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Old 2010-12-16, 07:02   Link #161
applejuice
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
The idea that the anime failed becoz Jun Fukuyama wasn't cast as Keima is just Insane Troll Logic. There are fans who like Hiro Shimono as Keima and some of those fans were also people who wanted Jun at first.
I'm not going to lie. Shimono Hiro is no doubt, miscasting, which is not his fault but Manglobe's. I also thought at first he is doing fine job. However, as I watch through the episodes again and again, Shimono's Yoshii Akihisa voice is just ruining the picture of what Keima should be. I don't care about Jun Fukuyama, but Shimono is one of the visible reasons for this horrible DVD/BD rankings and fans going away.
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Old 2010-12-16, 07:06   Link #162
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Originally Posted by MrTerrorist View Post
The idea that the anime failed becoz Jun Fukuyama wasn't cast as Keima is just Insane Troll Logic. There are fans who like Hiro Shimono as Keima and some of those fans were also people who wanted Jun at first.
That's the problem; at best they liked him which might have been good enough if not for the fact that Keima is one of the best protagonist ever written for a manga. And I don't think anyone can claim that Hiro Shimono has given a performance that truly shows how awesome Keima is. I think most would have imagined him as a Lelouch or Light instead of a Akihisa before the anime aired, so there's definitely a miscast here.
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Old 2010-12-16, 08:51   Link #163
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Thank Kami that someone else gets it. As much as they've been trying to push Kanon and Shiori, and as ready-made as they are for popular consumption, the most popular character in the series outside of Keima and Elsie is nowhere near so stereotypical, and anything but "just a moe girl".

If only the powers that be at Manglobe had realized that by a little addition (one more episode) a little more subtraction (one episode each from Shiori and Kanon), and a bit of arc order shuffling, they could have ended the season having finished everyone's favorite devil "capture" arc while sticking close to the two-chapter an episode pace that was working so well at the beginning, and with a little more aggressive marketing, would be riding the Hakua train all the way to the bank. Anime hasn't seen so marketable a lead heroine since Bakemonogatari, and Hakua's not really even a lead...

Instead, they're going to end up with a lot of unsold Kanon CDs and no third season (and thus no Tenri)...
I think it might be salvageable if the second season does Haqua early, and has a "filler" episode where some of the girls "reappear" in Keima's life suggesting that, hey, this is not just "girl of the week".
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Old 2010-12-16, 09:16   Link #164
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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
Very. Sales of 60000 to 80000 per volume says it.
I wouldn't classify that as very popular.. it's notable but not "popular".. I mean people act like Medaka Box is a flop and it does 70-80k for its opening week...

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Originally Posted by Scy View Post
Not getting Jun Fukuyama to be Keima was the biggest mistake they have made, and possibly what that sank the whole anime. I just couldn't imagine anyone else as Keima; and even if they couldn't get Jun Fukuyama they should have at least found someone with a much more confident and charismatic voice. The anime Keima in many ways come off as being a wimp compared to the manga Keima.
Jun would've made zero difference. Lets not act like he hasn't been the lead for series that have flopped badly... Akikan anybody?
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Old 2010-12-16, 15:27   Link #165
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For those who think the pacing is crappy: how could they have done it differently? Going from the preview it was either 4/5 girls or 9 girls in one season. See speculations at the start of the anime. But now it's actually to wonder how the hell they are even supposed to fit the latter 5 girls within one season. If that's already difficuilt, how are you going to put 9 girls in one season, as in, change the pacing and add the "villain of the week"-effect? What about animation-wise? Could they have even fit all 9 girls (plus or minus 'fillers'?) within 12 episodes?
And didn't some of those people who feel things are dragged actually think Ayumi and Mio got shafted?
The 'only' thing that people aren't satisfied with is the pacing, and I'd like to understand their perspective more because I'm personally fine with it.
Problems with pacing aren't limited to whether they're doing it too fast (as 9 heroines in 12 episodes certainly would be) or too slow. The main gripe I have with the pacing is its inconsistency. If they're going to keep to the manga pace (as it appeared they were going to do at first) and animate a solid two (normal sized) chapters per episode, then keep doing it. If they're going to add an episode's worth of real filler to a heroine's arc, as they did with Kanon and Shiori (whether it's made-up backstory, expounded omake, or overdramatic CGI), then do it with all of them. When the pacing fluctuates as wildly as it does here, it's never good, no matter how popular the two girls who got the benefit of the extra time are. And now we're most likely left with 12 episodes to cover 5 heroines (most of whose arcs are longer than the ones this season, and none of whose are shorter), so the pace is going to change again.

