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Old 2010-12-16, 17:50   Link #19841
chronotrig
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@Renall:

Wait, just because the games are fictions, like detective novels written by Yasu, doesn't mean that they're allowed to be internally inconsistent. At the very least, Battler's perspective should be accurate, since otherwise, 90% of the story is next to meaningless.

That doesn't mean the events in the game happen in real life, but the games must be internally consistent by some set if rules.
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Old 2010-12-16, 17:53   Link #19842
Renall
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Uh... when did I ever say that? It's the perspective you're advancing that leads to internal inconsistency, not mine.

Please read what was actually written. If you're having trouble understanding what I mean I can explain, but it would help if you would ask. I'd rather you understand and disagree than continuously misinterpret and misapply and argue with things nobody has talked about.
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:06   Link #19843
chronotrig
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Why did Kyrie say that Kanon died in the way he did?


Edit: Sorry, thought you were talking about my later post. The question still stands though.
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:09   Link #19844
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You have to really be trying to overlook a character arc to not see it there. Shannon and Kanon develop. This shouldn't happen. Every piece ought to be like Battler, whose narration shows no signs of recognition of any prior events. Yet Kanon and Shannon not only appear to remember them, they even discuss them and act as if they have learned from them. This has no relevant meaning in a "disguising ninja Yasu" variant of Shkanon. It's not just that it can't explain this development arc, it has no reason to want to.
Just throwing in that I personally felt that Shannon and Kanon have this meta-awareness because they are "Beatrice", just like how the "survivors" of EP1 (the cousins and Yasu) were present in Purgatorio.

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Why did Kyrie say that Kanon died in that way?
...what?
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:16   Link #19845
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
  • Who else behaves in this fashion, with this same degree of development? Beatrice. BATTLER. ANGE. Sakutarou. MARIA.
I don't know, but somehow, I think these people's case was a little different kind of development from Shannon and Kannon. Besides, it's kinda unfair grouping the pieces character and the meta-characters together, because meta-characters are the ones actually playing the continuous narration part.

and what I mean by 'piece characters', they are the recurring characters in the 1986 board games. Ange's story doesn't repeat and in fact a continuous narrative, so her and any character in her narrative's development is only to be expected. In this regard, the only piece characters to have past games recollection is just Shannon, Kanon, and perhaps piece-Beatrice (aaaand Erika lol).
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Old 2010-12-16, 20:40   Link #19846
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Allow me to attempt to explain why Shkanon in the traditional sense is the most disrespectful thing to be wielded against those characters.

Shannon and Kanon are furniture. Furniture attends to the needs of the witch and serves the witch's ends. From the standpoint that the witch is the teller of stories (whether literally or in "magic" terms, or one and the same if you wish), furniture are literary devices that serve the ends of the storyteller.

Shannon and Kanon are created as literal literary furniture, dehumanized pieces put into place to fulfill the needs of the writer. They don't really have backstories, they're servant characters (a traditional utility role), they're given magic powers when it suits (described as human forms created by Kinzo's magic), whatever is required.

Except... they start to rebel, as early as the second message bottle story. Shannon is a step ahead. She desires to become human. Beatrice doesn't think it's possible and warns her she'll only be disappointed. She is a character, not a person; that's basically Beatrice's thesis there. Kanon warns Shannon of the same thing. But he too winds up falling for Jessica and wanting to become human.

They rebel a lot and a lot more often against the machinations of "Beatrice." They plant themselves in opposition to the role that the storyteller originally set for them. This continues through multiple authors, but it's even present in the original. The whole notion of "the author seeing themselves in Shannon and Kanon" is important, because my suspicion is they were not initially supposed to do this. If you think about the roles they play in ep1, they're rather minor players (despite being obvious culprit candidates). Their surface roles are basically to play as victims. As their rebellion mounts and they fight toward humanity, their prominence increases.

Kanon is more obvious than Shannon perhaps because of the long delay before we learn his name. Kanon is just Kanon for the longest time. A fake name for a fake person, which is all he thinks he is. It doesn't matter if Yoshiya is actually his name or not or if there ever was a Kanon in the first place. By claiming a name he's claiming to be a person, his own person at that. There is a freaking person behind Kanon, and that person deserves to be able to fight for Jessica just like anyone else. That he may not have "really" existed isn't relevant to where he is now. We can actually twist George's words around there, in fact...

