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Old 2010-12-17, 11:58   Link #19861
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ryuukishi did.
He said we need to pay attention to them and to what they say. He said what they say is very important and touches on some of the most important themes of the story. That's definitely true. That doesn't mean they are speaking in plain and ordinary truth, and if you think that I can't imagine why given that theatrics is basically their gimmick. It's like trying to untangle Shakespeare. No doubt their words are full of truth. That doesn't follow that their words are necessarily true.
Quote:
But you are totally doing that. The evidences are clear as crystals and you just ignore them and interpret them your own way as if you didn't know how this story is filled with metaphors or as if the importance of semantic in this story was something completely new!

Are you going all lawyer on me? I hope not, because there's nothing more biased than a lawyer's argument.
In addition to being personally insulting, this is incredibly arrogant and factually incorrect. The evidence is quite subject to interpretation and most of it is clear as mud. If it were crystal, Ryukishi wouldn't be going into ep8 as happy about his work as he is. He thinks he's got something good to end on. If everything were crystal clear, there'd be nothing to surprise us.

People are apparently unable to distinguish between facts as evidence and testimony as evidence. There is a huge and essential difference between "x is true" and "this person says x is true." There is also a huge difference between "this person says x is true" and "this person actually believes x is true."

Hypothetically, if Bern knew (or personally believed) the ep7 TP wasn't true, would she still have motive to tell Ange it was? Of course she would. I get the strange sense people are not used to unreliable narrators or untrustworthy witness accounts, and Umineko is clearly full of those.

These themes exist whether Ryukishi intended them to be there or not, and whether he specifically addresses them in the end or not. Excercises in trust and doubt, and in reading in what was meant behind what was actually said, are essential elements of a literary interpretation of this story. It's perfectly rational to wonder where to draw those distinctions.
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Old 2010-12-17, 12:46   Link #19862
CrystalStarlight95
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Wow. You guys are really taking this seriously, huh? Absolutely no offense (as in, don't get mad at me D:], but please cool it, take some chill pills, aren't we just supposed to discuss theories and what-not? Let's just talk normally, okay? Umineko is just a game, I don't want everybody arguing about the ways they think and speculate. I know I'm sounding so cheesy right now, just calm down, people...
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Old 2010-12-17, 12:57   Link #19863
Renall
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We're always like this, don't worry.
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Old 2010-12-17, 14:48   Link #19864
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Who says Zepar and Furfur are trustworthy, again? Just who do they really work for? I'm immediately suspicious of people popping in out of nowhere with brand new rules and requirements and assuring me that things have to turn out a particular way. They fought each other because they were desperate to take that final step. Shannon wins, but Kanon winds up "earning" his reward anyway. And Beatrice comes back in full force. By any indications, the premise Zepar and Furfur present is wrong (although they may well have intended that; it's fairly clear the two of them present a divide between what they say and what they mean).
They work for Beatrice, so we can probably trust them.

And also, Kanon only received his reward in the Golden Land. Which they said was an option from the beginning. Everyone is fighting for the right to have their love fulfilled in the real world.

Quote:
The Golden Land thing is completely irrelevant because... that's just how it happens anyway. Nobody actually wins anything before the story reaches its climax, at which point it doesn't matter who won because everybody wins. They were never in the "real world" to begin with. The story is playing a shell game.
That's true, but that's because things go totally bad in 1986. Strip away the magic stuff, and what would this Love Duel mean in the context of the real 1986?

Quote:
AuraTwilight said you're not really "denying Shkanon because you think clumping them together as a convenient plot tool is really disrespectful towards Shannon and Kanon as people"
That's not what I said.
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Old 2010-12-17, 14:58   Link #19865
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It might have other meanings, but in the context of Kanon and Shannon character development, it basically wouldn't matter unless two people named Kanon and Shannon actually existed on R-Prime... which I don't think is anyone's thesis at this point, and if it were, would require an entirely different sort of reading.