And pacing is hardly the only issue. Mystifying rewrites that alter the impact of everything from the mythology of the series (Keima's initiation of conversation at the end of episode 1) to the characterization of a heroine (Shiori's meek confrontation with the chairman at the end of episode 11). A pathological urge to throw in overwrought pathos at every opportunity (if Manglobe didn't want to adapt a light-hearted series, they shouldn't have optioned TWGOK). Piss-poor comedic direction during the capture arcs (and spot-on during the "fillers"). Hell, a failure to properly market what on screen is turning into a generic (if high production value) eroge-adaption-style anime. Any other similar series would have flooded the magazines with cheesecake shots of their heroines, instead of setting up a CD of forgettable pop tunes to hit after the series is over... It wouldn't have bettered their adaptation, but it least they might have become more popular...

But the main issue I have with this adaptatioon is that its soul just doesn't feel the same. It's so boring and bland. It's the same kind of problem Hollywood has with so many of its adaptations. X is currently popular. Studio sees a property that outwardly resembles X. Studio adapts property and accentuates its similarities to X while diminishing its differences. That's how you get a (playful at mildest) parody of eroge adaptations and "cute girl" anime turned into a near textbook example.

Hiro Shimono I have no problem with. If they had adapted the manga properly, I might have had more of an issue with him, but probably not. I still think Mamoru Miyano would have been perfect (equal parts Death the Kid and Light Yagami), but Shimono is more than adequate.
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Old 2010-12-16, 23:08   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
I wouldn't classify that as very popular.. it's notable but not "popular".. I mean people act like Medaka Box is a flop and it does 70-80k for its opening week...
Selling about 40k (or even lower) is usually a cut-line where you call it 'popular manga' and get an animation ._. I wonder why people say Medaka Box is bad.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
But the main issue I have with this adaptatioon is that its soul just doesn't feel the same. It's so boring and bland. It's the same kind of problem Hollywood has with so many of its adaptations. X is currently popular. Studio sees a property that outwardly resembles X. Studio adapts property and accentuates its similarities to X while diminishing its differences. That's how you get a (playful at mildest) parody of eroge adaptations and "cute girl" anime turned into a near textbook example.
That's where specific animation directions and editing comes into the play. Camera Angles, music, style of drawing; all of those seems to be just thrown everywhere without much considerations.
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:42   Link #167
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Selling about 40k (or even lower) is usually a cut-line where you call it 'popular manga' and get an animation ._. I wonder why people say Medaka Box is bad.
Presumably, some of those people say it's bad because they think it's bad. I've never read Medaka Box, so I have no opinion on its worth, but "popular" and "good" hardly have an iron-clad relationship.

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Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
That's where specific animation directions and editing comes into the play. Camera Angles, music, style of drawing; all of those seems to be just thrown everywhere without much considerations.
I'm not so sure. Relentlessflame had a post in the Ep 11 thread that rings true to me on one point, and that's that the individual arcs (at least for Kanon and Shiori) appear to be directed in a manner deemed fitting for the respective subjects.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame
if Kanon's arc turned the show into a 'music anime', then Shiori's arc turned the show into a 'book-lovers anime' in some ways...
If this is intentional on the part of the anime staff, then I respect their attempt at artistry, but feel it's quite inappropriate. This series doesn't need any gimmicks to set it apart from the crowd; its very premise is "gimmick" enough for that, and its laid-back, no-nonsense approach to plot advancement (especially towards the beginning) make such pretention seem as unnecessary as the anime's overplayed melodrama.

