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Old 2010-12-19, 22:06   Link #1641
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
Celebrating festivals didn't cause the states to be broke. Unwise spending from the previous president and coperations stealing from the middle class and poor cause the economy to go down. Festivals can reduce stress we Americans face. Plus, looking how much fun people have in festivals brings up morale.
True, GWB was the most anti-conservative to come out of the GOP, but it's still quite well-known that festivals cost money.
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Old 2010-12-19, 22:15   Link #1642
Sumeragi
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Why do you think that? Most countries have great vacation and sick time while we work ourselves to death here. Any reason not to increase festivals?
You mean those failing European ones?
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Old 2010-12-19, 22:20   Link #1643
ZephyrLeanne
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You mean those failing European ones?
I don't think Sweden or Germany is failing...?
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Old 2010-12-19, 22:29   Link #1644
Knightrunner
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Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
True, GWB was the most anti-conservative to come out of the GOP, but it's still quite well-known that festivals cost money.
Maybe the celebrations can be in a school level. Festivals do not have to cost so much as long as there is somebody willing to figure out the budget and financial resources.

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You mean those failing European ones?
Sweden is successful. I'm not sure about Germany, but I heard they are doing well. Italy may need to improve, but people celebrate at nights and sleep in days.

I wouldn't be quick to critisize them when ours is tremedously failing. They have some systems that actually work such as the medical system.
Here: People are working themselves to Death.
No retirement.
No home.
Family Break-ups
Europe:
There economy may have went down too, but they are not complaining as much.
Less homocide rate too.
Japan:
We can learn a few things from them that can improve our culture.
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Old 2010-12-19, 22:31   Link #1645
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
I don't think Sweden or Germany is failing...?
I always consider Germany as the exception. After all, they're the ones having one of the most unbalanced trade balances around.


And as for comparing Japan: Japan still works more than the US. It isn't about whether you have more holidays or not. It's about productivity and management of time.
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Old 2010-12-25, 23:03   Link #1646
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
It's nowhere near that simple, the reasons for Japan's declining birth rate. After all, it's not the only country that is experiencing this demographic trend — practically every other developed country is seeing fewer babies every year, with Singapore being among those with the lowest fertility rates in the world.
The Japanese should learn from how the Scandinavians do it.

But immigration also plays an important factor. Studies show that countries with more bias against immigrants tends to have the lowest birth rates. However, whether or not the effects are good or bad depends on which immigration policy Japan adheres to.
I was thinking of putting this in the News thread but, since the topic last appeared here, I decided to put it here instead.

Baby shortage a time bomb for ageing Asia
Quote:
Tokyo (Dec 24, Thu): East Asia's booming economies have for years been the envy of the world, but a shortfall in one crucial area — babies — threatens to render yesterday's tigers toothless.

Some of the world's lowest birth rates look set to slash labour forces in Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan, where fewer workers will support more retirees and their ballooning health care and pension costs.

Shuffling along in the vanguard of ageing Asia is Japan, whose population started slowly shrinking three years ago, and where almost a quarter of people are over 65 while children make up just 13 per cent.

On current trends, Japan's population of 127 million will by 2055 shrivel to 90 million, its level when it kicked off its post-war boom in 1955, warned the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research.

Asian population giant China may still be near its prime, with armies of young rural workers flocking to its factories. But, thanks to the 30-year-old one-child policy, its demographic time bomb is also ticking.

"Over the past 50 years, economic and social modernisation in Asia has been accompanied by a remarkable drop in birth rates," the Hawaii-based think-tank the East-West Centre says in a new research paper.

"Gains in education, employment and living standards, combined with dramatic breakthroughs in health and family-planning technology, have led to lower fertility in every country of the region."

China now has 1.6 births per woman, Singapore has 1.2 and South Korea has slightly fewer than 1.1. Taiwan has just 1.03 births per woman.

Core problems
One way to counter declining populations is to allow more immigration, but governments from Singapore to Tokyo have been reluctant to do so.

At the core of the problem, say analysts, have been gender attitudes steeped in Confucian traditions — with men still expecting their wives to handle the childcare and household chores that may not top a modern woman's wish list.

Ms Kim Hye Young, researcher at the Korea Women's Development Institute, said: "The big problem is that South Korean women, compared to men, have too much to lose when getting married in this system.

