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Old 2010-12-22, 00:17   Link #41
Falkor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
**snip**
Deen sinking to even lower lows than I thought they were capable of apparently. A Yaoi? Give me a fucking break.
**snip**
I won't question your ways of choosing what you want to watch, but your comment is borderline homophobic and ridiculously condescending.

did you just deem a show bad just because of a picture, a little summary, and the theme of the work? there's something about your superior attitude that's getting annoying.
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:39   Link #42
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Well, to be fair, I don't think Reckoner's being homophobic. Anime portrayals of homosexuals frequently borders on homophobic itself, and actually I often dislike Yaoi and Yuri because many of those shows feels quite insulting. Not anything specific to anime either; I just think media portrayal of gays and lesbians is less than flattering more often than not.

Of course, this is just due to my own experience, which is admittingly limited. But it is certainly possible to dislike a fictional portrayal of a group without being malicously prejudiced.

It also does not help that Deen is doing it, as that is regarded by some as a fairly poor studio which may make it come off as even worse.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:53   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
I won't question your ways of choosing what you want to watch, but your comment is borderline homophobic and ridiculously condescending.

did you just deem a show bad just because of a picture, a little summary, and the theme of the work? there's something about your superior attitude that's getting annoying.
I think Archon made enough points about Yayoi anime to get what I think across.

Anyhow. We're talking about DEEN here. The failure among failures of anime studios today. Need I point out the travesty that is UBW? Umineko anybody?

An already poorly portrayed type of anime being done by a studio that is already by all standards now a horrible studio, makes me shudder to say the least.

And honestly, calling me borderline homophobic and condescending?

I'm not sure how you got that from my post when a) I never said anything about homosexuals, and b) never made any remarks about other people in my post.

Please note that I can only act superior to other people if I talk about other people, which I did not.
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Old 2010-12-22, 01:15   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Another lackluster Spring season.

Are the companies even trying anymore?

Maybe the production IG show may be good. Will check out 2nd season of World Only God Knows.

Deen sinking to even lower lows than I thought they were capable of apparently. A Yaoi? Give me a fucking break.

Where are the anime epics? Where are the actual inventive shows?

Terrible. Absolutely terrible. 2010 was a very bad year for anime. 2011 doesn't seem to be starting out so hot either.
Did you check out Gundam Unicorn Part's 1 and 2? They kind of made the year for me honestly.
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Old 2010-12-22, 01:36   Link #45
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Shiki as well as Panty + Stocking with Garterbelt were both very good anime from 2010. Far as this coming spring looks like ~4 or so caught my attention which is actually good since the first like 2-3 rows were all busts on my attention meter.
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Old 2010-12-22, 02:06   Link #46
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How is this season bad? Honestly, I thought even this winter season is exceptionally good compare to the whole 2010 releases.

Moe >>>>>>>>>> Macho

@Reckoner:
About DEEN, they've already touched numerous yaoi's like years before anyway... Junjou Romantica, anyone? >_>
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Old 2010-12-22, 02:08   Link #47
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It also does not help that Deen is doing it, as that is regarded by some as a fairly poor studio which may make it come off as even worse.
Surprisingly, Deen has been the most successful studio with the fujoshi market. While I know nothing about the quality of those shows (will give them the benefit of the doubt for now, although I'd expect production values to be relatively low), they've been scoring hit after hit with Junjou Romantica, Hetalia, and Hakuoki, which is why the industry entrusts them with so many of those projects.

Whether they deserve it or not, they've clearly found their niche.
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Old 2010-12-22, 02:20   Link #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
Surprisingly, Deen has been the most successful studio with the fujoshi market. While I know nothing about the quality of those shows (will give them the benefit of the doubt for now, although I'd expect production values to be relatively low), they've been scoring hit after hit with Junjou Romantica, Hetalia, and Hakuoki, which is why the industry entrusts them with so many of those projects.