Let's say TWGOK is a Honda Civic. It's not as popular as the expensive gas-guzzler your obnoxious neighbor likes to slow roll up and down the street, but it's inexpensive, reliable, gets great gas mileage, is easy to take care of, has attractive (if not exactly breathtaking) styling, and, as someone who has owned one can attest, drives like a dream. Manglobe doesn't need to be adding a spoiler, custom rims, ground effects, and a gaudy paint job. Sure, a certain crowd may prefer that kind of thing, but what good does it do you if it doesn't handle as well now, it starts rattling like a caged demon once you get it over 65, and the cute girl next door giggles at you every time you bottom out rolling into your driveway?
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Old 2010-12-17, 04:32   Link #168
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Presumably, some of those people say it's bad because they think it's bad. I've never read Medaka Box, so I have no opinion on its worth, but "popular" and "good" hardly have an iron-clad relationship.
Well, I was actually going to say 'I wonder why people say Medaka bad in terms of sales'.

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I'm not so sure. Relentlessflame had a post in the Ep 11 thread that rings true to me on one point, and that's that the individual arcs (at least for Kanon and Shiori) appear to be directed in a manner deemed fitting for the respective subjects.
What I'm referring is even more specific ones, something like that idiotic Heidi parody we've seen in the third episode. A lot of brilliant comedies in manga which was drawn in a single panels got dragged and lost its charm. There were really, really awkward directions that sometimes left me either go wtf, or just get plain-bored. Not just comedies; things like dancing scene from Kanon or 'I can see the ending' sequence definitely wasn't effective as it should be. In 9th episode, we had original element added where Shiori goes 'Book is history! Book is the world!', which I thought was very lacking (dull camera angles, dynamics, colouring, lack of creative special effects).

Of course, it's my opinion. However, it's still true that there are some sort of huge holes in Manglobe's direction throughout the series that I just can't ignore. Those might look very insignificant, but those small things are what cause majority of fans to turn around. These kind of specific directions are actually what SHAFT is good at, except the fact that they go overboard with these stuff and make it too 'shafty', creating tons of antis.
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Old 2010-12-17, 09:03   Link #169
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Not getting Jun Fukuyama to be Keima was the biggest mistake they have made, and possibly what that sank the whole anime. I just couldn't imagine anyone else as Keima; and even if they couldn't get Jun Fukuyama they should have at least found someone with a much more confident and charismatic voice. The anime Keima in many ways come off as being a wimp compared to the manga Keima.
Actually for me it is ok Hiro Shimono. Jun is a great seiyuu, but I don't think that he not being Keima was the reason this season sank and had so low DVD sales. For me it is the fact that Manglobe screwed it with the pacing. Ayumi and Mio were ok but Kanon they only shoved us with music and Shiori was quite slow.
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Old 2010-12-17, 09:31   Link #170
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What I'm referring is even more specific ones, something like that idiotic Heidi parody we've seen in the third episode. A lot of brilliant comedies in manga which was drawn in a single panels got dragged and lost its charm. There were really, really awkward directions that sometimes left me either go wtf, or just get plain-bored. Not just comedies; things like dancing scene from Kanon or 'I can see the ending' sequence definitely wasn't effective as it should be. In 9th episode, we had original element added where Shiori goes 'Book is history! Book is the world!', which I thought was very lacking (dull camera angles, dynamics, colouring, lack of creative special effects).

Of course, it's my opinion. However, it's still true that there are some sort of huge holes in Manglobe's direction throughout the series that I just can't ignore. Those might look very insignificant, but those small things are what cause majority of fans to turn around. These kind of specific directions are actually what SHAFT is good at, except the fact that they go overboard with these stuff and make it too 'shafty', creating tons of antis.
I liked the Heidi parody. I think Manglobe hasn't done too badly when they've actually attempted humor. They've just made a point of actively diminishing it when inside the capture arcs (outside of the Keimaisms), when in the manga there's often humor right up to the point of capture.

