AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-12-13, 18:30   Link #81
Dragonar Fan
HI-RISE BOMBEERRR!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Elpis Colony, Jaburo, The hanger, Texas, Alkard
Age: 23
Thats my sister for ya
__________________
Dragonar Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-13, 18:34   Link #82
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
From where I live, Tsundere is a very rare thing to find. But that is just from my perspective
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-13, 20:10   Link #83
Nintendo Maniac 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
I don't know if it's because I'm one myself which somehow causes them to stay away from me, but it seems like there aren't any around where I am either.

However there seems to be a ton of "type B" tsunderes - heck my Mom, Dad, and sister are ones. (this makes me the outcast with my "type A" and general kuudere-ness as well...)


If you have no idea what I mean by "type A" and "type B", see:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere
__________________
AnimeSuki's resident straight male kuutsundere.
(that's a kuudere-tsundere hybrid; from left to right is the outermost layer to the innermost)
Nintendo Maniac 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-14, 03:08   Link #84
mechdra
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Tsundere do exist and it is kinda cute when they are young but it kind of get annoying when they turn old.

However, it depends on what type of tsundere as well. Those that resemblem Kagami exist and can be found in most girls but those type like Taiga, Nagi, Loise, and Shana are rare and tends to be annoying.
mechdra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-14, 03:16   Link #85
Nintendo Maniac 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Ha, so I'm NOT the only one that doesn't like the loli-tsundere!

(interestingly enough the english dub of Shana instantly removes much of the loli vibe due to her non-loli-sounding VA, which end up making Shana no longer annoying)
__________________
AnimeSuki's resident straight male kuutsundere.
(that's a kuudere-tsundere hybrid; from left to right is the outermost layer to the innermost)
Nintendo Maniac 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-14, 03:55   Link #86
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
What if a girl is generally dere but can be tsun when provoked? I have some experience with this one in real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post
Ha, so I'm NOT the only one that doesn't like the loli-tsundere!

(interestingly enough the english dub of Shana instantly removes much of the loli vibe due to her non-loli-sounding VA, which end up making Shana no longer annoying)
I'm fine with either high pitched voices (hey, I like all the K-On! OPs) or tsun, but I'm not fond of them combined. That being said, I actually like Taiga and Shana, I just prefer characters like Rin/Hitagi/Tsugumi (the Ever 17 character, for those wondering "which" Tsugumi).
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-14, 04:04   Link #87
Nintendo Maniac 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Oh, I completely forgot about Tsugumi as an example of the more aloof non-loli tsundere. *goes and adds that*

As for everything else, it would seem we think alike. Everything you said could have came out of my mouth and there wouldn't have been a single lie.
__________________
AnimeSuki's resident straight male kuutsundere.
(that's a kuudere-tsundere hybrid; from left to right is the outermost layer to the innermost)
Nintendo Maniac 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 11:21   Link #88
Salt
the cynic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 32
Don't know if it has already been posted.

I recommend we standardize on TVtropes definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

__________________
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 13:25   Link #89
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Don't know if it has already been posted.

I recommend we standardize on TVtropes definition:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

Its not a *terrible* definition... but lets not be assigning tvtropes any sort of authority or completeness (any more than we would any other wiki made by the ravening mob ). You're taking a '2-d' fictional personality short summary and assigning to complex '3-d' real personalities so some flexibility is necessary. The only disappointing thing I've seen so far is the simplistic mapping by some onto a real life "bitch mode" (to use their vulgarity), ignoring the other features of tsundere.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 15:04   Link #90
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
Yeah, I'd be careful about using TVtropes as an authority for terms like these, their definition of tsundere is actually pretty well done, but some others aren't - their page on moe, for example, pretty much perpetuates every stereotype about the concept that I dispute.

(I like to run definitions and explanations of moe through what I call the "Matsuri test". Basically, I ask myself whether Sola's Matsuri Shihou meets the bulk of the description. Passing this test if not very common despite the fact that Matsuri is often considered very moe.)