Whether they deserve it or not, they've clearly found their niche.
Ahh, interesting. I was mostly thinking about production values for the most part.
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Old 2010-12-22, 02:33   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Well, to be fair, I don't think Reckoner's being homophobic. Anime portrayals of homosexuals frequently borders on homophobic itself, and actually I often dislike Yaoi and Yuri because many of those shows feels quite insulting. Not anything specific to anime either; I just think media portrayal of gays and lesbians is less than flattering more often than not.

Of course, this is just due to my own experience, which is admittingly limited. But it is certainly possible to dislike a fictional portrayal of a group without being malicously prejudiced.

It also does not help that Deen is doing it, as that is regarded by some as a fairly poor studio which may make it come off as even worse.

Just my 2 cents.
my problem is how the person cherrypicked a theme (or should we say genre (?)) and made mockery of it. if a work deals with same sex relationships, should we make the assumption it is going to fail, based on a summary, a picture, and without actually watching the show itself? the latter comes off as a superior attitude.

so DEEN is doing the work and had not had a well perceived output as of late? why should we assume this particular work is going to fail? if we go by their past records, BL works done by DEEN have been fairly successful in the past: Junjou Romantica and Hetalia may come to mind. But that's besides the point: even if another studio was doing the animation production, why should we already assume it's a failure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Please note that I can only act superior to other people if I talk about other people, which I did not.
I'm not sure how implying that the future spring season does not live up to your expectations, or making mockery of a studio and a particular genre does not come off as a superior attitude. and it's getting annoying because you made similar comments in the past in a similar thread, dismissing shows simply because they don't go according to your values.
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Old 2010-12-22, 02:47   Link #50
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*blinks* Sekai-ichi Hatsukoi (the yaoi series) is made to anime? And it will air in April? I CAN'T WAIT. X3 I really liked Junjou's adaption, so I hope this will be as good or better~ Go BL GO!!
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Old 2010-12-22, 03:04   Link #51
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Well now that we actually have a more complete list of stuff coming out for the Spring season I can say with surprise that there are actually more TV series I want to check out then there are OVA's and movies. The return of Gintama is awesome and Sunrise's other new show Tiger & Bunny looks right up my alley, although they couldn't possibly look more like corporate shills for 2011 unless they end up letting the sponsors write their shows by the summer. Showa Monogatari and Deadman Wonderland also look like possible shows to be on the lookout for as well.

As for OVA's etc. I'll be looking to check out Norageki since Sunrise rarely does wrong by me and are especially good at hitting the mark with OVA's lately. Nichijou will possibly end up being watched (probably ironically and with ample preparation) since I'm going to want a briefer on what exactly is going to be the next big thing in the moe scene and so I can make my predictions for how it's going to be causing drama on the internets come 2011.
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Old 2010-12-22, 03:42   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Nichijou will possibly end up being watched (probably ironically and with ample preparation) since I'm going to want a briefer on what exactly is going to be the next big thing in the moe scene and so I can make my predictions for how it's going to be causing drama on the internets come 2011.
Despite the whole "KyoAni magic" deal, I doubt even they can save Nichijou. The source material is, uh, not strong.
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Old 2010-12-22, 04:27   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Despite the whole "KyoAni magic" deal, I doubt even they can save Nichijou. The source material is, uh, not strong.
I've still yet to be convinced that the whole "Kyoani Magic" deal isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy created by their core fanbase (who by the way are some of the least picky and easy to please folk I've ever seen in any fandom...it doesn't seem to take all that much to get the masterpiece comments circulating in those groups compared to a lot of others I've seen) as opposed to a clear standard or measure of quality so I'm pretty sure it'll do just fine for them if they just stick to how they always handle their shows and let things take their course without a scandal developing around one of their seiyuu. On top of that I'm pretty sure there's a wide gulf between defining quality of material and what ends up being popular among moe otaku, which is Kyoani's core audience, so I'm not sure a lack of gravitas inherent to the manga is likely too make a defining (there's that word again) difference....again as long as they do what is expected of them with it, which is too keep the girls cute, desirable and marketable and avoid things that make 2ch flip their shit. Judging by the trailer they seem to be working what might as well be the "Kyoani Magic" already so......I can't see much working against the show in the initial run-up based on everything I've seen of how fans in Japan and here react to and anticipate Kyoani's work. This show should have little issue becoming a cult hit and solid seller before long.