What does it mean exactly to "become human?" I think, in part, it means not being disposable or flexible anymore as a character. Shannon and Kanon become Sayo and Yoshiya and their personalities and desires become fixed. They are now as predictable as any other piece, and that's a good thing, because it means their characters have enough depth that they can no longer be manipulated on a whim.

In ep6 they're set against each other, and they fight, but then at the end everybody gets what they wanted anyway. They are human, their love is real, they deserve happiness. ANGE wonders whether this "satisfies the witch." Now if they didn't do what the author wanted, would that satisfy her? Well... possibly. Just because they took on a life that wasn't intended doesn't mean that unexpected development wasn't actually a pleasant surprise. Or that it didn't turn out to mean something more than would have been expected.

Now compare this to a certain person we've been introduced to. Someone torn between feelings of being inadequate and inhuman and believing themselves to be special and deserving of so much more than they have. Someone whose wishes to become human were transferred subconsciously into even the smallest roles in their stories. And those wishes took form, took root, and took flight.

Beatrice demanded Battler acknowledge her as a witch, but I think it's clear that what Battler actually realized and acknowledged was a person. Which was the goal all along. If the intent is to mirror the human author's personal struggle to be acknowledged, shunting Shannon and Kanon into authorial gimmick mode is denying the very same thematic element.

It may well be that they were implemented to create that doubt. But they fought against it over time. They distinguished themselves. Behind a surface existence, two "characters" fought to become "humans." Behind a story, a "witch" fought for the same thing. I don't want to deny that any more than Battler wanted a family member cast into the role of a killer. It's easy to mock shippers' attachment to the Shannon/George or Kanon/Jessica relationships, but isn't it telling that there's anything there to appreciate in the first place?
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Old 2010-12-16, 21:07   Link #19847
AuraTwilight
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I really, really, really love that interpretation, but then how are we supposed to interpret the love duel under this lens (the biggest 'evidence' for Shkanon)? Under this mode of thought, why could only one of them have the miracle of love?
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Old 2010-12-16, 21:20   Link #19848
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I would question the source and examine the facts. There's no particular reason to believe that the premise is absolutely true, nor that the conclusion requires the actual result advanced.

That is, the love duel exists because somebody says it has to exist. Beatrice can't be revived because somebody says she can't revive. Only one can have the miracle of love because somebody says only one can. Battler can only be saved by his own effort in the Logic Error because that's what he's told he has to do.

What actually happens? Kanon persists in some fashion, Beatrice revives, Battler is extricated by Kanon and Beatrice, and everyone achieves the miracle of love. Events contradict statements. The statements are wrong. Expectations have been defied.

You could look at this as an attempt by an outside source to "force Beatrice into a role." That is, the aspects of the author seen by someone else are forced into conflict to see which one is "real," and thus most important, and which ones are "furniture" and worthy of being discarded. Pushing at Beatrice. And, as Kanon advises Chick-Beato, the response to this is to push back. "Beatrice" is not her characters. Insert some empowering bullhonkey about Beatrice reviving because she realized she can love BATTLER as characters, I'm tired.
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Old 2010-12-16, 23:04   Link #19849
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It may well be that they were implemented to create that doubt. But they fought against it over time. They distinguished themselves. Behind a surface existence, two "characters" fought to become "humans." Behind a story, a "witch" fought for the same thing. I don't want to deny that any more than Battler wanted a family member cast into the role of a killer. It's easy to mock shippers' attachment to the Shannon/George or Kanon/Jessica relationships, but isn't it telling that there's anything there to appreciate in the first place?
There have been many times people have disagreed with you about this, but now I see that is it probably just because people didn't understand your perspective on it.

I agree with Aura that I really like this interpretation of Shannon and Kanon. I think it's an excellent segue into my personal views on the meta world, that they are fully real in this higher dimension. I see this as a perfect example of 'transcending' and how Yasu and Maria's 'delusions' can become fully real in a sense.
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Old 2010-12-17, 01:32   Link #19850
erneiz_hyde
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Oh, I kinda get it. I think what Renall is doing now is kinda similar to Will denying Bern's truth in the end of ep.7.

to put it very simply: even though enormous amounts of evidence had been shown, Renall is denying Shkanon based on the fact that they have development, that they each have the right to exist as characters(ninja EDIT: or, humans as he put it) in the fiction, cmiiw.