And even then, I can actually forgive that, up to a point. If they want to make the capture arcs a bit more serious and leave the "filler episodes" as islands of humor, I can see the reasoning behind that. It's just the extension and exaggeration of those capture arcs push it over my limit. In both the Kanon and Shiori arcs, there are times when what they do works, but there are also numerous times where you're actively waiting for something to happen—about, oh...22 minutes worth in each arc. Seriously, even leaving things as they have done, if they had lopped an episode each from Kanon and Shiori, squeezed in an extra arc (Kusunoki or preferably Hakua), and gone 13 episodes, keeping to the brisk but consistent pace of the first several episodes (up to and including Kanon's first episode), I'd have been golden.
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Old 2010-12-17, 09:47   Link #171
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Actually for me it is ok Hiro Shimono. Jun is a great seiyuu, but I don't think that he not being Keima was the reason this season sank and had so low DVD sales. For me it is the fact that Manglobe screwed it with the pacing. Ayumi and Mio were ok but Kanon they only shoved us with music and Shiori was quite slow.
The problem is, DVD and BD sales was low ever since its first episode was aired, no I can actually say pre-order ranking was 'always' somewhat low. From what I remember, anticipation sink happened precisely right after the animation studio and cast announcement.

It's pretty obvious that pacing is not a cause of DVD sales, because I know how Mio's arc was well paced and Ayumi arc was super fast. It's something else, more complicated.
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:38   Link #172
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Well, that was my opinion but I admit that there are a lot of Jun fans that wanted him to voice Keima but honestly, I never imagined Keima speaking like Lulu before Kami Nomi was animated. I haven't heard complains of Kanae voicing Elsie though.
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Old 2010-12-17, 21:17   Link #173
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Hiro Shimono isn't the problem. The only way he could be is if his voice was so terribly unfitting (e.g. this and this) that it becomes unintentionally funny or annoying. Shimono fits Keima's character well enough.

One problem is with the tone of Kanon and Shiori's arcs. The anime begins with a close adaptation to the manga and begins their arc on a light, humorous note. Then the next episode it's completely serious. The transition is fairly abrupt and inappropriate. If the anime wants to keep the comedy, then it needs to be kept throughout the entire arc. If the anime wants to make it a serious romance, then the comedy should have been toned down from the start, even if it is unfaithful to the manga.

The second problem is the girls (or lack thereof) this season. The story doesn't pick up until Haqua and Tenri appear, and I'm sure plenty of fans are partial to at least one of the girls past Shiori. If the studio had made up its mind on whether to make the anime a comedic parody like the manga, or a serious romance like they did for the latter half of Kanon and Shiori's captures, the anime would have been better received as a seious romance, or fit more girls in if they decide to stick to the comedy.
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Old 2010-12-18, 10:08   Link #174
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Hiro Shimono isn't the problem. The only way he could be is if his voice was so terribly unfitting (e.g. this and this) that it becomes unintentionally funny or annoying. Shimono fits Keima's character well enough.

The second problem is the girls (or lack thereof) this season. The story doesn't pick up until Haqua and Tenri appear, and I'm sure plenty of fans are partial to at least one of the girls past Shiori. If the studio had made up its mind on whether to make the anime a comedic parody like the manga, or a serious romance like they did for the latter half of Kanon and Shiori's captures, the anime would have been better received as a seious romance, or fit more girls in if they decide to stick to the comedy.
Is Hiro a good seiyuu? I don't know him a lot, I have only listened his voice in Kami Nomi and Resonance of Fate and on both he has the same voice. I'm saying because when they animate Yui arc Hiro must change Keima's voice to one more effeminate after the body swap.

Well, I admit that many fans love more Haqua and Tenri/Diana (personally I love them too) than any of the capture girls. I also remember that there was a poll in Red Hawk Scans and as far as I remember the most favorite captured girl was Chihiro and she was far ahead than the girls of this season so it may be right about that part. I wonder how the second season will go: Kusonoki, Haqua, Chihiro and Tsukiyo arcs next season.
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Old 2010-12-18, 19:39   Link #175
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Is Hiro a good seiyuu? I don't know him a lot, I have only listened his voice in Kami Nomi and Resonance of Fate and on both he has the same voice. I'm saying because when they animate Yui arc Hiro must change Keima's voice to one more effeminate after the body swap.
Well, it's doubtful that they're ever going to get that far, but usually the only male seiyuu who gain the popularity to portray the lead male in a series (which Hiro has done at least twice now) are those whose manliness trancends human bounds (Norio Wakamoto, Tomokazu Sugita) and those who play a believable uke (no, that is not short for "ukulele"). Do not underestimate the power of the dark side of the Force fujoshi, especially when it comes to male voicecasting.
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Old 2010-12-18, 20:22   Link #176
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Is Hiro a good seiyuu? I don't know him a lot, I have only listened his voice in Kami Nomi and Resonance of Fate and on both he has the same voice. I'm saying because when they animate Yui arc Hiro must change Keima's voice to one more effeminate after the body swap.
Shimono Hiro is a decent seiyuu. He is really good at over-the-top comedy character, which shined in Yoshi Akihisa in Baka to Test. He also does a lot of VN roles with alternative name. (aka 'DARK SIDE' name) A lot of seiyuus like working with him, because he is friendly to everyone and has very good personality. However, he always have too much 'childishness' in his acting, which sometimes does not fit with the character.

