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Old 2010-12-15, 22:50   Link #19801
TTR
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That's Gaap-Beatrice though. Something happens in EP4 that doesn't happen in EP7 Claire Stories. The penetrating heel-kick. This is a fact that, so far, hasn't been brought up in the Claire Stories. Isn't that enough evidence that Gaap-Beatrice and true Gaap aren't the same deal? I think that while Gaap-Beatrice was just Yasutrice's imagination, true Gaap may be a representation of a person.
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Old 2010-12-15, 22:50   Link #19802
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm guessing you haven't read the patch or anything. Gaap is, in her entirety, absolutely imaginary, not based on any humans.
No, actually I have read both the patch and the entire seventh episode raw before that. I'm totally aware that this is how episode 7 *presents* Gaap-Beatrice.

I'm suggesting that what we are told by Yasu is not necessarily the whole story. I agree, it probably makes more sense to take Yasu's tale at face value, but we know all about how reliable narrators can be in Ryuukishi07's works...

Added note: I also think it's possible that Yasu could have invented Gaap-Beatrice and later come to project it onto Jessica, presumably as she projects Virgilia onto Kumasawa, etc.--as it is, we clearly see her shift roles for Gaap-Beatrice in the second half of Episode 7 (after the patch) so that she can claim the Beatrice title for herself. Perhaps this could be when she started having Jessica "play" Gaap, if this were the case.
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Old 2010-12-15, 23:07   Link #19803
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Originally Posted by TTR View Post
That's Gaap-Beatrice though. Something happens in EP4 that doesn't happen in EP7 Claire Stories. The penetrating heel-kick. This is a fact that, so far, hasn't been brought up in the Claire Stories. Isn't that enough evidence that Gaap-Beatrice and true Gaap aren't the same deal? I think that while Gaap-Beatrice was just Yasutrice's imagination, true Gaap may be a representation of a person.
Not not at all. If that were the case Genji and Ronove wouldn't be the same because Ronove doesn't throw knives at butterflies. That's just flimsy logic based on something we don't even know is true about the character.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:05   Link #19804
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The problem is... after EP7 I'm not even so sure anymore that Ronove and Virgilia actually are Genji and Kumasawa.

What made me change my mind is that scene where you see Maria and Beatrice in the fantasy world talking to Ronove and Virgilia, however as soon as the fantasy gets disrupted, there's no one there, just Maria and Beatrice.

This gives me the impression that Virgilia and Ronove are just how they imagine Kumasawa and Genji in their fantasy world, but Kumasawa and Genji themselves never actually played the part.

At any rate Ronove and Virgilia can appear in front of Maria and Beatrice regardless of their vessel's actual presence.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:16   Link #19805
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Quote:
That's Gaap-Beatrice though. Something happens in EP4 that doesn't happen in EP7 Claire Stories. The penetrating heel-kick. This is a fact that, so far, hasn't been brought up in the Claire Stories. Isn't that enough evidence that Gaap-Beatrice and true Gaap aren't the same deal? I think that while Gaap-Beatrice was just Yasutrice's imagination, true Gaap may be a representation of a person.
What does that have to do with anything? "Culprit X stabs George in the head. Makes up big ass lie about some stripper demon doing it."

Quote:
No, actually I have read both the patch and the entire seventh episode raw before that. I'm totally aware that this is how episode 7 *presents* Gaap-Beatrice.

I'm suggesting that what we are told by Yasu is not necessarily the whole story. I agree, it probably makes more sense to take Yasu's tale at face value, but we know all about how reliable narrators can be in Ryuukishi07's works...

Added note: I also think it's possible that Yasu could have invented Gaap-Beatrice and later come to project it onto Jessica, presumably as she projects Virgilia onto Kumasawa, etc.--as it is, we clearly see her shift roles for Gaap-Beatrice in the second half of Episode 7 (after the patch) so that she can claim the Beatrice title for herself. Perhaps this could be when she started having Jessica "play" Gaap, if this were the case.
No way Jessica is Gaap. She doesn't believe in magic in witches, and she's been a victim of Yasu's pranks, and to this day, still doesn't know the details behind it.

Yasu no longer has any reason to outright lie. She was alone every time she was talking to Gaap. Hiding any further details in the way you're implying defeats the point of Claire's confession.

