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Old 2010-12-22, 17:17   Link #701
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
In conclusion, Sheryl rules. Right?

The hydra scene was definitely embarrassing, good word choice. And how did Ranka and Alto have a fake kiss? It had false meaning, but it was not a fake kiss.
Because it was acted. In a movie. Maybe Ranka did mean it, but there is no sign that Alto did.
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Old 2010-12-22, 19:10   Link #702
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Because it was acted. In a movie. Maybe Ranka did mean it, but there is no sign that Alto did.
Did their lips touch and all? Yes, therefore it was real. But because it was acted, it had false meaning.
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Old 2010-12-23, 04:02   Link #703
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Did their lips touch and all? Yes, therefore it was real. But because it was acted, it had false meaning.
I think we simply got a disagreement on how to define "fake". In essence we mean the same thing. Of course their lips touched, but it was a "fake" kiss, because it didn't have the meaning a "real" kiss would have. I think the vast majority of people understood what I meant.
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Old 2010-12-23, 04:36   Link #704
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"Acted" should more or less equal "fake", no?
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Old 2010-12-23, 05:51   Link #705
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
"Acted" should more or less equal "fake", no?
For a bit more fuel on this topic, you guys should wait til I get the commentary written up, in say, a couple more hours.
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-26 at 22:02.
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Old 2010-12-23, 06:08   Link #706
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"Acted" should more or less equal "fake", no?
That's what I am saying, yep.
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Old 2010-12-23, 08:07   Link #707
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Episode 10 Commentary

Commentators: Nakajima Megumi, Endou Aya (Sheryl) and Kawamori Shouji (who played the director (^^))

As always, paraphrasing rather than directly quoting, with summaries and my own thoughts in [brackets]

====

Eto...firstly, the way that Megumi-chan and Endou-san say "Hajimaru you~"...can someone tell me what that's a reference to? I swear I've heard that singsong tone somewhere before...

====

Why Macross Zero?
Kawamori: There was always going to be a movie within a show in Frontier, the only question was what it would be. And the producer said that it'd be nice to use something already created.
------But in the end, it fit perfectly (what with the triangle and all).
------Though it was completely chance that the Zero BD came out during Frontier's run, we hadn't planned it at all.
Endou: Really? Are you sure you didn't? At the time, I thought that you were really sneaky, because I'd borrowed Zero
------and watching one makes you want to watch the other, to try and see who appears in each one.
Kawamori: true, the things you see in Zero pop up here an there in Frontier
Endou: It's like an adult past-time, isn't it? Looking for these kinds of things
Kawamori: I like looking for these kinds of things myself, so I'll never say whether it's right or wrong (for Macross). After all, isn't it fun when you suddenly spot something on a rewatch years later?

[...Kawamori-sensei, that's so unfair!]

======

The "Acting or not" issue comes up from 4:18 (when Ranka is talking to Alto on the phone)
Nakajima: It often slips my mind that Alto was in the acting world.
Kawamori: You know, he might be acting all the time...
Endou: No, don't say that!
(Kawamori laughs)
Endou: come on tell us! when is he acting?!
Kawamori: Well, even Alto himself sometimes doesn't know when he's acting and when he's not, that's why he's afraid of being in the acting world.
------though that's also true of actors in our world.
Endou: Characters similar to oneself are the most difficult to do (in some ways)
Kawamori: It's like 'where does the role end and you start?'
Endou: Are you creating something or not? It's hard to know

so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
"Acted" should more or less equal "fake", no?
[...don't know about that... Kawamori-sensei, you are EVIL!!]

======

[Based on Alto's line @~3:50 they enter an interesting discussion about acting here. ("Think not and you will captivate your audience, think and you will fail [sorry, I don't have a sub on me at present, so this is my translation, based on what they mean by "hana" (the flower). The original phrase, meaning something like "Keep secrets and you will captivate your audience, keep them not and you will fail", is from a famous Noh master from the Muromachi period (1400s), Zeami Motokiyo])]

One of the examples Kawamori-sensei brings up is a role as an elderly person.
Kawamori: the thing is, people might act as if they're weak, hobbling and bent over etc, but a real elderly person would actually be trying to act younger - it's just that they're not as sprightly anymore.

