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Old 2010-12-22, 21:02   Link #20221
Renall
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Well the trick here is one that I think ep7 might actually call into question (pay attention to Maria).

How does Ange verify that the message bottles are genuine? She compares the handwriting. Okay, so they match. That proves Professor Ootsuki's explanation that the message bottles were found shortly after the event, must have been written before it, and only eventually wound up somewhere he could access and study them.

Wait. It doesn't prove that at all. It proves one thing, and one thing only: That the same person wrote in both documents.

If you doubt the authenticity of Maria's diary, the authenticity of the message bottles is in question. Alternately, if you doubt Ootsuki's story (and he has no way to demonstrate that a fisherman/the police actually found the message bottle versus just being told a fisherman/the police did), any or all of those documents could have been produced at any time, whether before the incident or for some time thereafter.

Why would Ootsuki believe a story like that? Well, he's someone who is inclined to believe that. He wants a mystery to exist. Even if he genuinely believes it, can we trust his explanation? Can Ange?

Of course Ange is going to be a biased source. There is no doubt in her mind that Maria's diary is authentic at the time. That doesn't make it so.

Mind, they could still also predate the event. But they would be much easier to make conform to events as appropriate if they came after. And note that, in the message bottles themselves, Sakutaro doesn't exist. Which he wouldn't, if the only one in the world happened to have been destroyed before the conference. Which squares with the diary. But is the diary real?

EDIT: And yes I realize the Eva thing but the fact that Eva doesn't survive in ep1-2 doesn't necessarily prove that the message bottle writer has to have been writing before she was known to have survived.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:04   Link #20222
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Beatrice created this game for herself, she wasn't covering anyone's ass, she doesn't have any reason to cover George's ass nor she can possibly cover something that big and fatty, not even with her magic.


I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

Some people are probably going to go nuts when they see the murders for the first time.
"Ah! I knew that fat fuck George did it! I was riiiight!", etc... Yeah, I'll be doing a proper read through first, thanks.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Wait. It doesn't prove that at all. It proves one thing, and one thing only: That the same person wrote in both documents.

If you doubt the authenticity of Maria's diary, the authenticity of the message bottles is in question. Alternately, if you doubt Ootsuki's story (and he has no way to demonstrate that a fisherman/the police actually found the message bottle versus just being told a fisherman/the police did), any or all of those documents could have been produced at any time, whether before the incident or for some time thereafter.
Yeah, go ahead and doubt all those things. Good luck and let us know what you find.
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Last edited by Ssol; 2010-12-22 at 21:16.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:23   Link #20223
Cao Ni Ma
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How did Ange get the diary anyways. Wasnt it that she swiped it away while the police where taking evidence away from the scenes or something? My memory is hazy about that part.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:27   Link #20224
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
How did Ange get the diary anyways. Wasnt it that she swiped it away while the police where taking evidence away from the scenes or something? My memory is hazy about that part.
Oh hey look inside this spoiler tag!
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:34   Link #20225
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think Beatrice needs to be the culprit if her objective is to make Battler understand her heart. That's because of what Battler told her 6 years before. "In order to understand the whydunit you need to understand the culprit's heart".
I think you are very far from the truth if you think Beatrice has such reasons behind her actions. Beatrice created this game for herself, she wasn't covering anyone's ass, she doesn't have any reason to cover George's ass nor she can possibly cover something that big and fatty, not even with her magic.
You act like Yasu/Shannon is the only character she ever wrote about in the story. Here's a thought maybe she took that to mean she could write multiple characters three-dimensionally? Characters in general can be given the backseat in mysteries. Yasu isn't the only character in the story you can see the heart to. But in any case it would just be hiding one person's heart behind another. Why do you think it would be hard for her to write a riddle to cover up another riddle if Yasu was there to know about it?


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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Some people are probably going to go nuts when they see the murders for the first time.
"Ah! I knew that fat fuck George did it! I was riiiight!", etc... Yeah, I'll be doing a proper read through first, thanks.
Let's be fair. I have standards. People here have standards. I'd like him to be the culprit because I've been arguing it for a long time. I've been on a bunch of rereads so if I find that this happens and it's written badly I'm not going to claim it's right on the spot. Just like I didn't do that with Kyrie's Tea Party even though I was partial to her too. I've been analyzing the story so I want my deconstruction to be pieced together. There has to be a heart to it though. I beleive it can be written in a way that works.