@Ronove and Virgilia: To be fair, Beatrice herself appears to Maria in dreams and at home and stuff, according to Maria's fantasy scenes, so Virgilia and Ronove showing up without vessels doesn't mean Ronove and Virgilia never played the part.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:32   Link #19806
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Well, for the record, I was using Ronove and Genji's knife throwing as a comparison for how Gaap's heel kick isn't really based on truth. I don't think Genji is a knife throwing marksman either. It's more like that's how the character is imagined for the scene. Like in Jan-Poo's example.

The fact that the heel kick isn't used again in later episodes should actually be evidence that it's not one of Gaap's actual abilities. Not the other way around.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:45   Link #19807
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No way Jessica is Gaap. She doesn't believe in magic in witches, and she's been a victim of Yasu's pranks, and to this day, still doesn't know the details behind it.

Yasu no longer has any reason to outright lie. She was alone every time she was talking to Gaap. Hiding any further details in the way you're implying defeats the point of Claire's confession.
You're probably right. However, Jessica has already shown that she was lying about her asthma attacks. Is she hiding anything else? (Yeah, I know, probably not so much.)

Yasu may not be lying anymore than she has to lie about her magical powers. It's a matter of perspective and an overactive imagination. One helped along by others at times (cough Kumasawa Genji cough), it would seem. I don't have much faith in Yasu's ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy in relating her own story. Details may be unintentionally fudged.

I don't think she was necessarily always alone when talking with Gaap, though (just that from her perspective she was). At least not later in the second half of Episode 7, as not only Maria meets her, but is the one who gave her the name Gaap--she provided Yasu-Beatrice with all the occult-based names, and in return Yasu-Beatrice probably came up with names for the Siesta bunnies (and probably supplied the paperweight-stakes as additional inspiration for furniture).

I hear what you are saying, and agree my suggestion is probably too flawed to fit as it stands, but I just think it's possible Yasu's story may be missing a few details here and there, unintentionally or not, and there is some room for a few alternate possibilities still.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:48   Link #19808
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I think it's pretty obvious that the EP7 Tea Party is supposed to be the result of using Theatergoing Authority on the Eva from 1998.

EP7 was entirely about seeing different character's flashbacks or stories, it would make sense to stay with that theme all the way to the Tea Parties and end it with a character story too, and the most shocking one at that (it even happens in a Theater!).

Now, we know that some of the stories we saw were not entirely accurate because they were missing information, like the Kinzo flashback with him apparently initiating the attack on the Italians, etc. However I believe that is just a result of how the character in question (the one being "Theaterwatched") can choose which parts of the whole story to tell or how he actually believes the story happened, thanks to either genuine confusion at the time or heavy trauma. I don't think they can actually outright lie in the stories or there would be no point in calling the "power" an Authority.

My point is then, that the EP7 Tea Party was just Eva's recollection of what really happened in Rokkenjima, told by her. With Bern having absolutely nothing to do with it. This is implied by Eva's voice announcing the "play" right before it begins (why does everyone ignore this?). However she obviously didn't witness everything, not even close. And what little she did see became twisted after all the events in the gold guest room, her final encounter with Kyrie (who could have been acting that way on purpose for whatever reason) and the Explosion Accident and losing her entire family all in one go. In other words extremely distorted memories.

She never witnessed Kyrie relentlessly beating Jessica to death, or killing anyone in the Guest House, Rudolph killing George, both Rudolph and Kyrie acting like psychopaths, etc. She just created those scenes later to fill in the holes and to account for what she found afterward, with what she thought was common sense and the only possible explanation. But obviously she was very likely wrong in many parts.

In conclusion, Bernkastel was telling the truth when she said she wasn't the Gamemaster of anything. All she ever did was use Theatergoing Authority on Eva and sit back and watch the show. She called Ange in because she knew the kind of story Eva was going to tell and she just wanted to torture her a little. The Lion part is the only one that may have been constructed by her, but I'm not getting into that right now.

By the way the interrupted red in Japanese went: "この物語は全て真実 (This story is all true). And cut right there.

But that could easily have continued like this: "この物語は全て真実じゃない。しかし..." (This story is not all true. However...).