======

8:20 where Alto's past as a Kabuki star is revealed
Kawamori: it wasn't in the show, but as a child, Michel actually saw Alto once, dancing in (a park or somewhere similar)in some production* and ended up thinking "how cute!"
Endou/Nakajima: Ehhhhhh!!
Kawamori: and Klan got angry at him.
Endou/Nakajima: Ehhhhhhhhhh!! I want to see that! Let's do something with this!

[LOL - I want to see it too!!!]

======

9:00 So who was the director thinking of having Alto play...
Nakajima: Alto is beautiful, but Shin isn't really beautiful, more, a really passionate person, so not Shin, right?
Kawamori: an important role probably, but not Shin. And let's just move on.
Endou/Nakajima: Ehhhh!! But now we're really curious!!

10:00 Is Ranka's rise too quick?
Kawamori: I asked people in the industry, whether someone's life could change in a week. They basically said that three days was enough - so it really doesn't feel real.
[and Nakajima actually experienced this IRL, thanks to Macross]

12:55
Endou: Alto's - Nakamura-kun's "shi..! tteta sa" is super cute!
[basically, they thought that Nakamura had Alto's agitation down pat]

14:40 Brera saving the day
[Both Megumi-chan and Endou-san thought that Ranka and Brera would end up together!]
Nakajima: she should just have Brera protect her!
[After all, Alto's always getting his a** handed to him, first by Ozma, then here by the hydra and Brera]
Kawamori: but he's an amateur, In the real world, that's what happens.

======

16:50 Ranka talking to Bobby
Nakajima: it's like talking to one's mother, Bobby's really motherly
Endou: like an older woman
Kawamori: Once we decided on using Macross Zero, it was like 'ah, we can put a kiss in' => Sheryl kissing Alto

17:35 [the 'rivals' have an amusing exchange here]
Nakajima: Bobby's "you haven't really experience real love before, have you?" was like a dagger through my heart. I mean, to have BOBBY of all people say that to her! when he himself is in a love that will never come to fruition!
Endou: that's the most difficult to bear, a one-sided love
Nakajima: then this (the kiss) straight after that!
Endou: I'm really sorry!
Kawamori: (laughs) Ranka really doesn't like to lose, does she?



Kawamori: It was pretty difficult finding someone who could be harsh, but who could also bring out Sheryl's cuteness in scenes like this one.
Just touching on the romance then...
[From 19:00, the three of them enter a discussion that seems at odds with some of the opinions on this forum, if the Romance thread is anything to go by. They all think that Ranka is actually quite a STRONG person, capable of standing on her own two feet, and most importantly, DECISIVE.]
Kawamori: It's like her foundation is strength
Endou: a natural strength
Nakajima: she's quite manly (in some ways)
[In fact, they consider Alto to be the most childish of the three, with Ranka being the most manly. => Alto's not really ready to be in love with anyone!]


======

20:50 Ozma makes the Ranka-Mao Nome link obvious
Kawamori: the timing of this revelation was quite a challenge to decide - it couldn't be too early etc

21--
[They discuss how much this scene has changed from Zero. For those of you that have that OVA on you, what do you think? Note also that Kobayashi Sanae (Cathy) was actually Sara Nome in that OVA ^^]

And the director @22:50
Kawamori: It wasn't requested - rather, I told them not to - but the staff of Frontier basically drew me into the movie
Nakajima: It's a show of their love for you, not that they're bullying you
Kawamori: Well, don't know about that...