and seeing the pre-order ranking, I doubt we will have Yui's story getting animated.
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Old 2010-12-19, 00:21   Link #177
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Shimono Hiro is a decent seiyuu. He is really good at over-the-top comedy character, which shined in Yoshi Akihisa in Baka to Test. He also does a lot of VN roles with alternative name. (aka 'DARK SIDE' name) A lot of seiyuus like working with him, because he is friendly to everyone and has very good personality. However, he always have too much 'childishness' in his acting, which sometimes does not fit with the character.

and seeing the pre-order ranking, I doubt we will have Yui's story getting animated.
It was never all that likely we'd get to Yui, even if the show was more popular than the manga. Even at the pace the series started at (about 2:1 chapters to episodes, 1:1 for the odd "filler" chapter that doesn't fit sandwiched in with a different chapter or deserves its own spotlight), they would need at least 40 episodes to get to Yui, much less finish her arc. Now that it seems evident that Manglobe prefers a much more subdued (read: zzz...) adaptation pace (more like 4:3), they'd need at least 70, if not more. Most long form shounen series don't last that long (FMA only got 64), let alone comedy romances.

I was hoping we'd get a third season and a chance at Tenri/Diana, but at this point we'll be lucky if they can even fit the rest of the heroines from the PV into two...
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Old 2010-12-19, 10:37   Link #178
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Season 2 (IMO):

Ep 1, 2 - kusunoki
Ep 3, 4 - Hakua
Ep 5 - Tea and "Rainy Days and Mondays" chapter
Ep 6, 7 - Chiriro
Ep 8 - Keima & Elsse shopping and Mom chapter
Ep 9, 10, 11 - Jun
Ep 12 - The Little Devil and Moon child Chapter
Ep 13, 14 - Tsukiyo
Ep 15 finale - Hakua partner chapters

"The Dawn of Something" chapter is boring, I hope it isn't get animated.
"The Dawn of Something" is one of the best chapters in the series, and is ideal for adaptation to an animated form. You clearly have no appreciation for parody...
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Old 2010-12-19, 12:10   Link #179
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at that pacing it still had a 1 episode filler. What if a half episode filler? though I kinda like that pacing though I also like the filler chapters of the manga. And the anime already didn't animate much of it.
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Old 2010-12-20, 16:27   Link #180
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
It was never all that likely we'd get to Yui, even if the show was more popular than the manga. Even at the pace the series started at (about 2:1 chapters to episodes, 1:1 for the odd "filler" chapter that doesn't fit sandwiched in with a different chapter or deserves its own spotlight), they would need at least 40 episodes to get to Yui, much less finish her arc. Now that it seems evident that Manglobe prefers a much more subdued (read: zzz...) adaptation pace (more like 4:3), they'd need at least 70, if not more. Most long form shounen series don't last that long (FMA only got 64), let alone comedy romances.

I was hoping we'd get a third season and a chance at Tenri/Diana, but at this point we'll be lucky if they can even fit the rest of the heroines from the PV into two...
I hope the second season is more popular than this one because Yui's arc is my favorite of all, so much win and fun on that one. Also I love Haqua and specially Tenri but yeah, I'm stating to believe they will not go that far. If the second season is the same or worst than this one then they will stop at Tsukiyo possibly and drop the serie.
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