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Old 2010-12-22, 12:09   Link #20201
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
Hm? That's simply cause Ep7 would have the Shannon/Yasu piece that dresses up as Kanon. Will thought it was a bad idea to force Shannon and Kanon together since he had a sense of foreboding... well, anyone would have a sense of foreboding after reading such jagged speech from Shannon. It sorta goes beyond my imagination what would've possibly happened if he went through with forcing them - might've turned into a horror show.
I don't think it would've been a logic error. After all, Episode 7 was hardly a game. It was more like Bern saying "I'm too lazy to do the rites for Beato's funeral myself, so Will, I brought you here to do it for me. Oh, and you'll need to solve who Beato is to do so. But I like fucking with people, so I'm not handing you the answers on a silver platter."
After all, they had two people who were supposed to be the same person within that catbox. If Will had pressed Shannon to bring Kanon here, she might've just brought Lion, or spectral projected Kanon beside them.
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Old 2010-12-22, 14:55   Link #20202
Klarth
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yopee View Post
I always assumed YasuShannontrice wasn't the ymf19ya calling Natsuhi on the other end of the line via chessboard thinking because of the favourite season trick. Beato would have had autumn scrawled in red paint on the wall or something obvious rather than a puny little card under some object that could go unnoticed.
And I found it really odd that Erika and Bern would leave the trick alone unexposed, being the intellectual rapist and Beato guts spiller they are. Only real reason I can think of is that maybe the trick was just too easy?
Same goes for Berune's missing master key. That's one of yasu's first instances of doing 'magic' yet Bern leaves it alone.
Yes, the trick is too easy - it's also why I don't think it was Yasu making the call.
I don't believe it was Yasu making the call either. As far as I'm concerned, the reason it wasn't put obviously as soon as she answered the room was because the caller didn't know Natsuhi's favorite season. Around her room, the four seasons were written on small cards hidden- in addition to behind the clock, maybe under the bed, hidden in the curtains, in a pillowcase, etc.
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:08   Link #20203
Yopee
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I don't believe it was Yasu making the call either. As far as I'm concerned, the reason it wasn't put obviously as soon as she answered the room was because the caller didn't know Natsuhi's favorite season. Around her room, the four seasons were written on small cards hidden- in addition to behind the clock, maybe under the bed, hidden in the curtains, in a pillowcase, etc.
Yup that's my way of solving the trick too.
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:15   Link #20204
Thunder Book
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That's the same conclusion I came to.
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:27   Link #20205
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Question:even though auau said that she would sleep only for a few centuries bern said good night forever.Did auau die?
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:31   Link #20206
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Maybe. Her profile does mention that she constantly repeats a cycle of life and death. I kind of think Bern was just being a bitch, though.
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Old 2010-12-22, 15:52   Link #20207
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Bern probably has no intention of being there if she wakes up again regardless.
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Old 2010-12-22, 16:18   Link #20208
AuraTwilight
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"I'm going to sleep for a few centuries." "Good, fuck off and never wake up, I hate you."

As for Erika and Shannon/Kanon, technically Erika never saw them; that scene was in Battler's perspective,and he says that Kanon was behind Gohda.
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Old 2010-12-22, 17:34   Link #20209
Klarth
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
"I'm going to sleep for a few centuries." "Good, fuck off and never wake up, I hate you."

As for Erika and Shannon/Kanon, technically Erika never saw them; that scene was in Battler's perspective,and he says that Kanon was behind Gohda.
The scene was confusing to begin with. It starts with Meta-Battler saying something along the lines of : "I" saw <people>..

However, it shows Battler's picture, which would imply it's from Meta-Battler's point of view- but, then why would he have used the quotation marks around the I?
I don't really know what happened there
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Old 2010-12-22, 18:36   Link #20210
AuraTwilight
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There's no meaningful difference between Meta-Battler and Battler's perspective. Neither of them are more reliable than the other, especially since Meta-Battler is trolled with fantasy scenes.
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Old 2010-12-22, 18:42   Link #20211
Cao Ni Ma
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Again, lets do a big if - If Dine's laws apply to these games then how would this one fit in those scenes in EP5

2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.
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Old 2010-12-22, 18:59   Link #20212
AuraTwilight
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Well, damn, that one's right out. Fantasy scenes exist.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:05   Link #20213
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, damn, that one's right out. Fantasy scenes exist.
When Battler was the detective and we considered Beatrice the culprit then it was valid. She was deceiving both Battler and us at the same time.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:31   Link #20214
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Yea, except no. Because Beatrice isn't the culprit, and that doesn't change how Dine's rules work just because we thought otherwise.

We haven't even been told how many of Dine's rules apply. I wouldn't bother with any except what's been stated in Red regarding them, since we didn't get 100% of the Knox rules.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:41   Link #20215
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, except no. Because Beatrice isn't the culprit, and that doesn't change how Dine's rules work just because we thought otherwise.

We haven't even been told how many of Dine's rules apply. I wouldn't bother with any except what's been stated in Red regarding them, since we didn't get 100% of the Knox rules.
I think should consider the idea that Beatrice is the culprit inside her games.

