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Old 2010-12-24, 03:54   Link #20261
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
I think if we take the Closed Room Lecture from the Hollow Man / The Three Coffins, then there really can't be a closed room murder for reals. It all has to be a trick of some kind.
Bern even brings this up in Ep6, if I recall correctly.
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Old 2010-12-24, 04:08   Link #20262
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Bern even brings this up in Ep6, if I recall correctly.
Sort of. I don't recall her referencing the hollow man, but she says that the only options for for the murders by that point were "a closed room that's not really a closed room" and "the victims not really being dead inside the closed rooms". So basically only illusions were possible. Except for that last one maybe.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Are we... are we positive that's a good sign?
It's about 50/50 for me. Just wait and see... wait and see...

Didn't he say the same thing about Episode 7 though? Or was that an earlier blog about episode 8?
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Old 2010-12-24, 04:11   Link #20263
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Sort of. She didn't reference the hollow man. But she says that the only options for for the murders by that point were "a closed room that's not really a closed room" and "the victims not really being dead inside the closed rooms". So basically only illusions were possible. Except for that last one maybe.
She said "the illusion of a closed room" and "the illusion of a crime", specifically.

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Are we... are we positive that's a good sign?
It's good if he enjoyed writing it, right? (That probably means we're all being trolled. Again.)
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Old 2010-12-24, 04:24   Link #20264
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
She said "the illusion of a closed room" and "the illusion of a crime", specifically.
Nitpicking! Semantics! I said what she meant either way.
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Old 2010-12-24, 04:53   Link #20265
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Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
Wait, the final riddle of ep6? Isn't this easy with the Shkannontrice theory? Shannon escapes from window, becomes Kanon, saves Battler, hides in closet, then while in closet he becomes Shannon. "Kanon" no longer exists in the room, or anywhere else for that matter.
If Battler had really known the truth of Beato's game... shouldn't he have been able to come up with such a plan on his own, and quickly at that?
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Old 2010-12-24, 05:45   Link #20266
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Battler had really known the truth of Beato's game... shouldn't he have been able to come up with such a plan on his own, and quickly at that?
Lamda knew that move was available but doubted Battler would use it as it would expose a piece of Beatrice's heart or something like that.
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Old 2010-12-24, 05:45   Link #20267
Pika_power
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
If Battler had really known the truth of Beato's game... shouldn't he have been able to come up with such a plan on his own, and quickly at that?
The main pillar for Genius Battler theory.
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Old 2010-12-24, 06:11   Link #20268
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What's the Genius Battler theory?

*isn't familiar with the majority of theories running around....* Is there a central repository of these theories... would be a really awesome idea if there was.
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Old 2010-12-24, 06:39   Link #20269
Pika_power
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Originally Posted by Vylen View Post
What's the Genius Battler theory?

*isn't familiar with the majority of theories running around....* Is there a central repository of these theories... would be a really awesome idea if there was.
The entire logic error of EP6 was just a ploy by Battler to get Chick!Beato to regain her memories. He walked into it after saying things like "I bet the old Beatrice would know how to get me out of this!"
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Old 2010-12-24, 09:59   Link #20270
witchfan
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Are we... are we positive that's a good sign?

Let's not be pessimistic now! Without love........,
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Old 2010-12-24, 10:50   Link #20271
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Can you come up with a reason for why that happens, though?
Sure, I can come up with crazy theories, if you really want me to.

It's the construction of the real first twilight! Shannon probably didn't know Erika really killed them, so she wanted to make a true first twilight. After Shannon kills the other four in the room, (somehow she does this silently to avoid alerting the ones in the next room), she changes into Kanon's clothes because Shannon's are covered in blood. She then runs to the mansion and kills Battler as he escapes the room. Then she hears Erika fighting in the bathroom, so she sneaks in, locks the chain, and hides in the closet so she can ambush Erika. She changes into Shannon because she just saw Erika in the guest house as Shannon and wanted to surprise her.
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Old 2010-12-24, 11:54   Link #20272
Misuzu
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I only skimmed through the pages of this thread I missed while avoiding spoilers, so excuse me if this has been brought up.

I see a lot of other people think the Episode 7 Tea Party rings false. Since Bern presented this story as a way for Featherine to check her answers, I was wondering if there couldn't be some kind of logic error in the story, and that she intended to trap Featherine in a logic error she'd created, as revenge for Featherine doing the same thing to her. I don't have any strong evidence for it yet, aside from all the bizarre things about the Tea Party people in this thread have already pointed out, and Bern's repeated "goodbye forever" comments. Featherine doesn't appear in the characters section for 7 that I can see, I guess there's that.

If there's truth to this theory, I guess the logic error could be in the Clair narrated story as well- I just went with the Tea Party since it felt more blatantly off to me. A lot of people have suggested that large portions of Episode 7 are false, and I have to say I think Bern deliberately constructing stuff that way to trap Featherine is more interesting than Bern doing it just to troll.

