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Old 2010-12-20, 19:53   Link #20081
zorahk
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Quote:
pointed out blatantly that they are both identities of Yasu.
are ep. 6 and 7 not obvious enough for you? seriously anyone still arguing against shkannon at this point is beating a dead horse.
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Old 2010-12-20, 19:59   Link #20082
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You won't win a debate by throwing an argument based on the assumption that your opponent is wrong. Bern is a fictional character, she was a piece, so the comparison work.
Jan-Poo. I have to ask for you to provide the quote that says Bern was a piece. I think you might be refering to something in episode 6?

Here are quotes from the first two games:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern, Episode 1
In the past, when I had a human body, it took me a hundred years to notice this much. This is my meager farewell gift to you, the pitiful one captured by Beato. It's just like a spoon.
So are you asserting that Bern did not have a human body? If so, you are going against the words of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern, Episode 2
Beato saw through me, so I'll confess. You are now just like I was in the past, when I was imprisoned inside Lambda's world. Shut inside a labyrinth of cruel fate, tormented by a witch, in a manner of speaking.

I am a witch who was born from there.
Now, I know what you will probably say. The details regarding this 'game' don't match what was said in episode 6. All I'm asking for is where you are getting the notion that Bern was a piece. If you can provide the quote then I stand corrected.

For now, I agree with AuraTwilight:
"Bernkastel, a witch from outside of Beatrice's imagination, whom has her own consciousness and free will. "
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Old 2010-12-20, 20:08   Link #20083
Boxturtle
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Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
are ep. 6 and 7 not obvious enough for you? seriously anyone still arguing against shkannon at this point is beating a dead horse.
Depends on how much faith you put into the representations of those in the chapter sections. Obviously bits like Yasu becoming the Witch Beatrice were representations of her developing that alternate personality, or the bits with Gaap were obviously just Yasu's view on things, so how much of it was just a representation?
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Old 2010-12-20, 20:34   Link #20084
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Boxturtle View Post
I actually have a personal theory that Kanon and Shannon are still separate people and that only Kanon is Beatrice. It's not like it wouldn't surprise me if they were the same person, but I'll keep arguing the theory until it's pointed out blatantly that they are both identities of Yasu.
How blatant does it have to be?
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:15   Link #20085
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
You won't win a debate by throwing an argument based on the assumption that your opponent is wrong. Bern is a fictional character, she was a piece, so the comparison work.
Oh, but she's not a piece now, and since you're denying the Rika connection, how can we say Bern was ever a fictional character? Moreover, fictional characters and pieces are not synonymous.

Quote:
She's got a kitty tail, you fail.
Ah, but that's because she's Schroedinger's Cat, like I said. She doesn't have ears like Siesta, you see?

This is what we get to if we follow your broken form of logic.

Quote:
Oh come on! Talking about cat boxes doesn't make you cat! If anything is a catbox that's Beatrice's game. And who was the schroedinger cat in Ep7? Bern? Bullshit. Yasu and Lion were. And yet I haven't seen any cat tail on them.

Quote me any part that directly compares Bern to the schroedinger cat, then we can talk.
Oh, so directly referencing Schroedinger's Cat doesn't count, but being metaphorically compared to a cat by a witch who drops religious symbolism does?

Moreover, you completely missed what I was talking about.

BTW, if you're denying Shkanon, then Kanon can never be Beatrice, since Shannon and Beatrice being the same is so fucking absolutely clear it's not even up for debate anymore.
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:21   Link #20086
Judoh
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I don't think Bern's ever literally been a cat. It's a Motif. Like Beato's Butterflies. And Battler's Hatstand "spear".
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Old 2010-12-20, 21:34   Link #20087
AuraTwilight
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Not to mention the scene Jan-Poo is referencing is highly metaphorical. I mean, unless Featherine literally taught Bern the taste of meat and Bern decided to turn evil because of all those wasted years as a vegetarian or something...
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:36   Link #20088
CrystalStarlight95
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I just finished watching EP7. It was pretty awesome since (most) things were explained such as the answer to the epitaph and the culprit and the motive and stuff.
Now I'm upset, I have to wait another several months for the translation of the 8th game. Darn, people will be givin' out spoilers everywhere xD