For a while I've been telling that each murder mystery is nothing but a game where the murder kills people but nor for real.
The fake part shouldn't even be questioned at this point. But why you think that this opportunity killer is even part of Beatrice's games, if the games are based on stories that were written before the actual event?

Hachijo said that she was able to reach the truth by reading the messages in the bottle. Rationally speaking this opportunity killer shouldn't exist at all in those stories. Beatrice wrote those stories with herself as the killer.

What Battler (and we) is supposed to understand is Beatrice's game, her heart, her motives. And if you re-watch Battler's epiphany in EP5 you'll realize that he only understood all of these stuff and not some kind of foreign element in Beatrice's story.

So basically what I mean to say is that whether this opportunity killer exist or not, it has nothing to do with Beatrice's game. Beatrice wouldn't include him in her games, because her objective is not to make Battler understand the truth of the Rokkenjima incident, but the truth of her heart.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:59   Link #20216
AuraTwilight
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I think should consider the idea that Beatrice is the culprit inside her games.
We can't take that for granted; Beatrice could just be playing her martyr game.

Even still, Meta-Beatrice can't really be the culprit, since Battler is trying to disprove her existence; She can't be the culprit anymore than Meta-Battler can be the culprit, since he can't actually investigate anything, or trust in what he's shown. He's a Reader.

Quote:
The fake part shouldn't even be questioned at this point. But why you think that this opportunity killer is even part of Beatrice's games, if the games are based on stories that were written before the actual event?
Well, we still don't know enough about Yasu's motives about wtf is going on or whatever to be certain; perhaps she suspected someone was going to do something, and that's why she wrote the message bottles? It's ultimately irrelevant though. Beatrice is taking the blame for SOMEONE, her entire character is built on that.

Quote:
Hachijo said that she was able to reach the truth by reading the messages in the bottle. Rationally speaking this opportunity killer shouldn't exist at all in those stories. Beatrice wrote those stories with herself as the killer.
Which means either Yasu isn't the culprit in her own stories, or Hachijou is speaking utter bullshit. I can believe either.

Quote:
What Battler (and we) is supposed to understand is Beatrice's game, her heart, her motives. And if you re-watch Battler's epiphany in EP5 you'll realize that he only understood all of these stuff and not some kind of foreign element in Beatrice's story.
Pfft, yea, and? She obviously has a heartfelt motive for taking the blame for someone. For example (hypothetical example I know is crap, no need to deconstruct it), "Yasu suspected that George was going to kill people, made Shannon/Kanon the culprit of the story to spare him, sent it out. Hachijou somehow picked up on enough clues to deduce that George is the culprit."

Quote:
So basically what I mean to say is that whether this opportunity killer exist or not, it has nothing to do with Beatrice's game. Beatrice wouldn't include him in her games, because her objective is not to make Battler understand the truth of the Rokkenjima incident, but the truth of her heart.
I'm not entirely convinced there's a difference, considering what Beatrice represents.

Also, lolEP3.
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Old 2010-12-22, 20:09   Link #20217
Renall
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Orrrrrrrrrrrrr the message bottles postdate the event.

I'm just saying, their provenance is questionable.
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Old 2010-12-22, 20:12   Link #20218
Axilios
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Quote:
Orrrrrrrrrrrrr the message bottles postdate the event.

I'm just saying, their provenance is questionable.

But then the writing is a problem, no? Ange saw the messages in ep4...
(Or Yasu actually survived in rokkenjima-prime and wrote it afterwards... but we have no clues for it, or do we?)
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Old 2010-12-22, 20:13   Link #20219
Cao Ni Ma
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^^^^^
There might be clues! We still dont know how that Sakutaro got there, either it was made before the events or it was made after it! Lets go deeper into this, lets assume it was done before the events, a likely scenario. Rosa made it for Maria and intended to give it to her during the family conference, forgot about it and left in the boat by accident. Rosa made it because she noticed that Maria was delving farther into the world of witches ever since she ripped the previous one up. The other possibility is that it was made after the events in Rokkenjima, that means that someone that knew about Sakutaro made it and that somehow it got to the captains house. Seems less likely but its still probable.

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Orrrrrrrrrrrrr the message bottles postdate the event.

I'm just saying, their provenance is questionable.
Someone survived the events and wrote down the events with possible spins to it, how long was it for someone thats missing and feared to be dead considered legally dead again?

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-12-22 at 20:47.
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Old 2010-12-22, 20:15   Link #20220
Jan-Poo
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LolEP3 wasn't written by Beatrice.

Anyway why are you giving for granted that Beatrice is protecting someone else?
I'm merely saying that you should consider the possibility, you are the one that is taking stuff for granted without a real certainty.


I think Beatrice needs to be the culprit if her objective is to make Battler understand her heart. That's because of what Battler told her 6 years before. "In order to understand the whydunit you need to understand the culprit's heart".
I think you are very far from the truth if you think Beatrice has such reasons behind her actions. Beatrice created this game for herself, she wasn't covering anyone's ass, she doesn't have any reason to cover George's ass nor she can possibly cover something that big and fatty, not even with her magic.
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