~23:11
Endou/Nakajima; Sheryl is so cool here!
Kawamori: as if she's looking forward to the challenge (of having Ranka as a 'competitor')
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-12-29 at 06:22. Reason: I'm an idiot - kouen as in public performance, not park!
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Old 2010-12-23, 08:42   Link #708
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Thank you again, Karice. Very cool stuff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Kawamori: It was pretty difficult finding someone who could be harsh, but who could also bring out Sheryl's cuteness in scenes like this one.
Just touching on the romance then...
[From 19:00, the three of them enter a discussion that seems at odds with some of the opinions on this forum, if the Romance thread is anything to go by. They all think that Ranka is actually quite a STRONG person, capable of standing on her own two feet, and most importantly, DECISIVE.]
Kawamori: It's like her foundation is strength
Endou: a natural strength
Nakajima: she's quite manly (in some ways)
[In fact, they consider Alto to be the most childish of the three, with Ranka being the most manly. => Alto's not really ready to be in love with anyone!]
Y'know...I'm okay with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And the director @22:50
Kawamori: It wasn't requested - rather, I told them not to - but the staff of Frontier basically drew me into the movie
Nakajima: It's a show of their love for you, not that they're bullying you
Kawamori: Well, don't know about that...
Pfft. Whatever, Kawamori. In the original Macross TV series, they ALSO had a movie (starring Minmay) with a director, named "Sho Blackstone," who was based on (and voiced by!) the chief director of Macross, Noburo Ishiguro. Not only that, but a disheveled character based on Kawamori shows up a number of times in SDFM TV and DYRL, and usually gets killed each time. I don't see how this is any different.
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Old 2010-12-23, 09:03   Link #709
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Kawamori voiced the director of 'Bird Human' right ?
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Old 2010-12-23, 09:16   Link #710
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Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
Kawamori voiced the director of 'Bird Human' right ?
No, he was voiced by Kouichi Sawaguchi, who doesn't appear to have an ANN profile.

And I suppose this is as good a place as any to point out that, according to the Universal Bunny liner notes, "Gira Gira Summer" was the song that Sheryl wrote for Bird Human. No wonder it was rejected as not fitting the style of the movie!

EDIT: I guess it's ALSO worth pointing out that this is the ONLY episode of Frontier to list Hiroshi Ohnogi in the credits.
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Old 2010-12-23, 09:20   Link #711
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I think we simply got a disagreement on how to define "fake". In essence we mean the same thing. Of course their lips touched, but it was a "fake" kiss, because it didn't have the meaning a "real" kiss would have. I think the vast majority of people understood what I meant.
We're not defining fake, we are defining a kiss. I am saying that because their lips touched, it was a real kiss. I think kissing should have meaning, I'm a romantic, what can I say. And because the kiss was for a movie, it had false meaning. Sheryl tried to give her kiss to Alto false meaning but failed. Ranka's was full of false meaning, despite her desire to make it real, all the way through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
8:20 where Alto's past as a Kabuki star is revealed
Kawamori: it wasn't in the show, but as a child, Michel actually saw Alto once, dancing in (a park or somewhere similar) and ended up thinking "how cute!"
Endou/Nakajima: Ehhhhhh!!
Kawamori: and Klan got angry at him.
Endou/Nakajima: Ehhhhhhhhhh!! I want to see that! Let's do something with this!

[LOL - I want to see it too!!!]
That would be a really great flashback scene. I wish they had put that in. Wait, maybe they'll do it for the movie since Alto's past wasn't revealed yet (I think). To be honest, I just want to see Klan yelling at Michael.
Quote:
Just touching on the romance then...
[From 19:00, the three of them enter a discussion that seems at odds with some of the opinions on this forum, if the Romance thread is anything to go by. They all think that Ranka is actually quite a STRONG person, capable of standing on her own two feet, and most importantly, DECISIVE.]
Kawamori: It's like her foundation is strength
Endou: a natural strength
Nakajima: she's quite manly (in some ways)
[In fact, they consider Alto to be the most childish of the three, with Ranka being the most manly. => Alto's not really ready to be in love with anyone!]
Alto really is the weakest of the three. No wonder I don't like him that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Pfft. Whatever, Kawamori. In the original Macross TV series, they ALSO had a movie (starring Minmay) with a director, named "Sho Blackstone," who was based on (and voiced by!) the chief director of Macross, Noburo Ishiguro. Not only that, but a disheveled character based on Kawamori shows up a number of times in SDFM TV and DYRL, and usually gets killed each time. I don't see how this is any different.
This is done a lot, putting staff into a show or movie. Stan Lee appears in Marvel TV series from time to time and has been in every Marvel in recent time movie.
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Old 2010-12-23, 09:30   Link #712
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Just touching on the romance then...
[From 19:00, the three of them enter a discussion that seems at odds with some of the opinions on this forum, if the Romance thread is anything to go by. They all think that Ranka is actually quite a STRONG person, capable of standing on her own two feet, and most importantly, DECISIVE.]
Kawamori: It's like her foundation is strength
Endou: a natural strength
Nakajima: she's quite manly (in some ways)
[In fact, they consider Alto to be the most childish of the three, with Ranka being the most manly. => Alto's not really ready to be in love with anyone!]
Well, I'd say they must have changed their mind a few weeks after that. If you remember, Ranka being indecisive and meek and whatever wasn't a complaint at that point, at the contrary she was making her way into the entertainment industry and had shown a good amount of backbone doing so. Just up until episode 12-14 we had her on a steady progress in that direction.