Just like even though it's shown that Lion's future is bleak no matter how you slice it, Will wanted to protect Lion's happiness because it's fiction, where Lion has all the right to get a happy ending.
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:15   Link #19851
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Renall, your theory is really, excellent. But I'm left unsatisfied with your interpretation of the duel. If you consider the importance that Ryukishi seems to attribute to both its premise and conclusion, dismissing them seems to me like a failure to rigorously address it. Is there a different way the duel could be interpreted? If there isn't, can you explain your position in more detail?
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:22   Link #19852
AuraTwilight
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Oh, I kinda get it. I think what Renall is doing now is kinda similar to Will denying Bern's truth in the end of ep.7.

to put it very simply: even though enormous amounts of evidence had been shown, Renall is denying Shkanon based on the fact that they have development, that they each have the right to exist as characters(ninja EDIT: or, humans as he put it) in the fiction, cmiiw.

Just like even though it's shown that Lion's future is bleak no matter how you slice it, Will wanted to protect Lion's happiness because it's fiction, where Lion has all the right to get a happy ending.
...That's not really what he's getting at whatsoever.

Quote:
Renall, your theory is really, excellent. But I'm left unsatisfied with your interpretation of the duel. If you consider the importance that Ryukishi seems to attribute to both its premise and conclusion, dismissing them seems to me like a failure to rigorously address it. Is there a different way the duel could be interpreted? If there isn't, can you explain your position in more detail?
I agree. He's not really addressing it, I think. Consider that the whole "everyone achieving love" thing happened in the Golden Land, which Zepar and Furfur said was an option from the beginning.
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:36   Link #19853
erneiz_hyde
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Oh my, then I guess I kinda misinterpreted his saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Allow me to attempt to explain why Shkanon in the traditional sense is the most disrespectful thing to be wielded against those characters.
My bad, thanks for correcting me. Please continue the discussion
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Old 2010-12-17, 03:39   Link #19854
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post

I agree. He's not really addressing it, I think. Consider that the whole "everyone achieving love" thing happened in the Golden Land, which Zepar and Furfur said was an option from the beginning.
Hrm.

Quote:
You could look at this as an attempt by an outside source to "force Beatrice into a role." That is, the aspects of the author seen by someone else are forced into conflict to see which one is "real," and thus most important, and which ones are "furniture" and worthy of being discarded. Pushing at Beatrice. And, as Kanon advises Chick-Beato, the response to this is to push back.
Which would be that it's entirely possible that the Love Duel, under this interpretation, really would be the key to understanding the mystery, since it's an analogy for forcing a readers interpretation onto the author's work?

Which is to say...the Love Duel was meant to be a roundabout way of putting Shkannon on the same level as Small Bombs? The choice is a false one, and the fact is that happiness was possible for all three from the very beginning? It's late and Im honestly unable to take the thought process further.
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Old 2010-12-17, 05:04   Link #19855
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I wonder if that theory might be a way to explain why Genji is referred to as furniture along with Shannon and Kanon? He's never really gotten proper development, and Battler even calls him out for being a robot at one point; he's basically a cardboard cutout butler. So maybe he's a character invented for the story too, one that never strove for the development necessary to become more than one-dimensional furniture?
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Old 2010-12-17, 05:46   Link #19856
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Which would be that it's entirely possible that the Love Duel, under this interpretation, really would be the key to understanding the mystery, since it's an analogy for forcing a readers interpretation onto the author's work?

Which is to say...the Love Duel was meant to be a roundabout way of putting Shkannon on the same level as Small Bombs? The choice is a false one, and the fact is that happiness was possible for all three from the very beginning? It's late and Im honestly unable to take the thought process further.
Sorry, I'm entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you trying to argue that the Shkanon thing is being "pushed by Battler" and thus discrediting it, just like small bombs was clearly bullshit because it was an answer we were being given instead of left to figure out?

I'm not sure it's properly comparable, since the Love Duel is pretty much half of the entire goddamn episode's plot, and EP6 is "a confession", not meant to have much difficulty.

@LyricalAura: EXACTLY.
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Old 2010-12-17, 08:07   Link #19857
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It may well be that they were implemented to create that doubt. But they fought against it over time. They distinguished themselves. Behind a surface existence, two "characters" fought to become "humans." Behind a story, a "witch" fought for the same thing. I don't want to deny that any more than Battler wanted a family member cast into the role of a killer. It's easy to mock shippers' attachment to the Shannon/George or Kanon/Jessica relationships, but isn't it telling that there's anything there to appreciate in the first place?
I don't understand why the fact that they fight to become human necessarily means that they both can achieve that goal, nor can I understand why the fact that only one can achieve that goal changes the fact that they are both trying to achieve it.