I like the fact that they discuss the different kinds of "tsun" and "dere" a character may exhibit. I also like the fact they note that characters often transition from type A to type B when they become more comfortable with their love interest. There are, however, a few flaws:
-The implication that a defrosting ice queen is not a tsundere. I'm not aware of any precedent for this.
-It implies that its moe for a tsundere to blush and make suspiciously specific denials... and then links TV tropes definition of moe. The reason this kind of behaviour from a tsundere is moe is because it evokes a warm "awww, she really cares (even though she's denying it)" in the viewer, rather than most of the stuff mentioned in that article. Granted, this is a problem with the moe article more than the tsundere one.

I also think that the article misses a couple interesting things about tsunderes, like the fact that if a type A tsundere is the lead girl in a romantic comedy, she'll usually have girl without a tsun side (possibly a yamato nadeshiko) as a rival specifically to highlight her personality. But those aren't really necessary to a basic definition, just interesting observations.
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 15:18   Link #91
Salt
the cynic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its not a *terrible* definition... but lets not be assigning tvtropes any sort of authority or completeness (any more than we would any other wiki made by the ravening mob ). You're taking a '2-d' fictional personality short summary and assigning to complex '3-d' real personalities so some flexibility is necessary. The only disappointing thing I've seen so far is the simplistic mapping by some onto a real life "bitch mode" (to use their vulgarity), ignoring the other features of tsundere.
Meaning of terms change over time, with no absolute "correct" definition.

TVtrope is definitely not "complete", one should treat it as a bare-bones concise description of what certain terms generally means today.

Despite all that, I figured the discussion will be better if everyone is on the "same page".

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Yeah, I'd be careful about using TVtropes as an authority for terms like these, their definition of tsundere is actually pretty well done, but some others aren't - their page on moe, for example, pretty much perpetuates every stereotype about the concept that I dispute.

(I like to run definitions and explanations of moe through what I call the "Matsuri test". Basically, I ask myself whether Sola's Matsuri Shihou meets the bulk of the description. Passing this test if not very common despite the fact that Matsuri is often considered very moe.)

I like the fact that they discuss the different kinds of "tsun" and "dere" a character may exhibit. I also like the fact they note that characters often transition from type A to type B when they become more comfortable with their love interest. There are, however, a few flaws:
-The implication that a defrosting ice queen is not a tsundere. I'm not aware of any precedent for this.
-It implies that its moe for a tsundere to blush and make suspiciously specific denials... and then links TV tropes definition of moe. The reason this kind of behaviour from a tsundere is moe is because it evokes a warm "awww, she really cares (even though she's denying it)" in the viewer, rather than most of the stuff mentioned in that article. Granted, this is a problem with the moe article more than the tsundere one.

I also think that the article misses a couple interesting things about tsunderes, like the fact that if a type A tsundere is the lead girl in a romantic comedy, she'll usually have girl without a tsun side (possibly a yamato nadeshiko) as a rival specifically to highlight her personality. But those aren't really necessary to a basic definition, just interesting observations.
Over time, it appears Ice Queens with a deredere side have been "forked" out of the definition and give it's know term "kuudere", as noted in the article.

Tsundere and Moe aren't mutual exclusive BTW.
__________________
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 15:45   Link #92
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
0utf0xZer0 is pretty up-to-speed on moe and tsundere, I think he knows that. He was noting that the 'moe' description in tvtropes is, politely, a mess and misleading. It is unfortunate the 'tsundere' descriptions invoking 'moe' link to it.

And yeah, I don't dispute the 'tsundere' entry isn't a good read for anyone before they start throwing terms around or wonder what "type a" means. I just see people sometimes quoting it as some unassailable source when it sometimes is as bad as the "Urban Dictionary" in missing the mark. I put a "credibility value" on all information... some sites rank better than others. It isn't unusual to encounter people who put '100%' on all sites la la la

(and yes, XKCD is full of win and has high credibility value )
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 16:41   Link #93
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Over time, it appears Ice Queens with a deredere side have been "forked" out of the definition and give it's know term "kuudere", as noted in the article.
I have issues with TVtropes' definition of Kuudere as well, namely that they consider it a sub-type or spin-off of the tsundere. A kuudere may or may not also be a tsundere.

A tsundere may act "cold" towards people, but she does so intentionally - Hitagi from Bakemonogatari is a good example. Many kuuderes act cold towards people unintentionally: see Rei (Evangelion), Yuki (Haruhi) and Sakaki (Azumanga Diaoh).