"This reality makes marriage, let alone having a child, look like a very unattractive option in South Korea, perhaps far more so than in other countries."

In Japan, where women remain woefully under-represented in corporate boardrooms, falling pregnant still all too often spells career death.

"Women are voting with their wombs, refraining from having children because the opportunity costs are so high and rigid employment policies make many of them choose between raising a family or pursuing a career," writes Mr Jeff Kingston, director of Asian Studies at Temple University in Tokyo.

Other factors also play a role, he writes in a new book on contemporary Japan: Many young people — unlike their jobs-for-life fathers — now skip between temporary jobs and lack the financial security to start a family.

Polls in Asia indicate that most people are aware of the threat that silent playgrounds and empty classrooms spell for their greying societies, but remain unlikely to rush to their bedrooms to help avert societal doom.

In Taiwan, a survey of childless workers last month found that 87 per cent thought the declining birth rate was a serious problem, and two thirds worried the result would be a society unable to look after its elderly.

Still, few said they would start making babies to save their island, according to the survey by human resources service 104 Job Bank. Almost two thirds said they did not intend to have any children in future.

AFP
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Old 2010-12-26, 04:33   Link #1647
Sumeragi
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It's sad, I know. But there's a major difference between Japan and Korea when it comes to why women don't want to have babies.

Japan: What's the use of marrying good-for-nothing men when you can live comfortably by yourself? After all, in the current world of herbivore men, it's likely that your husband is the one going to rely on your income. Therefore, be single and happy.

Korea: Why let go of your career by having babies in a highly conservative society where it's nearly mandatory for you to quit once you get pregnant? Never mind all the money that's needed to get your children the best education possible. It's better if you don't sink your life and money in children and just enjoy your life with your husband, going on to live a better retirement.


The selfishness of people tend to make me angry, really. At least I know I wouldn't be one of the kidless girls.
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Old 2010-12-26, 04:41   Link #1648
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It is not that people are selfish, but corperate society is making it harder for the other classes to enjoy life. If kids=career death then why have kids.
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Old 2010-12-26, 06:13   Link #1649
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
It is not that people are selfish, but corperate society is making it harder for the other classes to enjoy life. If kids=career death then why have kids.
Well, the selfish part was aimed more at Japan, although I do include the people who argue "kids cost too much money".

But then, you're talking to a person who loves children and plans to have four.
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Old 2010-12-26, 12:40   Link #1650
ZephyrLeanne
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The way forward, is therefore, automation. In any case, someone HAS to make up for India's and Latin America's population booms.
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Old 2010-12-26, 13:00   Link #1651
demonkevy666
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
It is not that people are selfish, but corperate society is making it harder for the other classes to enjoy life. If kids=career death then why have kids.
illogical.

careers always have an end it's called retirement

dna, and genes will gone on mixing :/
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Old 2010-12-26, 17:46   Link #1652
Knightrunner
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Well, the selfish part was aimed more at Japan, although I do include the people who argue "kids cost too much money".

But then, you're talking to a person who loves children and plans to have four.
I believe children are important too I just hate how society makes it harder for everybody especially for kids.

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Originally Posted by demonkevy666 View Post
illogical.

careers always have an end it's called retirement

dna, and genes will gone on mixing :/
Not illogical. Since people can't retire in this day and age careers can't end. Some people will work until they die unless they get medically terminated. Besides how can anybody have kids when they retire except through adoption?
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Old 2010-12-27, 07:57   Link #1653
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
The way forward, is therefore, automation. In any case, someone HAS to make up for India's and Latin America's population booms.
I don't care about whether the population of India or Latin America goes up. For me, the increasing of Japanese and Koreans is more important.


Quote:
Originally Posted by demonkevy666 View Post
illogical.

careers always have an end it's called retirement

dna, and genes will gone on mixing :/
The problem with "retirement" in this case is that you're forced to quit when you're in your prime, which also happens to be the prime childbearing age.

And what's the thing about DNA/
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:40   Link #1654
dredmorte
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Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
The way forward, is therefore, automation. In any case, someone HAS to make up for India's and Latin America's population booms.
I am sorry if this has nothing to do with what you said, perhaps i read your statement out of context, but in my opinion, automation, robots etc, only increase your productivity. They'll never make you work less. They'll simply create new jobs.