To make an example, just take your usual sport anime or manga. The plot usually revolves around different characters all trying to become the champion or the number one. All characters usually fight with the same effort to reach that goal, more or less everyone share the same ambition with the same intensity.
But it's obvious since the beginning that only one or only one team will be able to crown his dream.

I don't think that the losing characters suddenly lose depth (although in most cases they end up disappearing from the story completely) just because they were defeated. It is simply a necessity of life, and a narrative necessity, for a victory to entail many other losses in order to be really grand.


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That is, the love duel exists because somebody says it has to exist. Beatrice can't be revived because somebody says she can't revive. Only one can have the miracle of love because somebody says only one can. Battler can only be saved by his own effort in the Logic Error because that's what he's told he has to do.

What actually happens? Kanon persists in some fashion, Beatrice revives, Battler is extricated by Kanon and Beatrice, and everyone achieves the miracle of love. Events contradict statements. The statements are wrong. Expectations have been defied.
Wait I think you are not seeing the whole truth here.

1) The old Beatrice didn't revive. The Beatrice that Battler revived was a new Beatrice. Still Beatrice but not the same Beatrice.
The expectation wasn't betrayed, because this point was made quite clear since the beginning of EP6

2) Again, Furfur and Zepar were quite clear on this point, as LyricalAura also noted, In the golden land is possible for all furniture to become human and love and that's what happens at the end of the game. There is no surprise nor any betrayal.

3) What the bad guys say is completely irrelevant, or rather, the "betrayal" of what a bad guy say has always been, narratively, a positive twist in the story and not a flaw.
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Old 2010-12-17, 09:31   Link #19858
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Who says Zepar and Furfur are trustworthy, again? Just who do they really work for? I'm immediately suspicious of people popping in out of nowhere with brand new rules and requirements and assuring me that things have to turn out a particular way. They fought each other because they were desperate to take that final step. Shannon wins, but Kanon winds up "earning" his reward anyway. And Beatrice comes back in full force. By any indications, the premise Zepar and Furfur present is wrong (although they may well have intended that; it's fairly clear the two of them present a divide between what they say and what they mean).

The Golden Land thing is completely irrelevant because... that's just how it happens anyway. Nobody actually wins anything before the story reaches its climax, at which point it doesn't matter who won because everybody wins. They were never in the "real world" to begin with. The story is playing a shell game.

Beatrice did revive. Featherine's statement is still technically true for the reasons you stated, but that's semantics and completely thematically meaningless. It's Beatrice. She acts like Beatrice, she trolls like Beatrice, she's accepted as Beatrice. Big Beato suggests the two of them might somehow become her. Ange/Featherine/Battler/Virgilia seem to think similar experiences could cause her to develop like her. And then it happens, and Battler is happy, so whatever, she's a Beatrice.

Look, I'm talking about themes. It's not worth grasping at straws here. None of these issues is inexplicable, I just haven't adequately explained them because I'm not thinking of them hard enough. Nothing suggests to me "Hrm, maybe this can't be viewed in this way."
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I wonder if that theory might be a way to explain why Genji is referred to as furniture along with Shannon and Kanon? He's never really gotten proper development, and Battler even calls him out for being a robot at one point; he's basically a cardboard cutout butler. So maybe he's a character invented for the story too, one that never strove for the development necessary to become more than one-dimensional furniture?
The problem, of course, is that Genji presumably was a real person (I mean it's possible he wasn't, but I wouldn't think so). There are nuances of Genji's behavior being different than expected in the characterization of Ronove, a few lines in ep6, and of course in ep7 generally. It's possible his characterization was intentionally concealed by the message bottle author for whatever reason and not developed by subsequent authors, or that the message bottle author just didn't know him very well (but that would seem to fly in the face of Kanon's claim in ep6 and Yasu's relationship with him in ep7, which would at least give enough to go on).
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Old 2010-12-17, 11:44   Link #19859
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Who says Zepar and Furfur are trustworthy, again?
Ryuukishi did.


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It's not worth grasping at straws here.
But you are totally doing that. The evidences are clear as crystals and you just ignore them and interpret them your own way as if you didn't know how this story is filled with metaphors or as if the importance of semantic in this story was something completely new!

Are you going all lawyer on me? I hope not, because there's nothing more biased than a lawyer's argument.
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Old 2010-12-17, 11:48   Link #19860
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Maybe the authors deliberately depicted Genji as a robot to cover him from/for something?

btw,
Spoiler for for Renall:
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