If it metaphorically represents a conflict Yasu actually had, that's fine too. I'm just not specifically addressing that, as with respect to Kanon and Shannon as fictional characters (regardless of any "true" existence in whatever form), they serve as representatives in the metaphor, rather than the actual aspects of the conflict itself. Which is to say, they don't matter as concerns the two servant characters as they appear in the fictions we've read, which is where they've gained development and "become human." It's like asking what Erika's disappearance means about the fate of Furudo-Prime. It's two different discussions that we'd have to examine thematically. Which I haven't done.
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Old 2010-12-17, 15:50   Link #19866
CrystalStarlight95
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What if one day a girl named Yasu decided to write a mystery novel? She loved it so much she decided to add magic? Then she went crazy and began to imagine herself in the story. People she knew of were were ones characters were based on. To escape her horrible life, she "put" herself in the story as a woman named Beatrice. I bet at the end of EP8 Yasu will be in a mental hospital, trapped in her own "logic error".

I will literally laugh if that is the case.
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:05   Link #19867
Keriaku
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If it metaphorically represents a conflict Yasu actually had, that's fine too. I'm just not specifically addressing that, as with respect to Kanon and Shannon as fictional characters (regardless of any "true" existence in whatever form), they serve as representatives in the metaphor, rather than the actual aspects of the conflict itself. Which is to say, they don't matter as concerns the two servant characters as they appear in the fictions we've read, which is where they've gained development and "become human." It's like asking what Erika's disappearance means about the fate of Furudo-Prime. It's two different discussions that we'd have to examine thematically. Which I haven't done.
This is something I've found very true of Umineko. Originally it shows us so many different things in a melting pot, and when you try to examine and/or discuss it, the different layers, themes and matters all get muddled. There's the mystery, the meta world, the characters, the presentation, and this is all before getting into any kind of themes, symbolism or character development. Then to try to explain your perspective or theory on two or more of these thing combined, it becomes a very difficult task.

This is one general problem I've found with putting everything into one 'speculation' thread, but that's a different issue.
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:16   Link #19868
TehChron
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Sorry, I'm entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you trying to argue that the Shkanon thing is being "pushed by Battler" and thus discrediting it, just like small bombs was clearly bullshit because it was an answer we were being given instead of left to figure out?

I'm not sure it's properly comparable, since the Love Duel is pretty much half of the entire goddamn episode's plot, and EP6 is "a confession", not meant to have much difficulty.

@LyricalAura: EXACTLY.
Yes, but wasn't most of the plot of Episode 5 spent discrediting the "Natsuhi is the culprit" theory? If we can accept the possibility of Ryukishi being lazy enough to treat aspects of the Chiru arcs as filler with additional hints thrown in, it's not an outlandish conclusion.

And Episode 5 was meant to be incredibly easy as well, wasn't it?
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:54   Link #19869
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not what I said.
...Hu...h...?

What I said with
Quote:
Renall is denying Shkanon based on the fact that they have development, that they each have the right to exist as characters(ninja EDIT: or, humans as he put it) in the fiction, cmiiw
and
Quote:
denying Shkanon because you think clumping them together as a convenient plot tool is really disrespectful towards Shannon and Kanon as people
do they really have different meanings and implications? If they do then I'm sorry, but actually I meant to imply the latter in the earlier, //regardless of whether this is what actually Renall meant or not//. So what did you really deny in this first reply of yours?
Quote:
...That's not really what he's getting at whatsoever.
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Old 2010-12-17, 17:28   Link #19870
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I've never understood the whole difficulty rating in Umineko, it starts as "just watch" to "just surrender" and gets progressively "easier" until EP7 where it goes back up. I have a general idea that its the amount of hints given out on those arcs would make it far easier to solve the previous arcs and the people that already had solved it or had a good idea of how the events where really being played out where just corroborating what they already new. How did EP7 change that?
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Old 2010-12-17, 17:42   Link #19871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
...Hu...h...?

What I said with
and
do they really have different meanings and implications? If they do then I'm sorry, but actually I meant to imply the latter in the earlier, //regardless of whether this is what actually Renall meant or not//. So what did you really deny in this first reply of yours?
read this part

Quote:
Shannon and Kanon are furniture. Furniture attends to the needs of the witch and serves the witch's ends. From the standpoint that the witch is the teller of stories (whether literally or in "magic" terms, or one and the same if you wish), furniture are literary devices that serve the ends of the storyteller.

Shannon and Kanon are created as literal literary furniture, dehumanized pieces put into place to fulfill the needs of the writer. They don't really have backstories, they're servant characters (a traditional utility role), they're given magic powers when it suits (described as human forms created by Kinzo's magic), whatever is required.
I think he's basically saying that they're furniture or fictional characters that served to move the plot forward for the author (the witch). They only existed in the message bottles for this purpose as well as for their respected romantic roles. Theoretically a servant could exist on Rokkenjima prime but in his theory Kanon and Shannon weren't that servant. Since the theory proposes that Shannon and Kanon are fictions Shkanon is also fictional.