Second, characters that employ a cold shoulder approach are generally considered tsunderes. So characters that are intentionally "kuu" like Hitagi are both tsundere and kuudere. Quite a few people, myself included, prefer to classify her as a tsundere.

Whoever wrote the Tvtropes article makes the mistake of thinking the terms tsundere, kuudere, and defrosting ice queen are distinct in modern usage - in practice, their usage overlaps. The term tsundere is still used to refer to characters that are defrosting ice queens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Tsundere and Moe aren't mutual exclusive BTW.
Yeah, but the thing is, TVtropes moe page pretty much sets you on the wrong track if you're looking for common tsundere moe traits. If I had to define what makes tsunderes moe, I'd stress three things:
-They really do care. (As noted, the denial often merely gives it away)
-They're often easy to tease. (Which is endearing to many.)
-In more emotionally mature cases, they're often playful and teasing themselves (Again, Hitagi is a great example).

In the case of tsundere who are also kuudere, the fact she's cold most of the time just makes her emotional moments warmer as well.
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 16:44   Link #94
Salt
the cynic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
0utf0xZer0 is pretty up-to-speed on moe and tsundere, I think he knows that. He was noting that the 'moe' description in tvtropes is, politely, a mess and misleading. It is unfortunate the 'tsundere' descriptions invoking 'moe' link to it.

And yeah, I don't dispute the 'tsundere' entry isn't a good read for anyone before they start throwing terms around or wonder what "type a" means. I just see people sometimes quoting it as some unassailable source when it sometimes is as bad as the "Urban Dictionary" in missing the mark. I put a "credibility value" on all information... some sites rank better than others. It isn't unusual to encounter people who put '100%' on all sites la la la

(and yes, XKCD is full of win and has high credibility value )
I posted it because it seem some people earlier in the thread was wonder what it meant, and everyone seem to have a somewhat different definition for the term.

Figured it would be better to nail it down to one (general) definition.

Variations can be taken care of by "types" or just qualifying it, or are already out right forked out to a separate term (which is probably hiding somewhere on TVtropes LOL).

Discussions sometimes starting going in circles when one person is speaking about apples and the other oranges, and both don't realise it.
__________________
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 17:08   Link #95
Hooves
♣~Sleepy~♣
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 20
Send a message via Skype™ to Hooves
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I have issues with TVtropes' definition of Kuudere as well, namely that they consider it a sub-type or spin-off of the tsundere. A kuudere may or may not also be a tsundere.

A tsundere may act "cold" towards people, but she does so intentionally - Hitagi from Bakemonogatari is a good example. Many kuuderes act cold towards people unintentionally: see Rei (Evangelion), Yuki (Haruhi) and Sakaki (Azumanga Diaoh).

Second, characters that employ a cold shoulder approach are generally considered tsunderes. So characters that are intentionally "kuu" like Hitagi are both tsundere and kuudere. Quite a few people, myself included, prefer to classify her as a tsundere.

Whoever wrote the Tvtropes article makes the mistake of thinking the terms tsundere, kuudere, and defrosting ice queen are distinct in modern usage - in practice, their usage overlaps. The term tsundere is still used to refer to characters that are defrosting ice queens.
Well.... That is quite a hard way to tell the difference between Kuuderes and Tsunderes Confused me a little to tell the difference..
__________________
MyAnimeList (Hoovesahoy)
Avatar from: Hooves
Signature from: Patchy
Hooves is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 18:16   Link #96
Nintendo Maniac 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Kuudere and Tsundere can overlap somewhat, creating the "kuutsundere" as I like to call it when both are distinctly present. Tsugumi from Ever17 is an example of this.

In a way the kuudere is just a non-aggressive tsundere.
__________________
AnimeSuki's resident straight male kuutsundere.
(that's a kuudere-tsundere hybrid; from left to right is the outermost layer to the innermost)

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64; 2010-12-15 at 19:23.
Nintendo Maniac 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 19:16   Link #97
Salt
the cynic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 32
I have no idea how I missed your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I have issues with TVtropes' definition of Kuudere as well, namely that they consider it a sub-type or spin-off of the tsundere. A kuudere may or may not also be a tsundere.