Back to topic. Does anyone think there really is magic in the Uminekoverse? Or is it just...people's minds? I mean, does anyone think, or is there any evidence, that Bernkastel is a normal witch who discovered Yasu's...erm...illusions and decided to take part? So many answered yet unanswered questions. Personally, I don't give a shit about her past anyway, but it'd still be fun to know XD
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Old 2010-12-20, 23:47   Link #20089
AuraTwilight
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I'm willing to accept that the Meta-World and stuff is real, but in Rokkenjima's world, there is no magic. Maybe magic can exist in other kakera, like the Higurashi world, but not in this one.
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Old 2010-12-21, 00:35   Link #20090
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95 View Post
Now I'm upset, I have to wait another several months for the translation of the 8th game. Darn, people will be givin' out spoilers everywhere xD
Just do what I did for Episode 7, and what I'm going to do for Episode 8. Isolate myself from this entire forum until the English patch is out. I was spoiler-free, and loved it.

Quote:
Back to topic. Does anyone think there really is magic in the Uminekoverse? Or is it just...people's minds? I mean, does anyone think, or is there any evidence, that Bernkastel is a normal witch who discovered Yasu's...erm...illusions and decided to take part? So many answered yet unanswered questions.
Of course magic exists. I remember covering this back before Episode 7 came out. Magic is just another way to decribe an event that happens, where the truth of what happens is unknown. Gaap did a decent job of explaining how all mystery novels can become fantasy stories of the witch's domain in Episode 7 as well. It's a truth that is either undefinable as a truth or a lie, or a truth that is accepted by everyone as the truth, regardless of if it is or not.
That is magic.
Of course, then there are the more confusing possible fantasy elements of Bern, Lambda, Dlanor, Will, etc., which whether they are truly capable of using fantasy magic, or are just another part of the delusions of Yasu's ridiculously crowded head, is up to debate. There's no concrete evidence of either side, so feel free to side with whichever one you like best.

Quote:
Personally, I don't give a shit about her past anyway, but it'd still be fun to know XD
Isn't that a bit contradictory...?
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Old 2010-12-21, 00:52   Link #20091
witchfan
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Originally Posted by zorahk View Post
are ep. 6 and 7 not obvious enough for you? seriously anyone still arguing against shkannon at this point is beating a dead horse.
It's still possible to argue they separate people (see: A Certain Cook's Notes). We just know "Shannon" and "Kanon" are connected in some ways. The only thing we can really say for certain is that, in some of the letter bottles, Kanon and Shannon (or one of them) do not count as "people". Earlier I brought up the possibility that Kanon existed, died prior to the crime in Beatrice's four games, but lived in EP5-6 (EP5 being the only episode where he actually was on the island). The only Shkanon variation I know of, that's almost certainly true, is fictional Shkanon, and that: only for EP1-4.
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:02   Link #20092
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Just do what I did for Episode 7, and what I'm going to do for Episode 8. Isolate myself from this entire forum until the English patch is out. I was spoiler-free, and loved it.
You have 11 days left. 8)

About Kanon, some people were saying that he was too young since he was 16 and Shannon, Beatrice, Battler... basically the important age was 19. But then now we're presented with a Yasu that was written down as 16, and probably appearing to be 16 (possibly due to hormone deficiency from his/her injury?) but is actually 19 years old...
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:08   Link #20093
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You have 11 days left. 8)
Tell me about it... At least I'll get to argue the details Ryuukishi's said he won't confirm or deny when it's all over.
Or learn how to read Kanji and just read the damn Episode when it comes out.
Yeah right.