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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I've never understood the whole difficulty rating in Umineko, it starts as "just watch" to "just surrender" and gets progressively "easier" until EP7 where it goes back up. I have a general idea that its the amount of hints given out on those arcs would make it far easier to solve the previous arcs and the people that already had solved it or had a good idea of how the events where really being played out where just corroborating what they already new. How did EP7 change that?
The core arcs are reflecting on the difficulty of previous episodes. What you see in the mirror is really the opposite of what you're really seeing correct?

Episode 1's difficulty was "standard" and it went on to episode 2 by being "first rate" which is probably the highest difficulty.

Episode's 5 was 'fairly easy' and it went to episode 6 by having absolutely no difficulty at all.

Episode 3 was made "equal" as in fair for both sides to make it gradually easier for the readers to come to conclusions. Episode 7's difficulty was risen for the opposite reason because you don't need it to be any easier.

Episode 4's difficulty "depended entirely on the player". But episode 8 is not stated to be an opposite of this. So I don't beleive it's a breakdown. The interview states it has choices that some of them will be difficult probably depending on the reader. So rather than being a reflection I think it will be the same difficulty as episode 4.
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Old 2010-12-18, 01:27   Link #19872
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Wow. You guys are really taking this seriously, huh? Absolutely no offense (as in, don't get mad at me D:], but please cool it, take some chill pills, aren't we just supposed to discuss theories and what-not? Let's just talk normally, okay? Umineko is just a game, I don't want everybody arguing about the ways they think and speculate. I know I'm sounding so cheesy right now, just calm down, people...
Don't worry, as Renall said, we've been discussing like this for a long while. And still is not like we hate each other or something.

Wow this could be the start of a new trend: "Don't get the wrong impression! It's not like I hate you or something, Geez!"


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
He said we need to pay attention to them and to what they say. He said what they say is very important and touches on some of the most important themes of the story. That's definitely true. That doesn't mean they are speaking in plain and ordinary truth, and if you think that I can't imagine why given that theatrics is basically their gimmick. It's like trying to untangle Shakespeare. No doubt their words are full of truth. That doesn't follow that their words are necessarily true.
But here we aren't really talking about something that was spoken in riddles... the issue at hand here is the fact that all the couples can be happy in the golden land.
Whatever is its true meaning what we have seen is its realization in the metaworld.
So how can this be a surprise? Of course the metaworld is by itself a metaphorical world. So the fact that it happens in the metaworld means as much as the statement itself, you must interpret it in a certain way. But whatever is your interpretation it must work for both.


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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
In addition to being personally insulting, this is incredibly arrogant and factually incorrect. The evidence is quite subject to interpretation and most of it is clear as mud. If it were crystal, Ryukishi wouldn't be going into ep8 as happy about his work as he is. He thinks he's got something good to end on. If everything were crystal clear, there'd be nothing to surprise us.
We aren't talking about mysteries here, we are talking about narrative facts. What you are denying right now are not stuff that are supposed to be riddles, you are denying basic concepts that you should have understood and accepted by now.

Like for example the importance of semantic in this story: the fact that the actual meaning of a word could have important implications.

And you can't really say that you didn't know that, not after Battler in various occasions asks for the definition of certain concepts. Not after the "names are not exclusive" argument was brought up. Not after Battler declared in red that he would kill Beatrice.

Denying this would be more insulting for your intelligence than for mine.
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Old 2010-12-18, 01:57   Link #19873
AuraTwilight
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Wow this could be the start of a new trend: "Don't get the wrong impression! It's not like I hate you or something, Geez!"
Anti-Tsundere.

Puts up a front about not hating you, but totally does.
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Old 2010-12-18, 02:41   Link #19874
Cross Clown
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To be honest, I think Jan-poo is just looking for a fight. She's being contrary and combative for the sake of being contrary and combative.

Anyways, I agree with Renall on most of his points about themes, narratives, and especially that segment on Kanon and Shannon.

The narrative in Umineko is shaky at best, and as per knox rules, it's only the detectives perspective (Battler & Erika's) that should be trusted.