Bern could have easily guessed that Ange would interrupt her and she took a bet to make her feel even more miserable. But the red wasn't really meant to say that it was all the truth (and you don't have to deal with weird "Red isn't true" theories). It's classic Bern. However if this is true then the red would have to follow into saying something like "It's not all true but this and this did happen and this and this is the truth".



Wow this ended up being longer than I expected. I don't really post here at all but I always lurk and I felt I needed to say this after seeing what some people have been arguing.
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Old 2010-12-16, 00:59   Link #19809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis View Post
I think it's pretty obvious that the EP7 Tea Party is supposed to be the result of using Theatergoing Authority on the Eva from 1998.

EP7 was entirely about seeing different character's flashbacks or stories, it would make sense to stay with that theme all the way to the Tea Parties and end it with a character story too, and the most shocking one at that (it even happens in a Theater!).

Now, we know that some of the stories we saw were not entirely accurate because they were missing information, like the Kinzo flashback with him apparently initiating the attack on the Italians, etc. However I believe that is just a result of how the character in question (the one being "Theaterwatched") can choose which parts of the whole story to tell or how he actually believes the story happened, thanks to either genuine confusion at the time or heavy trauma. I don't think they can actually outright lie in the stories or there would be no point in calling the "power" an Authority.

My point is then, that the EP7 Tea Party was just Eva's recollection of what really happened in Rokkenjima, told by her. With Bern having absolutely nothing to do with it. This is implied by Eva's voice announcing the "play" right before it begins (why does everyone ignore this?). However she obviously didn't witness everything, not even close. And what little she did see became twisted after all the events in the gold guest room, her final encounter with Kyrie (who could have been acting that way on purpose for whatever reason) and the Explosion Accident and losing her entire family all in one go. In other words extremely distorted memories.

She never witnessed Kyrie relentlessly beating Jessica to death, or killing anyone in the Guest House, Rudolph killing George, both Rudolph and Kyrie acting like psychopaths, etc. She just created those scenes later to fill in the holes and to account for what she found afterward, with what she thought was common sense and the only possible explanation. But obviously she was very likely wrong in many parts.

In conclusion, Bernkastel was telling the truth when she said she wasn't the Gamemaster of anything. All she ever did was use Theatergoing Authority on Eva and sit back and watch the show. She called Ange in because she knew the kind of story Eva was going to tell and she just wanted to torture her a little. The Lion part is the only one that may have been constructed by her, but I'm not getting into that right now.
I like the general gist of this theory. As it was, I originally expected more of this sort of Rashomon-like use of narrative in Higurashi than there actually was.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:01   Link #19810
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
You're probably right. However, Jessica has already shown that she was lying about her asthma attacks. Is she hiding anything else? (Yeah, I know, probably not so much.)
I'm still not sure why people believe this. All Jessica says is she developed a bad habit of going into coughing fits to change the topic of conversation, and she's kept doing it ever since. She never says her asthma itself is fake, to me it sounds more like she's using the fact she has asthma as a basis to be able to control conversations she doesn't like.

I mean, why would she get the inhaler and stuff otherwise if it was totally fake?
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:06   Link #19811
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Originally Posted by tcaz View Post
I'm still not sure why people believe this. All Jessica says is she developed a bad habit of going into coughing fits to change the topic of conversation, and she's kept doing it ever since. She never says her asthma itself is fake, to me it sounds more like she's using the fact she has asthma as a basis to be able to control conversations she doesn't like.

I mean, why would she get the inhaler and stuff otherwise if it was totally fake?
I assumed it could have been prescribed from a false diagnosis, and was entirely psychosomatic. But I see your point, that certainly seems reasonable too.
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:52   Link #19812
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You're probably right. However, Jessica has already shown that she was lying about her asthma attacks. Is she hiding anything else? (Yeah, I know, probably not so much.)
You can't lie to someone using the Spectator's Authority on you. That's kind of the point.

Quote:
Yasu may not be lying anymore than she has to lie about her magical powers. It's a matter of perspective and an overactive imagination. One helped along by others at times (cough Kumasawa Genji cough), it would seem. I don't have much faith in Yasu's ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy in relating her own story. Details may be unintentionally fudged.
Then it'd be impossible for her to create any sort of plots of any sort.