Of course the individual case of people operating totally outside the regular fan circles of Kyoani's shows may vary wildly, which is where I'm kind of expecting the zany drama to pop up on the internet...just like it always does.
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Old 2010-12-22, 04:42   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
my problem is how the person cherrypicked a theme (or should we say genre (?)) and made mockery of it. if a work deals with same sex relationships, should we make the assumption it is going to fail, based on a summary, a picture, and without actually watching the show itself? the latter comes off as a superior attitude.
Please explain how I made a mockery of it by questioning the studio of DEEN and their latest choice to try and execute a yaoi when they can't even execute the simplest of stories IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
so DEEN is doing the work and had not had a well perceived output as of late? why should we assume this particular work is going to fail? if we go by their past records, BL works done by DEEN have been fairly successful in the past: Junjou Romantica and Hetalia may come to mind. But that's besides the point: even if another studio was doing the animation production, why should we already assume it's a failure?
The only work DEEN has done that I can truly praise is the Kenshin OVA (And only the first one mind you). Other than that, their track record with me is pretty bad. Usually if the studio behind an anime is DEEN, I'm almost positive I'm going to hate it regardless of what kind of story it is. That is why I assume it's a failure. You can't honestly expect me to give a studio a chance when they have failed me countless times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
I'm not sure how implying that the future spring season does not live up to your expectations, or making mockery of a studio and a particular genre does not come off as a superior attitude. and it's getting annoying because you made similar comments in the past in a similar thread, dismissing shows simply because they don't go according to your values.
If I had a superior attitude then I would think that you guys are all beneath me because you like shows I dislike. Did I express this sort of attitude? No.

All I've done is shown distaste for the direction of anime in 2010 and what so far appears to be 2011. If you can't deal with that, it's not my problem. I can tell you this, I showed distaste for this Fall season expectation thread, and having picked up 6-7 shows this season, I can still say that this season has been lackluster and bad IMO. I actually have a fairly good idea of what I am going to like.

Do you expect me to apologize for giving my outlook on the current anime seasons? I don't formulate these opinions with nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Did you check out Gundam Unicorn Part's 1 and 2? They kind of made the year for me honestly.
I'll have to check it out then. I've been holding out on a lot of OVA's because I'm annoyed at how spread apart they are. Break Blade for example is great, but the third DVD/blue ray or whatever hasn't been released for a fwe months after the last one came out.
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Old 2010-12-22, 04:54   Link #55
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@Kaioshin Sama: You are talking like K-On only appeals moe otakus....>_>

This is basic understanding on average number of DVD/BD sales per volume and its relationship with popularity (Example from Shaft/Kyoto Animation):
1000> : Main stream or kids anime. Some atrociously failing late night series can also be there (Natsu no Arashi, Munto)
1000~3000: The Break-even point for low budget series, but still considered to be failure (Ef- a tale of melodies etc.)
3000~5000: Only decent. The break-even point most of the time, but not really good enough for 2nd season (Ef- a tale of memories, Arakawa Under the Bridge)
5000~8000: Where you consider second season. Hit series. (Full Metal Panic, Pani Poni Dash!)
8000~12000: Big hit. Studio should have a party. (Negima!?, Air) For animes oriented for small otaku community, this is extremely huge hit.
12000~25000: Huge hit, very popular, selling even to those who don't usually buy DVDs.
25000~50000: A big issue. Might even get a news article on it. Extremely popular, selling even to those who never bought DVD before, has a lot of votaries (K-On!, Suzumiya Haruhi)
50000~100000: Godly sales. Gundam SEED amd Bakemonogatari are the only 'TV series' reached this sales since 2000. For late night anime, it is practically impossible; Bakemonogatari's case is just biggest mystery ever. (Movie sales is completely different issue)
100000<: Only movie can reach this.