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Yeah, go ahead and doubt all those things. Good luck and let us know what you find.
You're being a bit arrogant don't you think?
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:35   Link #20226
Renall
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Yeah, go ahead and doubt all those things. Good luck and let us know what you find.
And you're so sure of it? Ange's unreliable and Ootsuki's a fruitcake.

If Maria's diary was important to her, why wasn't it in her bag? If it was in her bag, how did it survive when Maria supposedly was so blow'd up they only found her jaw? When did Ange have the opportunity to go scavenging in her cousin's things? Similar issue with the Mammon stake surviving.

The best explanation I've seen someone come up with is "it was a different diary she left at home," but if it's the one full of Beatrice's writings, surely it's the diary Maria would bring along with her when she plays with Beatrice?

I'd be surprised if he just let things stand at that without even addressing it in ep8. That does assume we get more Ange, though. If he never talks about it, then it was probably intended to be the way it appears. But it seems like something he shouldn't leave hanging.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:48   Link #20227
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Let's be fair. I have standards. People here have standards. I'd like him to be the culprit because I've been arguing it for a long time. I've been on a bunch of rereads so if I find that this happens and it's written badly I'm not going to claim it's right on the spot. Just like I didn't do that with Kyrie's Tea Party even though I was partial to her too. I've been analyzing the story so I want my deconstruction to be pieced together. There has to be a heart to it though. I beleive it can be written in a way that works.
To be honest I would really disappointed if George was the culprit. I have done several rereads as well and I can't put together enough evidence to clearly finger him as the culprit. But that's just me.

I really like your theory on George as well. That's why I placed a link to it at the top of my Asumu theory. I think you should focus more on the wedding proposal. It's appeared in so many games that it cannot be unimportant in my opinion:
-If Battler returns a year earlier, it's a year before George's proposal.
-If Battler returns a year latter then George already proposed.
Seems like the pivot point. No?
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You're being a bit arrogant don't you think?
I wouldn't speak to just anyone like that. Some people deserve respect and some deserve less.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:50   Link #20228
Cao Ni Ma
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Possible options are-

A) The diary was left home for that trip, either Maria forgot to bring it there or she willfully left there.

B)Maria brought it but left it in a place where the blast radius wouldn't reach it (very improbable, how would it get to Ange if its in such a remote place?)

C)Someone other than Maria wrote the diary and was able to sneak it with her belongings (who and why? This person would need to know about Maria's relation with Beatrice and would even know about Mariage Sorciere, wasn't Ange part of this and knew about it?)

D) Someone survived the events in Rokkenjima, took diary and placed it with the other belongings
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:56   Link #20229
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
To be honest I would really disappointed if George was the culprit. I have done several rereads as well and I can't put together enough evidence to clearly finger him as the culprit. But that's just me.

I really like your theory on George as well. That's why I placed a link to it at the top of my Asumu theory. I think you should focus more on the wedding proposal. It's appeared in so many games that it cannot be unimportant in my opinion:
-If Battler returns a year earlier, it's a year before George's proposal.
-If Battler returns a year latter then George already proposed.
Seems like the pivot point. No?
I think I mentioned that context for the proposal earlier in this thread actually.

I did use quotes from the proposal scenes here and there. I don't think Everything in those scenes can be used as a hint, but I can look further into it.
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Old 2010-12-22, 21:57   Link #20230
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Spoiler for spoilered for large image:


found this on /jp/
Location of Maria's Rose?
Possibly unimportant, interesting nonetheless
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:04   Link #20231
Cao Ni Ma
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Yeah its been mentioned before, a few pages back no less.
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:08   Link #20232
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Gohda ate Maria's rose.
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Old 2010-12-22, 22:49   Link #20233
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LolEP3 wasn't written by Beatrice.
Says who? Hachijou? Yea, I don't trust her for jack shit. Besides, in the Meta-World, EP3 is called one of Beatrice's games, so yea, it was, one way or another.

Quote:
Anyway why are you giving for granted that Beatrice is protecting someone else?
I'm merely saying that you should consider the possibility, you are the one that is taking stuff for granted without a real certainty.
"I am a witch. I am claiming that no humans did it but that I did it with my magic. Herp derp."

I mean, it's right in the premise. Come on.

Quote:
I think Beatrice needs to be the culprit if her objective is to make Battler understand her heart. That's because of what Battler told her 6 years before. "In order to understand the whydunit you need to understand the culprit's heart".
I think you are very far from the truth if you think Beatrice has such reasons behind her actions. Beatrice created this game for herself, she wasn't covering anyone's ass, she doesn't have any reason to cover George's ass nor she can possibly cover something that big and fatty, not even with her magic.
Beatrice wasn't the culprit of EP5, as the meta-characters immediately point out that everything is wrong and/or different. Battler realizes the truth through this game, and gets all awesome. He understands Beato's heart.