It is only beginning with episode 15 that this process is reversed and Ranka begins to abandon her commitment to Frontier as a whole and begins to focus all her being on wanting Alto as a boyfriend. So at that particular stage, it is no wonder that the two VA's think that Ranka is a strong character, although I'd argue that Sheryl is still much more forceful.
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Old 2010-12-23, 09:37   Link #713
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Well, I'd say they must have changed their mind a few weeks after that. If you remember, Ranka being indecisive and meek and whatever wasn't a complaint at that point, at the contrary she was making her way into the entertainment industry and had shown a good amount of backbone doing so. Just up until episode 12-14 we had her on a steady progress in that direction.

It is only beginning with episode 15 that this process is reversed and Ranka begins to abandon her commitment to Frontier as a whole and begins to focus all her being on wanting Alto as a boyfriend. So at that particular stage, it is no wonder that the two VA's think that Ranka is a strong character, although I'd argue that Sheryl is still much more forceful.
Well...remember, the commentary was made for the DVD / Blu-Ray. I have no idea when they actually recorded the commentary, but the Macross F Vol. 4 came out in late November of 2008, more than two months after the show ended. As such, I assume that they'd already finished the show by the time they got around to doing the commentary.
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Old 2010-12-23, 10:06   Link #714
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It could be, but as the ideas promulgated just don't square at all with what was shown in the show ( and of course we could be dealing with a case of the intent being different from the result ), I remain somewhat doubtful.

If it was created after the end of the show, they must have known of the general criticism Rankas portrayal received. It just seems that there is a disconnect between their commentary and what they had to know was a negative perception of Rankas force of personality. My best answer to that condondrum is that the commentary was done before the latter part of the series and as such the VA's weren't aware of what was to come. Kawamori, OTOH...
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Old 2010-12-23, 10:27   Link #715
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It could be, but as the ideas promulgated just don't square at all with what was shown in the show ( and of course we could be dealing with a case of the intent being different from the result ), I remain somewhat doubtful.

If it was created after the end of the show, they must have known of the general criticism Rankas portrayal received. It just seems that there is a disconnect between their commentary and what they had to know was a negative perception of Rankas force of personality. My best answer to that condondrum is that the commentary was done before the latter part of the series and as such the VA's weren't aware of what was to come. Kawamori, OTOH...
Again, I'd argue that your perceptions of the show are of necessity filtered through your particular viewpoint. The intent may have been different from YOUR "result," but what YOU take away from the show isn't always what OTHERS will take away from it.

As for "general criticism" of Ranka, I think it depends on WHERE that general criticism was lodged. Or, more specifically, WHAT LANGUAGE it was lodged in. Most of the Ranka hatred I've seen comes from the western and Chinese fans, who I don't think are even a blip on the radar screen for the creators of Macross F. I'm not positive about that, of course, but that's the picture I'm getting from talking with Macross fans in Tokyo.

And, of course, my perceptions are filtered through my viewpoint, so I can't say my view has any more validity than yours.
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Old 2010-12-23, 10:38   Link #716
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True enough on all accounts. I'd check back with Tak for more certainty of the Japanese internet response to Ranka at the time, but it seems he has moved on from this board ( which is a shame. ).