Quote:
About Kanon, some people were saying that he was too young since he was 16 and Shannon, Beatrice, Battler... basically the important age was 19. But then now we're presented with a Yasu that was written down as 16, and probably appearing to be 16 (possibly due to hormone deficiency from his/her injury?) but is actually 19 years old...
...
Wait... discounting Shkanon (my favourite thing to do), that means that Shannon is known to be nineteen years of age... which contradicts how Yasu is supposed to be pretending to be sixteen years, three years younger than her actual age. But Yasu = Shannon. So why do people know that Shannon is nineteen, when they should figure that she is sixteen...?
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:11   Link #20094
Kirroha
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Huh? Shannon is known to be sixteen, since Ep1.
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:13   Link #20095
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Huh? Shannon is known to be sixteen, since Ep1.
Really? It's been ages since I read Episode 1, so I was just running off of what Kylon said... or what I thought he was trying to say. I'm not too sure anymore.
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:27   Link #20096
Kirroha
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In Ep1, Battler's monologue said that Shannon has been working for the Ushiromiya family since she was six, and has been working for ten years until now.
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Old 2010-12-21, 01:31   Link #20097
Raiza Sunozaki
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
In Ep1, Battler's monologue said that Shannon has been working for the Ushiromiya family since she was six, and has been working for ten years until now.
Yeah, I remember now, after kicking my brain in the ass and getting it to start thinking again. Well, that clears up that momentary logic bump.
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Old 2010-12-21, 02:00   Link #20098
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Huh? Shannon is known to be sixteen, since Ep1.
Ohhh.. right, I forgot. Shannon was said to be younger than Battler and *Jessica*... And wait, what was Kanon's age again?


By the way, I finally finished the Tea Party on Saturday, having gone through the entire EP7 prior to that in Japanese instead. So I was mostly going by what people were saying on here and leaving my comments out. But now that I've read it, it appears to me this:


I think the idea that people have said the Tea Party is Eva's perspective on the events has some merit. And that EvaB is the Game master, due to her tag line being heard by Lion and Ange.

However, this is what I think. Bernkastel harvested Eva's *biased* perspective in which Eva mis-characterizes Kyrie and Rudolf to a large degree. George is portrayed as innocent (although... hmm.. that scene of him saying how jealous he was was pretty damn suspicious, maybe that was a patched-in source from somewhere else...) But I think as a confession of sorts, she acknowledges that she killed Natsuhi first, although she softens it by saying that was 'an accident.'

I assume what happened in Rokkenjima Prime was that Eva may have published her memoirs posthumously and people now take what she said as nearly the 'flat out truth.' It is so powerful a tale that the real truth maybe being drowned out. And it may take Ange or Battler, or whoever's left to sort it all out again.

Another reason why I think it was Eva's biased point of view, rather than a mystery or another game was that Will's rules seem to be totally ineffective. Although we weren't shown the battle between Will and Bern, it seemed Bern had absolutely no injuries. What I'm thinking is that a 'biased point of view' is not a mystery. The Tea Party was not a mystery and did not conform to any rules, Knox or Dine. And this is why Bern was absolutely confident when she indicated to Will that none of his attacks will hit her. (She was still responsible for putting forth this story though, so if it had been a mystery she would've been in trouble.)
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Old 2010-12-21, 02:32   Link #20099
Kirroha
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Kanon's age is surprisingly also said to be 16. Which is one of the reasons why Shkanon is so widespread from the beginning.

We can assume that people believe Shannon to be simply a few months older than Kanon, or that Kanon just thinks of Shannon as an older sister.
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Old 2010-12-21, 03:40   Link #20100
Nero Allelujah
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Hence why the real master's age of Rokkenjima was said to be 19. Shannon was forced to lie about being younger, and then solved the epitaph, and at the point, Kinzo could've really died due to this, making her the master.

Just a weird thought...19-6= 13, this is the real age that Battler made the promise with her, so I find it really weird that she thought she could buy an apartment at this sort of age and move out and live with Battler and whatnot. Even if we say she was young, I find this disturbing.

Even worse would be this...at the time she believed to be 10 years old...even worse..
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