'K-On!' is at a level selling to those 'who has never owned anime DVD before'. Knowing manga, its popularity was even less than Nichijou; the sole reason why K-On got this huge hit was Kyoto Animation.
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Last edited by applejuice; 2010-12-22 at 05:01. Reason: Some grammar things and words
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Old 2010-12-22, 04:55   Link #56
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I can see myself picking up Hana-Saku Iroha by P.A. Works, and probably Steins; Gate by White Fox. Madhouse stuffed up Chaos; Head, but maybe the studio behind Katanagatari can make something good out of the sequel.

Probably will check out Nichijou as well, just because.
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Old 2010-12-22, 05:06   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
@Kaioshin Sama: You are talking like K-On only appeals moe otakus....>_>

This is basic understanding on average number of DVD/BD sales per volume and its relationship with popularity (Example from Shaft/Kyoto Animation):
1000> : Main stream or kids anime. Some atrociously failing late night series can also be there (Natsu no Arashi, Munto)
1000~3000: The Break-even point for low budget series, but still considered to be failure (Ef- a tale of melodies etc.)
3000~5000: Only decent. The break-even point most of the time, but not really good enough for 2nd season (Ef- a tale of memories, Arakawa Under the Bridge)
5000~8000: Where you consider second season. Hit series. (Full Metal Panic, Pani Poni Dash!)
8000~12000: Big hit. Studio should have a party. (Negima!?, Air) For animes oriented for small otaku community, this is extremely huge hit.
12000~25000: Huge hit, very popular, selling even to those who don't usually buy DVDs.
25000~50000: A big issue. Might even get a news article on it. Extremely popular, selling even to those who never bought DVD before, has a lot of votaries (K-On!, Suzumiya Haruhi)
50000~100000: Godly sales. Gundam SEED amd Bakemonogatari are the only 'TV series' reached this sales since 2000. For late night anime, it is practically impossible; Bakemonogatari's case is just biggest mystery ever. (Movie sales is completely different issue)
100000<: Only movie can reach this.

'K-On!' is at a level selling to those 'who has never owned anime DVD before'. Knowing manga, its popularity was even less than Nichijou; the sole reason why K-On got this huge hit was Kyoto Animation.
Hey man, you're preaching to the choir here...even if I'm pretty sure we're interpreting the sermon differently. Also who said I'm talking only about K-On?
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Old 2010-12-22, 05:17   Link #58
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^@Kaioshin Sama:

If I'm understanding you correctly (which is pretty hard due to my English being the second language...@_@) you said Kyoani's core audience is 'moe otaku', which is true and false at the same time. In fact, every single late night running animes are totally dependent on response of those small 'otaku' communities, which is almost... everything on the list, not just Kyoani produced series. The reason for K-On's success is that it appealed those 'outside' of otaku community.

Plus, (if I'm understanding you correctly..*shrugs) 2ch means absolutely nothing. They were saying shit about Bakemonogatari all the time and saying it's sales will die due to those continues delays. However, sales kept increasing even more.
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Old 2010-12-22, 05:37   Link #59
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
who by the way are some of the least picky and easy to please folk I've ever seen in any fandom
A large part of why it's popular is because of what they don't have:
  • gay leads
  • lesbians
  • girl characters that are all about being some dating game stereotype
  • whinny pathetic male leads (on the road to f*cking "whinny adulthood")
  • girl obsessed over male lead
  • male lead obsessed over indifferent girl
  • character with the power (and the train of idiot "sidekick" characters around them)
  • stupid pantsu shots
  • 101 nosebleeds per episode
  • unnecessary blushing
  • excess of sugar-characters (ie. totally useless clumsy dolts)
  • overly "original" character designs (ie. there is no character that is even remotely "normal")
  • self-sufficient characters. Example: the average school character = the only food they need is 1 bento/day, they don't sleep, they have no parents or siblings, they live in school and periodically walk up and down a hill outside the school, there is night only once a year, school is all year long, they all suck at english, etc.
  • flying giant humanoid robots
Sorry you have to learn this now, but breaking the standard usually tends to make things popular, and easily gets them "masterpiece" status in tight groups. Simply because there is no mass production of the stuff you can't call it average when there's nothing to compare with; it's only either "horrible" or a "masterpiece".
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Old 2010-12-22, 06:18   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
A large part of why it's popular is because of what they don't have:
  • gay leads
  • lesbians
  • girl characters that are all about being some dating game stereotype
  • whinny pathetic male leads (on the road to f*cking "whinny adulthood")
  • girl obsessed over male lead
  • male lead obsessed over indifferent girl
  • character with the power (and the train of idiot "sidekick" characters around them)
  • stupid pantsu shots
  • 101 nosebleeds per episode
  • unnecessary blushing
  • excess of sugar-characters (ie. totally useless clumsy dolts)
  • overly "original" character designs (ie. there is no character that is even remotely "normal")
  • self-sufficient characters. Example: the average school character = the only food they need is 1 bento/day, they don't sleep, they have no parents or siblings, they live in school and periodically walk up and down a hill outside the school, there is night only once a year, school is all year long, they all suck at english, etc.
  • flying giant humanoid robots
Sorry you have to learn this now, but breaking the standard usually tends to make things popular, and easily gets them "masterpiece" status in tight groups. Simply because there is no mass production of the stuff you can't call it average when there's nothing to compare with; it's only either "horrible" or a "masterpiece".
It's funny because I'm pretty sure it's had all of those things at one point or another. Let's see:

- Gay Leads (Koizumi in Haruhi while not a lead sure acts kind of acts gay around Kyon who doesn't really do a whole lot to get him to stop so you tell me what's going on there )
- Lesbians (Female characters seem to have implied moments of lesbianism in Kyoto Animation series all the time that are played for laughs. Haruhi with Mikuru, Konata with Kagami, Tsumugi with.....everybody)
- girl characters that are all about being some dating game stereotype (just about every character they've ever done really)
- whiny pathetic male leads (Kyon quite frequently)
- girl obsessed over male lead (well since they only have one male lead I guess it has to be Kyon and his harem. All of the girls dig him on some level even if one of them doesn't want to admit it. If you include Full Metal Panic then it's Sousuke, Chidori and Tessa)
- male lead obsessed over indifferent girl (Kyon with Haruhi and sometimes Yuki Nagato...but only sometimes. FMP with Sousuke and his mission to protect Chidori and her wanting him to go away sometimes)
- character with the power (not sure what this even means)
- unnecessary blushing (K-On....almost all the time)
- excess of sugar-characters (Mikuru, Mio, Yui, Tsukasa to name a few)
- "stupid" pantsu shots (Mikuru and Haruhi in the first and second episode of Haruhi Season 1 respectively, also Mio in K-On, but it's never directly seen on camera)
- overly "original" character designs (No idea what this means)
- self-sufficient characters. Example: the average school character = the only food they need is 1 bento/day, they don't sleep, they have no parents or siblings, they live in school and periodically walk up and down a hill outside the school, there is night only once a year, school is all year long, they all suck at english, etc. (What..... )
- flying giant humanoid robots (Haruhi in the Day of Sagittarius when she launches the ***dam and if you want to count it Full Metal Panic: The Second Raid)

So like wow...not only do they follow what you call the standard, they seem to do it all the time. I don't know what else to say other than you completely don't have an argument here. Sorry bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
^@Kaioshin Sama:

If I'm understanding you correctly (which is pretty hard due to my English being the second language...@_@) you said Kyoani's core audience is 'moe otaku', which is true and false at the same time. In fact, every single late night running animes are totally dependent on response of those small 'otaku' communities, which is almost... everything on the list, not just Kyoani produced series. The reason for K-On's success is that it appealed those 'outside' of otaku community.

Plus, (if I'm understanding you correctly..*shrugs) 2ch means absolutely nothing. They were saying shit about Bakemonogatari all the time and saying it's sales will die due to those continues delays. However, sales kept increasing even more.
2ch seems to have a collective habit of saying one thing and then doing another. They blow a lot of steam, but at the end of the day always come around to supporting what they are fans of. Kind of like fans on the internet in general. Anyway a pie chart of demographics that bought K-On and how they were sliced up among the overall purchases sure would be nice at this point. Though if it did somehow break-out of the core otaku audience (a group that is easily large enough to generate those sales numbers if they come together all on their own) I've never heard about it myself.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2010-12-22 at 07:09.
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