Beatrice's heart is understood through a game where she is not the culprit. Your thesis fails.

Quote:
Some people are probably going to go nuts when they see the murders for the first time.
"Ah! I knew that fat fuck George did it! I was riiiight!", etc... Yeah, I'll be doing a proper read through first, thanks.
I was using George as an example. Reading comprehension.

Quote:
The best explanation I've seen someone come up with is "it was a different diary she left at home," but if it's the one full of Beatrice's writings, surely it's the diary Maria would bring along with her when she plays with Beatrice?
Maybe that diary got full and she recently started a new one? She does have a notebook of some kind with her.

@Rose: THAT FUCKER PUT A DAMAGED ROSE IN THE FOOD? Well, shit, I hope no one got fucking worms from that shit. No wonder that asshole got fired from his last job. Everyone on Rokkenjima died of unsanitary food.
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Old 2010-12-23, 00:00   Link #20234
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post

The best explanation I've seen someone come up with is "it was a different diary she left at home," but if it's the one full of Beatrice's writings, surely it's the diary Maria would bring along with her when she plays with Beatrice?
Maybe Rosa found it after their fight and stole it from Maria, and gave it to Eva who hid it in her hair, or behind her fan?
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Old 2010-12-23, 00:00   Link #20235
Jan-Poo
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Beatrice wasn't the culprit of EP5, as the meta-characters immediately point out that everything is wrong and/or different. Battler realizes the truth through this game, and gets all awesome. He understands Beato's heart.

Beatrice's heart is understood through a game where she is not the culprit. Your thesis fails.
He actually browses through all the past games before solving everything. EP5 has always been said to give additional hints. Plus how the hell you know that Yasu/Lion isn't the culprit in this story too?

If these are your arguments my thesis can rest easy.


Quote:
You act like Yasu/Shannon is the only character she ever wrote about in the story. Here's a thought maybe she took that to mean she could write multiple characters three-dimensionally? Characters in general can be given the backseat in mysteries. Yasu isn't the only character in the story you can see the heart to. But in any case it would just be hiding one person's heart behind another. Why do you think it would be hard for her to write a riddle to cover up another riddle if Yasu was there to know about it?
Did you really understand what I said?
It doesn't matter how many characters exist inside the story only one heart needs to be understood by the sleuth in order to solve the mystery and that's the heart of the culprit.
Any other character would fall in the background if compared to the culprit's heart.

Since Yasu's objective is to make Battler understand her heart, Yasu necessarily needs to be the culprit in her story.
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Old 2010-12-23, 00:14   Link #20236
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
He actually browses through all the past games before solving everything. EP5 has always been said to give additional hints. Plus how the hell you know that Yasu/Lion isn't the culprit in this story too?
It's the 5th Game that makes everything click, though.

As for how I can trust that Yasu isn't the culprit, the fact that all of Beato's meta-characters keep saying that someone else is doing it, the magic circles are wrong, etc, are a pretty good indication.

I mean, unless you think Ryukishi's just putting in a whole bunch of irrelevant garbage.

Quote:

Since Yasu's objective is to make Battler understand her heart, Yasu necessarily needs to be the culprit in her story.
Except no. EP5 even makes this big thing about how writings are an attempt by an author for the reader to understand their message. I mean, unless Agatha Christie is the culprit of her stories...
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Old 2010-12-23, 01:01   Link #20237
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I mean, unless Agatha Christie is the culprit of her stories...
Well, it's possible. She looks pretty deranged in some pictures.

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Old 2010-12-23, 06:04   Link #20238
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Oh god, she looks like something you'd see in the Overlook Hotel.
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Old 2010-12-23, 06:55   Link #20239
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I mean, unless Agatha Christie is the culprit of her stories...
Well, we have authors being the detectives in their own stories, Queen for example.
Also, Yasu being the culprit in her own story doesn't take any meaning she may be trying to convey.
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Old 2010-12-23, 08:56   Link #20240
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Well, we have authors being the detectives in their own stories, Queen for example.
Also, Yasu being the culprit in her own story doesn't take any meaning she may be trying to convey.
There are arguments for and against. The overarching theme is that the "Golden Witch Beatrice" perpetrated a series of impossible crimes using magic. Whether the meaning lies in the fantasy or the solution to it can be debated. Whether the solution leads to Yasu as culprit can be, too.
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