Imagine this, hundreds of years ago, almost everyone worked on agriculture, because a farmer could, if not unlucky, produce only a little more than what he needed for himself. However, when agriculture evolved, in order to feed the whole population, less farmers became necessary, many farmers lost their jobs and eventually got other professions. These professions were simply not viable before.

Sadly, humans beings are willing to work about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for about 60 years. Give or take, no technology will change that a whole lot.
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:54   Link #1655
demonkevy666
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Originally Posted by Knightrunner View Post
I believe children are important too I just hate how society makes it harder for everybody especially for kids.



Not illogical. Since people can't retire in this day and age careers can't end. Some people will work until they die unless they get medically terminated. Besides how can anybody have kids when they retire except through adoption?
because we're not planing ahead
I'm out of school with no girl friend, but have a job. >_>
8 of the people I knew in school all already having kids.
of course I kids too, but I'd rather have a house first and stable place with a wife.
hell some of them aren't even done with school yet, and aregoing to collage.


we can't exactly say that since there are famous people over 40 who are having children, right now ( Mariah Carey, pretty sure she's 40)
they're might be age, where they can't have kids, but I see that's highly impractical for a human. it's all about spreading their genes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I don't care about whether the population of India or Latin America goes up. For me, the increasing of Japanese and Koreans is more important.



The problem with "retirement" in this case is that you're forced to quit when you're in your prime, which also happens to be the prime childbearing age.

And what's the thing about DNA/
that's what sucks the most, it's hard to ever get out of work to live for you own life. Not be a tool for someone else

genes going on when you mate?
you want your genes to be the end of oh I don't know hazel eyes in your family

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Originally Posted by dredmorte View Post
I am sorry if this has nothing to do with what you said, perhaps i read your statement out of context, but in my opinion, automation, robots etc, only increase your productivity. They'll never make you work less. They'll simply create new jobs.

Imagine this, hundreds of years ago, almost everyone worked on agriculture, because a farmer could, if not unlucky, produce only a little more than what he needed for himself. However, when agriculture evolved, in order to feed the whole population, less farmers became necessary, many farmers lost their jobs and eventually got other professions. These professions were simply not viable before.

Sadly, humans beings are willing to work about 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for about 60 years. Give or take, no technology will change that a whole lot.
robots suck, were almost already like robots now lol
about the farmers less farmers meant cheaper food, but I can't think what good that really did.
Inflation just took that away in the end :/
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Old 2010-12-27, 12:31   Link #1656
Vexx
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You can boil Japan's issues (and to some extent other asian countries) to this:
1) corporate policy and culture that are supremely unfriendly to family life, male or female. You'd think the nationalism would override the "work to death" bullshit.
2) A quiet feminism that allowed women into the workplace (though with low ceilings) .. .but the guys are largely "not on the same page" about sharing family duties.
3) The ridiculous expectation deriving from "1" and "2" that women quit when they have kids. The corporations have taken job security away (following anti-community business concepts from the US) -- so two income families are a basic requirement now.
4) Responses of the absurd:
a) Crusty bastards who want to pretend its still "the old days" in regard to women.
b) Herby males who simply run away and hide into 2-D world.
c) A small fraction of males who are actually adapting to the new situation (yay for them).
d) The growing faction of women who just say "go to hell" rather than work on the problems of "a" and "b" (or find someone from the "c" response).

Its kind of sad to watch because it really is fixable but for an abundance of intransigence.
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Old 2010-12-27, 12:44   Link #1657
ZephyrLeanne
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The Confucian ethic card comes into play here. Most reasons above, with the exception of women's status and rank in the labor force, can also be applied to South Korea and Taiwan.

The only other country witb such drastically low birth rates, Singapore, suffers from another Confucian-related idea. But unlike the other nations, whose problem is women's status, Singapore people are sandwiched - caring for both parents and children.
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Old 2010-12-27, 17:02   Link #1658
Knightrunner
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You can boil Japan's issues (and to some extent other asian countries) to this:
1) corporate policy and culture that are supremely unfriendly to family life, male or female. You'd think the nationalism would override the "work to death" bullshit.
2) A quiet feminism that allowed women into the workplace (though with low ceilings) .. .but the guys are largely "not on the same page" about sharing family duties.
3) The ridiculous expectation deriving from "1" and "2" that women quit when they have kids. The corporations have taken job security away (following anti-community business concepts from the US) -- so two income families are a basic requirement now.
4) Responses of the absurd:
a) Crusty bastards who want to pretend its still "the old days" in regard to women.
b) Herby males who simply run away and hide into 2-D world.
c) A small fraction of males who are actually adapting to the new situation (yay for them).
d) The growing faction of women who just say "go to hell" rather than work on the problems of "a" and "b" (or find someone from the "c" response).