A tsundere may act "cold" towards people, but she does so intentionally - Hitagi from Bakemonogatari is a good example. Many kuuderes act cold towards people unintentionally: see Rei (Evangelion), Yuki (Haruhi) and Sakaki (Azumanga Diaoh).

Second, characters that employ a cold shoulder approach are generally considered tsunderes. So characters that are intentionally "kuu" like Hitagi are both tsundere and kuudere. Quite a few people, myself included, prefer to classify her as a tsundere.

Whoever wrote the Tvtropes article makes the mistake of thinking the terms tsundere, kuudere, and defrosting ice queen are distinct in modern usage - in practice, their usage overlaps. The term tsundere is still used to refer to characters that are defrosting ice queens.
Yes they do have overlapping characteristics, but IMO they are distinct enough to have their own terms.

Tsundere -
While sweet and nice on the inside, normally keeps a aggressive, hash, and sometimes comically violent exterior as a sort of coping mechanism for feelings they not quite sure how to deal with.
Type B is a special case of the Tsundere, where the feelings that Tsundere can't cope with is coming only from one person, normally the love interest. Hence she/he appears nice to everyone except the love interest.

Kuudere -
Similar to Tsundere, but with a different coping mechanism. Instead of being aggressive and actively abusive, the Kuudere puts up a cold, apathetic, uncaring, aloaf front.

(defrosting) Ice Queen -
Unlike the Kuudere, the cold hash exterior isn't a facade. Inside they really are bitter and broken people that have lost all empathy for the rest of the human race, but they can be defrosted over time and become friendlier person over the course of the story.

Another difference between Tsundere and Kuudere is the way they react when angered.
  • Tsundere will go into a "fire all missiles" mode against the target of her anger.
  • Kuudere will normally just shoot a snark, pointed remark that pieces the target's heart like an icicle.

Then there is their reaction when flustered, like when it comes to romance.
  • Tsundere will over-react and angrily deny anything of the sort.
  • Kuudere will just coldly call you an idiot and just walk away.

Of course, these archetypes are not all encompassing, there will be characters that have a mix of the above characteristics and don't strictly fit into either catergory, but are not common enough to be a named archetype.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Well.... That is quite a hard way to tell the difference between Kuuderes and Tsunderes Confused me a little to tell the difference..
See above.

If you want examples there is Code Geass for reference, where you can see the two types interact,

C.C - Kuudere
Kallen - Tsundere

__________________
De gustibus non est disputandum.

Last edited by Salt; 2010-12-15 at 19:54.
Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 19:24   Link #98
Nintendo Maniac 64
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
I think you need to do some typo correction there - it's kuudere, not fuudere. :P
__________________
AnimeSuki's resident straight male kuutsundere.
(that's a kuudere-tsundere hybrid; from left to right is the outermost layer to the innermost)
Nintendo Maniac 64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-15, 19:57   Link #99
Salt
the cynic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post
I think you need to do some typo correction there - it's kuudere, not fuudere. :P
Ah #$%^ !!

Thanks. ><

Cosmic rays must have flipped a bit or two in my brain.

I think I should get more rest.
__________________
De gustibus non est disputandum.
Salt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-12-16, 03:47   Link #100
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
I hate to say this because you're arguing pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.

TV tropes describes the word "tsundere" as a merger of "aloof or irritable" and lovestruck. Kuudere, on the other hand, is a merger of cool and lovestruck. Not cold, just cool.

Does Sakaki have a "cold" exterior? No, people just assign her a "cool" image. Same with Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. (Although in that case, the image is only part cool - it's also "scary loner girl".)

And the idea that "kuu" means "cool" isn't just something I came up with: take a look at how this poster defines the difference between "kuudere" and the little used term "dandere", for instance. The "cool" factor is front and center:
http://bangin.wordpress.com/2008/04/...%83%ACdandere/

I consider any behaviour that could qualify as "abrasive" tsun, so to me intentionally acting cold to someone is a kind of tsun, and characters that do this are better described as a tsundere or tsundere-kuudere hybrid, not pure kuudere.

The defrosting ice queen/tsundere distinction you make is useful, the issue is that defrosting ice queen is a TVtropes term, not anime fan slang. Many anime fans would use tsundere simply because they don't know or don't care about the other term.
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.