Quote:
My point is then, that the EP7 Tea Party was just Eva's recollection of what really happened in Rokkenjima, told by her. With Bern having absolutely nothing to do with it. This is implied by Eva's voice announcing the "play" right before it begins (why does everyone ignore this?). However she obviously didn't witness everything, not even close. And what little she did see became twisted after all the events in the gold guest room, her final encounter with Kyrie (who could have been acting that way on purpose for whatever reason) and the Explosion Accident and losing her entire family all in one go. In other words extremely distorted memories.

She never witnessed Kyrie relentlessly beating Jessica to death, or killing anyone in the Guest House, Rudolph killing George, both Rudolph and Kyrie acting like psychopaths, etc. She just created those scenes later to fill in the holes and to account for what she found afterward, with what she thought was common sense and the only possible explanation. But obviously she was very likely wrong in many parts.
"People can't lie under the Spectator's Authority, but they can totally make up entire goddamn scenes."
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Old 2010-12-16, 01:54   Link #19813
Nero Allelujah
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Besides if Bernkastel's truth in EP7 was the actual, sole truth of the series, I'd hardly find a reason to make another episode if that's the case. And as it has been stated before, the human side has already achieved victory over the witch side, but Bernkastel ain't the type of character who would let that be the end. She IS the cruelest witch for a reason. As a side note, if she herself said she was not the Game Master, then she has not reached the innermost truths of the game as Battler, Beatrice, and Lamdadelta have.

As it stands, there's only three mysteries left unsolved ( in my opinion).

1. Who's Beatrice?- Readers have been saying that it is a split personality of Shannon and such, but until we have the direct truth from the author, its no more than speculation.

2. Who's the culprit and their motives? - Many people can fit this role. EP7 is just an interpretation of who could've been, then again, could be fake or a twist. We also have a few red truths that tell us who is not. Motive = money? Sounds like the biggest factor. But as found in EP5, it is possible for there to be personal grudges against the entire family.

3. The knock case of EP5 and Battler's Rescue in EP6? - Not sure if this even matters that much, but those two are still mysteries presented by the witch side for the human side to solve, and to record, I believe they have not been solved?
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Old 2010-12-16, 02:00   Link #19814
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"People can't lie under the Spectator's Authority, but they can totally make up entire goddamn scenes."
If they believe it is the truth, then they don't know they're lying.
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Old 2010-12-16, 02:03   Link #19815
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Originally Posted by Arcanis View Post
If they believe it is the truth, then they don't know they're lying.
That's a fair point, multiple truths can exist alongside one another. A lie can easily become the truth if its believed to be. EP5 was just like that.
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Old 2010-12-16, 02:26   Link #19816
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Well, for the record, I was using Ronove and Genji's knife throwing as a comparison for how Gaap's heel kick isn't really based on truth. I don't think Genji is a knife throwing marksman either. It's more like that's how the character is imagined for the scene. Like in Jan-Poo's example.

The fact that the heel kick isn't used again in later episodes should actually be evidence that it's not one of Gaap's actual abilities. Not the other way around.
Didnt Gaap use Heel kick blue truth to force Dlanor to use red on the status of the windows of the guesthouse.
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Old 2010-12-16, 02:41   Link #19817
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
I don't think she was necessarily always alone when talking with Gaap, though (just that from her perspective she was). At least not later in the second half of Episode 7, as not only Maria meets her, but is the one who gave her the name Gaap--she provided Yasu-Beatrice with all the occult-based names, and in return Yasu-Beatrice probably came up with names for the Siesta bunnies (and probably supplied the paperweight-stakes as additional inspiration for furniture).
Spoiler for Regarding Yasu's character creation process:



Also...

Spoiler for About "Without Love it Cannot Be Seen" and the "Truth":

Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-12-16 at 02:42. Reason: Holy crap.. long ass post...
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Old 2010-12-16, 03:11   Link #19818
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As a side note, if she herself said she was not the Game Master, then she has not reached the innermost truths of the game as Battler, Beatrice, and Lamdadelta have.
Hell, she herself said that since she had no love, she would get things wrong in the EP6 ????.

Quote:
1. Who's Beatrice?- Readers have been saying that it is a split personality of Shannon and such, but until we have the direct truth from the author, its no more than speculation.
Beatrice is Yasu/Shannon. This totally isn't even up for debate anymore.