Its kind of sad to watch because it really is fixable but for an abundance of intransigence.
b) What is wrong with the herby males who run to the 2-D world .

Vexx pretty much summed up some of the problems we all face around the world I would emphasize the classes, corruption, and how people blind for people not to see these problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demonkevy666 View Post
because we're not planing ahead
I'm out of school with no girl friend, but have a job. >_>
8 of the people I knew in school all already having kids.
of course I kids too, but I'd rather have a house first and stable place with a wife.
hell some of them aren't even done with school yet, and aregoing to collage.


we can't exactly say that since there are famous people over 40 who are having children, right now ( Mariah Carey, pretty sure she's 40)
they're might be age, where they can't have kids, but I see that's highly impractical for a human. it's all about spreading their genes on.

Even if we plan ahead we still can't cushion ourselves into security. I planned ahead and I don't feel like there is much progress coming from it. My high school classmates (top 10%) planned ahead and they are in debt up to there rear from college expenses. It is tough to get a job. It is tough to get an education anywhere. It is tough to maintain a job. It is tough to secure retirement (especially after the 401K; I can't imagine the Japanese retirement system to be any better). It is tough to raise children. Life is getting tougher than it ever has been.

Being pregnant at 40 years old puts both the mother and baby at risk for many complications. There is a 1/100 chance of the child having Down Syndrome and usually down syndrome can associate itself with many other problems such as heart conditions and spinal cord seperation (reason why they can play contact sports). If a person is pregnant at age 40 there is a 25% chance of miscarriage. Those are just the few problems being pregnant later in life. A rich person can afford better medical and fertility treatment compared to us average folk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
The Confucian ethic card comes into play here. Most reasons above, with the exception of women's status and rank in the labor force, can also be applied to South Korea and Taiwan.

The only other country witb such drastically low birth rates, Singapore, suffers from another Confucian-related idea. But unlike the other nations, whose problem is women's status, Singapore people are sandwiched - caring for both parents and children.
What is the Confucian ethic card?
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:40   Link #1659
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
4) Responses of the absurd:
a) Crusty bastards who want to pretend its still "the old days" in regard to women.
b) Herby males who simply run away and hide into 2-D world.
c) A small fraction of males who are actually adapting to the new situation (yay for them).
d) The growing faction of women who just say "go to hell" rather than work on the problems of "a" and "b" (or find someone from the "c" response).

Its kind of sad to watch because it really is fixable but for an abundance of intransigence.
I don't think that Herbivore males and the retreat into 2D are so much due to traditional expectations of women as the traditional expectations of men, actually. To be specific, it's because there's a conflict between the expectation that a man should be a breadwinner and economic reality. I can't imagine that its coincidence that these guys - who are supposedly extremely short on self confidence - started to appear after the Japanese economy had been shit for a while.

You've mentioned before how most anime romances never seem to mention the characters' career goals - I imagine this is in large part because its an extremely touchy subject for many.
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Old 2010-12-27, 21:02   Link #1660
yezhanquan
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrLeanne View Post
The Confucian ethic card comes into play here. Most reasons above, with the exception of women's status and rank in the labor force, can also be applied to South Korea and Taiwan.

The only other country witb such drastically low birth rates, Singapore, suffers from another Confucian-related idea. But unlike the other nations, whose problem is women's status, Singapore people are sandwiched - caring for both parents and children.
As a single fellow, I personally don't see myself having a family of my own. Yes, it's to avoid the sandwich, but also due to the nature of my work, I am not averse to having foreigners in my land. In Singapore, almost everyone's ancestor was once a foreigner.

I don't mind doing household chores, but to a mom who had spent her youth as a maid in households, your standards are never there, and you get an earful for your troubles.
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