Aren't we given the whole "cat box" routine with every episode anyways? I'm not sure what Jan-poo is trying to argue with since the narrative in Umineko is something that's only subject to interpretation rather than taking it to heart.
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Old 2010-12-18, 03:54   Link #19875
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I think she (?) is rightfully pressing some points that Renall was either unclear, or unsatisfactory on. From a dramatic standpoint, I can't accept a dismissal of the love duel, even though it makes sense in the context of his theory. Ultimately, the mystery of this story is the concrete, real events that happened on R-Prime. The duel could be a clever Author thing-a-ma-jig, but without concrete relevance to the mystery, I can't see it being as important as Ryukishi says.

I agree with what Renall is saying, for the most part, but I want to see it more integrated into core Rokkenjima. Assuming it's the truth -- how do we interpret it in context of the mystery? I think the love duel holds relevance in this sense, as well, and we shouldn't handwave this aspect of it.
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Old 2010-12-18, 04:26   Link #19876
TehChron
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Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
I think she (?) is rightfully pressing some points that Renall was either unclear, or unsatisfactory on. From a dramatic standpoint, I can't accept a dismissal of the love duel, even though it makes sense in the context of his theory. Ultimately, the mystery of this story is the concrete, real events that happened on R-Prime. The duel could be a clever Author thing-a-ma-jig, but without concrete relevance to the mystery, I can't see it being as important as Ryukishi says.

I agree with what Renall is saying, for the most part, but I want to see it more integrated into core Rokkenjima. Assuming it's the truth -- how do we interpret it in context of the mystery? I think the love duel holds relevance in this sense, as well, and we shouldn't handwave this aspect of it.
Let's take apart the reasons for it, then:

What is it that can't be allowed to occur at the same time? Kanon and Shannon's existence off the island, or just their relationships?

We all know it's the latter, so let's look at it from a different perspective, here. The love duel isn't about Shannon and Kanon personally, but rather, it's about the nature of the relationships they're trying to pursue up until the events of the massacre. One can happen, while the other is doomed to failure.

We already understand the fact that "Shannon" does not exist. We are assuming that "Kanon" is similar in that regard, hence the Shkannon interpretation. Only one can get off the island and live a full life with their loved one. Naturally, this can also mean that, if we discard Ninja Master Yasu as a possibility, the only other interpretation that's applicable would be a more literal one.

Namely that only one of the relationships presented, or even individuals from those relationships, have a chance at surviving the events of the explosion. If we pursue this line of thought, it leads us back to the George-culprit theory (George would kill to be with Shannon, etc etc), which renders Shkannon pointless, and renders "Kanon" as little more than a better developed Genji, in regards to his overall relevance to the actual mystery.

We are told that Yasu and the Love Duel are key. Yasu is a sneaky as hell method of getting past Dine, but you have to really ignore the spirit of Knox in order for her to be the culprit.

On the other hand, Yasu provides motive for Shannon to act in the manner required to set up the events the way she did. Essentially enabling someone she had taken into her confidence to hijack the plan and commit actual murders. The true culprit. This means that either one of her usual prankster confidants (i.e. the servants) would be the result of things going awry (a violation of Dine), or rather, someone else (Jessica or George, for example).

The Love Duel demonstrates that under natural conditions, Jessica does not possess the capacity to kill another human being. George does demonstrate that.

Ugh. Basically, no matter how you approach Yasu and the Love Duel together, the logical conclusion is a George-culprit theory. Rudolf and Kyrie have no bearing on the Love Duel, so unless it's there purely for the sake of beating us over the head with Shkannon (which would be heavy-handed and a blatant insult to readers), it logically has to have something to do with the actual motives for the murders.

Man, that was a lot of rambling. Essentially, all roads lead to George.
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Old 2010-12-18, 04:38   Link #19877
AuraTwilight
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Which is what everyone's been saying since last Epoch. Fuck George, he did it.
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Old 2010-12-18, 04:50   Link #19878
TehChron
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Which is what everyone's been saying since last Epoch. Fuck George, he did it.
Pretty much.

So ultimately, it doesnt really make a difference how Ryukishi intended for us to take the love duel or Yasu, in the end, George is the culprit despite shitty red herrings.
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Old 2010-12-18, 04:56   Link #19879
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You say "shitty red herrings" I say "Listen to Ai no Sengen."
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Old 2010-12-18, 05:09   Link #19880
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You say "shitty red herrings" I say "Listen to Ai no Sengen."
I have never seen the lyrics to that song in English. It's like nobody cared enough about George to translate it.
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