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Old 2010-12-20, 04:33   Link #20041
Kylon99
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Actually, violence begetting violence seemed to have been one of the themes people were talking about early on in Umineko.

Especially in those scenes where Rosa slaps Maria around.

We were discussing how both Higurashi and Umineko brought up the idea of, "Why do good people do the bad things they do?" etc...
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:44   Link #20042
witchfan
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Umineko: surely. But I don't think Higurashi did. Yes, they explained the villain's motives, but I don't recall it being a whydunnit. The villain was revealed abruptly, at a point we didn't know much about her at all.
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:44   Link #20043
crazysjd89
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Spoiler for Higurashi:
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Old 2010-12-20, 04:53   Link #20044
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
Umineko: surely. But I don't think Higurashi did. Yes, they explained the villain's motives, but I don't recall it being a whydunnit. The villain was revealed abruptly, at a point we didn't know much about her at all.
But Matsuribayashi spends its first half explaining the villain's motive, the whydunnit. In all, I think she comes off as rather sympathetic...
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:02   Link #20045
Kirroha
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Yep. Umineko probably won't reveal the truth as abruptly as Higurashi did though, since that's what Ryuukishi was trying to aim for.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:05   Link #20046
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
If it is, it means that it is impossible to read Umineko without reading Higurashi first. But Umineko is not a sequel, it is a separate story altogether. So unless Umineko is planning to elaborate on Bern's fate all over again...
"Directly connected" does not mean "Directly relevant."

Quote:
If that is so, why would Higurashi be a novel in Uminekoverse?
Do you know what it means for something to be meta-fiction?
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:14   Link #20047
Kirroha
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I don't. Intrigue me.

Anyway, ditto this:

Quote:
This is why people tend to disregard connections between Higurashi and Umineko as humourus fanservice. If you're familiar with most of Higurashi, you can catch plenty of silly little connections between the two series, from the Higurashi mystery novel to how Furfur and Zepar's outfits resemble the Angel Mort uniforms from Higurashi. Because there's plenty of pointless connections like these, people have are more reluctant to theorize about serious connections, like Bernkastel = Frederica and such.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:24   Link #20048
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...WHAT?

Are... are you seriously claiming that what he said isn't true? Are you seriously denying 100+ years of psychological research that has brought us to those kind of conclusions?

Where the fuck are you from? Where do you have to live to not hear the stories about how child molesters were often molested themselves, or how psychopaths weren't loved enough as children?

How can you deny that people might have REASONS for doing evil things?

I... I need to lie down.
I was taking offense to his absolute statement inferring victim's psychological reactions to their trauma.

I didn't claim it wasn't true, I simply demanded clarification for what sounded like something deeply absurd. You do need to lie down.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:33   Link #20049
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
I was taking offense to his absolute statement inferring victim's psychological reactions to their trauma.
Of course not all rapists and murderers were diddled by the local vicar when they were children, and not all children diddled by local vicars grow up to be rapists and murderers. He wasn't implying that, I don't see how you could think he was, and furthermore don't see how such a claim demands proof.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:40   Link #20050
Thunder Book
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Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that all rape victims will always automatically become rapists. I apologize if there was confusion.
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Old 2010-12-20, 05:57   Link #20051
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Of course not all rapists and murderers were diddled by the local vicar when they were children, and not all children diddled by local vicars grow up to be rapists and murderers. He wasn't implying that, I don't see how you could think he was, and furthermore don't see how such a claim demands proof.
Is that so? I was asking for proof of the claim he was making, which was stated as an absolute fact.
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When people tend to be harmed in some significant way (Let's use rape as an example), they intend to inflict that pain on others to get that sense of whatever was taken from them back. Rape victims have a high tend tendency to become rapists themselves because they can become so psychologically tormented and confused that they just don't think straightly anymore and feel the need to do these things to people
I'll acknowledge my own ignorance of the subject, so I'll leave that there and leave you to figure out your own error. This is off-topic, anyway.
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Old 2010-12-20, 06:40   Link #20052
Kirroha
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That situation seems to apply to a handful of people in Umineko.
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Old 2010-12-20, 08:09   Link #20053
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Actually, violence begetting violence seemed to have been one of the themes people were talking about early on in Umineko.