Quote:
If they believe it is the truth, then they don't know they're lying.
That's no excuse for making up entire scenes you're not there to witness.

"So even though she didn't tell me or anything, I'm just gonna like pretend that Kyrie pummeled the fuck out of Jessica in the face until she died. That's totally what I believe in."

Quote:
But if you look at Ronove and Virgilia, not once has Genji or Kumasawa worn clothing like that, baked cookies, served tea or used magic.
Well, actually, Genji does bake cookies, according to Kumasawa. He taught Beatrice/Yasu/Kuwadorian Beatrice/whatever that scene was referencing.

I agree with your statements on what Ryukishi meant by an author's love, though, and...

Quote:
The truth is not in, "Did Kyrie kill a bunch of people?" "Did Eva shoot a bunch of people?" "Did Kanon dress up like a girl?" Those are just the mechanics of the murder. The truth is in, "Why did Kyrie kill a bunch of people?" "Why are the siblings ready to murder?" And if this 'why' is not consistent with previous characterization then her 'truth' ends up failing.

I think that's what you guys were talking about, right?
Yes, that's it. Aside from it being too convenient for Bern's EVULZ, Kyrie and Rudolf act nothing like how they would be if they were ACTUALLY murderers. I mean, Kyrie's already been proven to have the drive to kill, you don't need to alter her personality and make her an ax crazy psycho dumbass lunatic with no head on her shoulders. They're Kyrie and Rudolf in name and face only.
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Old 2010-12-16, 05:09   Link #19819
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Ryuukishi07 has said previously that he admires Rashomon and it has been an influence on some of his writing (though this was back when he was doing Higurashi). Rashomon was all about subjective truths (and/or lies in some cases) from different POVs that were at apparent odds with each other.

While I'm not sure about the Spectator's Authority being used on Eva necessarily (as it is never stated outright this is the case), I think that Arcanis is likely correct that the Tea Party show is basically how Eva chooses to remember what happened. Some of it is probably Eva's own imagination filling in the blanks, and dressed up as truth by Bern.

Also, even if I discard my whole Jessica-Gaap notion, I'm still a little bothered by the fact that Jessica has been living well over half her life going to school with this person, eventually crushes on them, but is somehow unable to see through the multiple roles thing to some degree. Something feels not right here.
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Old 2010-12-16, 07:54   Link #19820
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Originally Posted by Nero Allelujah View Post
1. Who's Beatrice?- Readers have been saying that it is a split personality of Shannon and such, but until we have the direct truth from the author, its no more than speculation.
Well I wouldn't lump all the speculations together. There are baseless speculations and there are heavily grounded speculations, and a lot of shades of gray in between. The speculation about Beatrice is supported by so many facts that only needs that 1% before reaching the status of red truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanis View Post
My point is then, that the EP7 Tea Party was just Eva's recollection of what really happened in Rokkenjima, told by her. With Bern having absolutely nothing to do with it. This is implied by Eva's voice announcing the "play" right before it begins (why does everyone ignore this?).
Can you quote that part? If it's as you said I totally missed it, it's also the first time that I hear someone pointing this out.

If I look at the text... the first one to talk as soon as the play begins is Hideyoshi...


Anyway I've been discussing the same matter with chronotrig and there are some things that I still can't understand if really everything is seeing under Eva perspective.

Well the main problem is, as AuraTwilight pointed out, is that the 66% of the tea party would still be completely fake, so it seems just a lame compromise in my opinion. A compromise between a "I don't want to believe it's all fake" and "This story just can't be true", except what is "not fake" it's heavily overshadowed by "what's fake" and you can't really make much use of it. You might as well think is all fake.


The second problem is that what Eva witnesses in first person is hard to explain as a misunderstanding.

Like when Kyrie shoots Rosa right in front of her eyes with a smiling face, and then proceeds to shoot Eva.
Was it all a play?
Maybe I could think so if it wasn't for Rudolf later saying:

"Oh, Eva... you were still alive?"


Why Rudolf would ask her that if he didn't believe she was actually dead?
Also if that was all a misunderstanding, why Rudolf on the verge of death didn't try to explain it, rather than keep on giving her the "wrong" impression?

I can hardly see how Ryuukishi can come up with a good explanation for those.
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