If I remember his comments from back then correctly, though, Ranka wasn't being let off easy by the Japanese fans, either. Maybe someone else who is still here was reading those boards at the time and could shed some light on this?
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Old 2010-12-23, 10:45   Link #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
EDIT: I guess it's ALSO worth pointing out that this is the ONLY episode of Frontier to list Hiroshi Ohnogi in the credits.
Basically for Zero, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
To be honest, I just want to see Klan yelling at Michael.
Same here Can never have enough of them ^^

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Alto really is the weakest of the three. No wonder I don't like him that much.
I used to think that. To be honest though, now that I'm watching the series again whilst taking in other material (the novel, commentaries etc), I can see the development that has been written about elsewhere.

=====

Spoiler for set of quotes on Ranka...:

Macross Zero's BD was released on August 22, between the TV broadcasts of ep 20 (Aug 21) and ep 21 (Aug 28). Endou Aya seems to have borrowed the BD before they recorded this commentary, so I'd say the earliest it'd have been recorded would be sometime around the screening of ep 21? By this stage, the cast recordings for all of the episodes would definitely have been completed, so yes, I dare say they were all aware of future developments in the series.

I'd hazard a guess that they see Ranka's decisions not to be used as a tool, and to leave Frontier as part of her DECISIVE character. I don't know whether they'll ever touch on it again (the relevant episodes don't have any commentary...) but we'll see when we get there.

=====

I do want to post the very last snippet from the ep 25 commentary before the 2nd movie comes out though, so...

It's Kawamori, Nakamura, Endou Aya and Megumi-chan. In signing off, they talk about what they hope to see in the movie:

Spoiler for well, for length and moving ahead, I guess...:
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Old 2010-12-23, 10:55   Link #718
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'd hazard a guess that they see Ranka's decisions not to be used as a tool, and to leave Frontier as part of her DECISIVE character.
And I'd agree. The fact that her decision could have been made/planned better is not really the point, in this case. She showed a remarkable individuality, at that point in time - circa episode 21, I guess. But that's probably best left for when we get there, no?

Of course, I also agree with the notion that Ranka's criticism may not be and may never have been anywhere near as aggressive in Japan as it was here and in other forums. On that note, I think the differences of opinion bear much more validity, as no single side can claim full validity, after all.
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Old 2010-12-23, 11:02   Link #719
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And I don't think Chinese are harsh on Ranka either....there actually is a chinese site for Ranka fans

here

it's actually quite active and they collect plenty of Ranka pics
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I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2010-12-23, 11:06   Link #720
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True enough on all accounts. I'd check back with Tak for more certainty of the Japanese internet response to Ranka at the time, but it seems he has moved on from this board ( which is a shame. ).

If I remember his comments from back then correctly, though, Ranka wasn't being let off easy by the Japanese fans, either. Maybe someone else who is still here was reading those boards at the time and could shed some light on this?
Yeah...I remember him talking about that, too. I'd be curious to know which sites he was visiting.

And it may be that Ranka hate has merely died down. I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Basically for Zero, right?
He's listed for "scripting assistance" and the credit comes immediately before the "THANKS TO MACROSS ZERO STAFF" credit. So yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Macross Zero's BD was released on August 22, between the TV broadcasts of ep 20 (Aug 21) and ep 21 (Aug 28). Endou Aya seems to have borrowed the BD before they recorded this commentary, so I'd say the earliest it'd have been recorded would be sometime around the screening of ep 21? By this stage, the cast recordings for all of the episodes would definitely have been completed, so yes, I dare say they were all aware of future developments in the series.

I'd hazard a guess that they see Ranka's decisions not to be used as a tool, and to leave Frontier as part of her DECISIVE character. I don't know whether they'll ever touch on it again (the relevant episodes don't have any commentary...) but we'll see when we get there.
That's a good point...I think the problem is not that Ranka is indecisive...she's not. I think it's just that she's decisive about things that her detractors wish she weren't decisive about.
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