Relena fans, I only have two words for you peeps: DROP IT.

Really boys and girls, I feel bad for you's because no matter how awesome Relena REALLY is, some fans will always disagree with you and insist she was poorly written. But if it's any consolation, I, too, believe she truly is an awesome character. And no I am not siding with anyone here, I'm just gonna voice out how I saw her too.

I don't get someone's claim here saying she was idolized by all the other characters. Despite having just recently seen GW, I will 100% stand for this: NOT ONE OF THE CAST IDOLIZED HER. Sure, MOST were proud of her but ALL of them disagreed with her and her ideals by varying degrees and I don't want to elaborate on that.

What struck me the most though is saying the Relena creators were obsessed with her and thus put her on the spotlight all the time. No matter how many times I thought that through, it wouldn't sink in and therefore I can only say one thing. BULLSHIT. I thought all the characters were given equal attention by the creators and that's probably why I never got pissed at any of them, and no I'm not kissing GW fans's asses here. The thing is she's the lead female and it's natural to put her at the center stage more often than the other ladies. I think she deserved every moment she was put in the spotlight because she wasn't put there to show off how flawless she was but rather how realistic she was. That's what makes her different from Lacus Clyne I think. I never liked Lacus Clyne or the vulnerable Marina Ismail. I thought they were utter useless. The difference between them though is that Lacus was always put in the spotlight, good thing Marina wasn't so I wasn't that pissed at her. So if there's anyone who has committed the favoritism crime, it's the S/SD creators.

Lastly, Relena loving all the attention. WTF. I don't know where the hell that came from. I agree with one of the posters, if there was anyone who didn't trust her, it was herself. And she hated the fact that some people actually overestimated her and her ideals. Although the part where she was portrayed as a goody-goody, I agree with that. But she didn't start as a goody-goody I think. She started as a rebellious brat and when she matured, that was when she became a goody-goody.

So back to what I was saying: DROP IT. Guys, drop it, you're wasting effort defending Relena because you can never make intentionally-blind people see nor can you make intentionally-deaf people hear. No matter how hard y'all try, haters will convince themselves she sucks.

Right. So I'm abandoning this thread as I can see haters will soon populate it and spoil it. Shhiiiitttt. Good luck, people! PEACE OUT
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Old 2010-12-12, 22:38   Link #1279
wingzerosnuggles
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Meh...haters come and go. This is the interwebz. xD They're quite unavoidable actually considering the nature of this fandom.

Anyway, agreed on all points. It was around four in the morning on my side of the world when I was typing my shiz. Oh well, brain short circuit. You shall be missed. Return if and when you please. A good brain to pick is always welcome.

Moving on, weren't we discussing capsule prototypes? I have a copy of this:
http://www.amazon.com/Gundam-Technic.../dp/1931514992

Sadly, I left it at home. -_- I think it had a sketch of Une's capsule in it. Anyone else have a copy to confirm or deny?
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Old 2010-12-12, 22:59   Link #1280
MichaelKnight
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The land down under.
Well considering Iím the biggest Relena fangirl here, I canít help but get annoyed and now I donít care anymore if I come out as a total douche.

First of all, no one ever said that ALL those who hate her, hate her ONLY because theyíre jealous. Donít be defensive, you came up with that on your own.

And before I make this all bloody long and unbearable, I disagree with those who say Wing and its characters arenít realistic. They are realistic and I can support that claim, but I donít intend on doing that now.

Relena and her wishing Zechs get killed. Uncalled for?

No.

When VFM Darlian died, some of his last words to her were that she must watch out for OZ. She then gets rescued by Doctor J, who btw, mentions that Heero was after OZ. She then learns that this Zechs person is a Peacecraft hero and yet ALSO an OZ soldier. She was at her vengeful stage, which was understandable Ė she did bloody witness her father get killed. So she thinks Heero is her ally because she thinks that the enemy of her enemy is her friend, and this Zechs guy, who is from OZ, is an enemy. It shouldnít be surprising that she would wish him dead and side with Heero. She didnít know he was her brother. I find that whole situation realistic and understandable. That was her childish and rebellious stage, she was meant to act that way.

Relena isnít badass for no reason, either. And I donít think I need to elaborate on that.

Quote:
She was very happy to get all that attention and recognisation, otherwise we wouldn't have seen such a dead-confident, bossy Relena.
In your humble opinion? Iím sorry. But that is not a humble opinion. AT ALL. *eyeroll*

She was anything but bloody confident and bossy. Maybe cite a certain scene as an example and justify how she was confident/bossy there? I'm pretty sure that statement of yours implies to the already-changed Relena. Correct me if I'm wrong.

She was stubborn, yes, but those two words arenít for her. I donít know how you can justify that, at least in a way that I will agree.

-

Please take back what you said, Relena is NOT an airhead. Both in the first and second half of Wing. I donít know how some people never noticed how easily she can deduce things. Sheís intelligent, in fact. Just a bit too naive and idealistic.

Quote:
I failed to see how she never got criticized for that, she was still perfect, reasonable Relena.
I agree with you, YOU FAILED INDEED. Relena got criticised for different reasons and most of the criticisms even came from Heero.

-

Look. I know I sound like an ass but I donít think you really understood her character development. You say that you recognise her character development but I canít help but feel that you only say that to make your criticisms valid. None of your criticisms sounded right TO ME. Then again, who the fuck am I. Oh, and lastly, while you say you donít hate her, I think you need to re-evaluate yourself. You sound like you DO hate her. Again, TO ME.

I wish that you consider everything that us Relena fans are saying. Especially those that Snuggles and Elo said. Most especially the part where Relena disappears for a few episodes and comes back completely different. [I like how the Noin-camp thing didn't have to come from me. ]

IMO, Relena is both well-planned and well-written. The latter, of course, is more debatable simply because of how fast-paced Wing was written. Anyway like Long Live and Snuggles said, itís impossible to make you realise what weíre trying to say. So I wouldn't be surprised if everything that I said still won't kick in. But for my Relena, I don't care if it's a waste of time and effort. I'll say it and I won't give a damn whether I sound like a sore loser or not.

*deep breaths*

I'm DONE.

*walks off*
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Last edited by MichaelKnight; 2010-12-12 at 23:11. Reason: Grammar/spelling issues
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