Especially in those scenes where Rosa slaps Maria around.

We were discussing how both Higurashi and Umineko brought up the idea of, "Why do good people do the bad things they do?" etc...

Thanx for bringing up Rosa, I'll use her an example to show

Why Rosa isn't evil and why Bern is evil.


They both have a troubled past, and we know that in both cases their past affects their current behavior.


However Rosa doesn't feel any real pleasure in tormenting her daughter, in the end she feels terrible whenever she acts like a bad mama, she just can't help it.

Bern however doesn't show any sign of guilt, she doesn't show any sign of compassion, she doesn't show any sign of comprehension, she doesn't show any sign of repentance, and more importantly she finds pleasure in what she does, she knows that it's evil and she's perfectly fine with that.
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Old 2010-12-20, 08:51   Link #20054
witchfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But Matsuribayashi spends its first half explaining the villain's motive, the whydunnit. In all, I think she comes off as rather sympathetic...
Every good mystery novel has an explanation of the motive. But a whydunit is a puzzle about the reason the culprit did what he did. Higurashi was not a whydunit, because we had no (or few) hints regarding the villain's motives before a straight out confession in Matsuribayashi. Umineko is presumably a whydunit. A good way to check whether a novel is a whydunit: reread it until right before the point you're given the answer. If, in retrospect, the motive was obvious: it's a whydunit.

Another important difference is that, in Higurashi, characters who commit crimes are either portrayed as evil (in the main villain's case - sympathetic, yes, but evil) or deranged/terrified (the friends, depending on the arc). In the main villain's case, it's never hinted we should even ask "why she did it" until near the end. In the friend's case, we ask not "why they did it" but rather "what they are hiding" until we figure out
Spoiler for Higurashi:
. The motive was never an important theme.

Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-20 at 09:09.
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Old 2010-12-20, 11:17   Link #20055
MetalGearFlaccid
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Without seeming like a troll, might I remind those who are arguing about connections between Higurashi and Umineko that they are both part of "When they Cry", a series in itself? (inb4 Final Fantasy) If nothing else, they probably exist in the same metaverse. I don't mean that there has to be a connection, though.
That's like saying that the Jack the Ripper murders directly correlate to the Zodiac murders. They both happened in our world, but that does not mean that they have any other connection to each other.
Then again, I'm not denying a connection either. I'm one of those hopefuls who want to see Rika and Bern connected explicitly.
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Last edited by MetalGearFlaccid; 2010-12-20 at 12:44.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:29   Link #20056
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGearFlaccid View Post
Then again, I'm not denying a connection either. I'm one of those hopefuls who want to see Rika and Bern connected explicitly.
I'll say it as many times as I have to. They're not.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...2&postcount=10
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:43   Link #20057
Pika_power
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This is why Bernkastel is evil.
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Old 2010-12-20, 14:45   Link #20058
Ssol
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Ange would have had a much better life with Eva as a mother figure.

Bernkastel does all of this just because she’s bored? She enjoys torturing Ange.

She enjoys torturing Beatrice just as much. Beatrice, who stole Battler away...

Sometimes I wonder...
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Old 2010-12-20, 14:52   Link #20059
witchfan
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'll say it as many times as I have to. They're not.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...2&postcount=10
They're not the same. But I'm sure Frederica Bernkastel and Rika are connected. From what I remember, Frederica is supposedly an entity that has all the memories from the various "Rikas" in different worlds (Rika is not actually resurrected and sent to the past; her memories are just transferred to another Rika in a different Fragment). Rika even explicitly refers to herself as Bernakstel in Rei ("Maybe it's time to stop playing the part of the witch Bernkastel...", or something like that).
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:47   Link #20060
CrystalStarlight95
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Here's something I've been thinking of while I was unloading the dishwasher. It'd have to go over the theory that Higurashi and Umineko are in the same universe, but maybe this will probably help out with other theories and what-not.

Spoiler for Bernkastel = Very lengthy.:


Lol, really stupid theory above. Be very afraid. xD
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