It also sets things up for an interesting way to make choices in Episode 8- you could actually begin as Featherine and have to find your own way out of the logic error. A final showdown after an escape would also be a terrific end to Bern's character. What it means for the main story, I can't really say.
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Old 2010-12-24, 12:07   Link #20273
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http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/117281S00017.jpg

If someone is interested, this is a screenshot for the japanese red truth in ep3 which was discussed in the other thread. About the counter thing, well...
I guess it really is depending of how you interpret this at this point, but I don't like it... Even the context doesn't go in this way at all, so...


(I put it here because to me, it is not directly related to requiem, and can be interesting even for people who didn't read it.)

Quote:
It's the construction of the real first twilight! Shannon probably didn't know Erika really killed them, so she wanted to make a true first twilight. After Shannon kills the other four in the room, (somehow she does this silently to avoid alerting the ones in the next room), she changes into Kanon's clothes because Shannon's are covered in blood. She then runs to the mansion and kills Battler as he escapes the room. Then she hears Erika fighting in the bathroom, so she sneaks in, locks the chain, and hides in the closet so she can ambush Erika. She changes into Shannon because she just saw Erika in the guest house as Shannon and wanted to surprise her.
This theory implies the ""rather useful"" personality switch (which are not even personalities anymore, in fact) at will, with the "surprise her" in the end...

Last edited by Axilios; 2010-12-24 at 12:27.
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Old 2010-12-24, 14:11   Link #20274
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Originally Posted by Misuzu View Post
A lot of people have suggested that large portions of Episode 7 are false, and I have to say I think Bern deliberately constructing stuff that way to trap Featherine is more interesting than Bern doing it just to troll.
Episode 7 repeatedly warned against ignoring the heart of the mystery. Umineko is not a traditional mystery but it’s still a mystery none the less.
Throughout the core arcs of this story Ryukishi has been consistently building up one character, more than any other, to play the role of villain. The problem is that she’s a witch.
Can the motive of a witch be reached by logical deductions? It shouldn’t be too much of a problem for us now that we understand the nature of the game board, witches, and magic.

Bernkastel is doing it just to troll or escape boredom? I hope there’s a better answer.

Oh, and this has been bugging me...
Spoiler for Bern/Lambda:
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Old 2010-12-24, 15:06   Link #20275
loctar87
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Originally Posted by Axilios View Post
This theory implies the ""rather useful"" personality switch (which are not even personalities anymore, in fact) at will, with the "surprise her" in the end...
Yeah...I couldn't really think of good reason for her to switch to Shannon at that point that made any sense. A better explanation is that she changes from Kanon to Yasu/Beato at that point. Appearing before Erika as the witch before killing her would be a lot of fun. Maybe Beato's dress just happens to be in that closet.
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Old 2010-12-24, 15:52   Link #20276
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Oh, and this has been bugging me...
Spoiler for Bern/Lambda:
I noticed this line too. If you were to take it seriously, it could suggest that Lambda is Bern's furniture. I don't think Bern could have multiple personalities like Yasu, but Lambda could be something similar to Sakutarou; an imaginary friend who takes on life in the witch's world.
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Old 2010-12-24, 16:09   Link #20277
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So, with Ep 8 a few days away, I wanted to write down all of my thoughts before I get the answer.

The first thought is, that episode 7 is an important confirmation.

Although there is also a constant culprit, all four of the siblings are capable of and do, throughout the various tales, commit murder.

In Episode 2, Rosa is involved with the murders.
In Episode 3, Eva and Hideyoshi and Rudolf and Kyrie are involved with the murders.
In Episode 4, most of the family is involved in the murders.

Basically, what Episode 7 shows is that the problem of the inheritance combined with the situation of the island, makes murder inevitable. Kyrie and Rudolf appear to be the bad guys, but they were merely ahead of the curve. Kyrie even says so.

Evidence.
In Episode 2 we have the riddle of the Chapel door and the envelope.

The truth of that trick is this: "The Chapel was never locked to begin with. The lock is the illusion. Rosa made a big show of getting the Key, but the truth is, the door was never locked." The red text merely says that "when the door is locked entry or exit is possible". But no where does it say that the door is locked. She works with the Epitaph killers to kill off the other heirs, the Epitaph killer then continues and spares Rosa, Genji, Battler, and Maria.

In Episode 3 we are shown that Eva commits murders. The Epitaph killer(s) come after and place the stakes. Given that Rudolf and Kyrie suspect Hideyoshi, it's likely they kill him and are then later killed by either the Epitaph killer(s) or Eva.

In Episode 4 Krauss works with the Epitaph killers but is betrayed by them later and killed. He throws Kinzo's corpse into the dining hall and fires. Natsuhi is not killed at this point in time, her body is moved there later. The scenes basically unfold as shown.

So, the Epitaph killers:

Who are Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice?

They are Yasu and Jessica, the two children that Natsuhi was forced to raise.

It goes like this, Natsuhi is infertile and has no possibility of giving birth. She is given Yasu, the daughter (or son) of Beatrice. She essentially throws her/him off a cliff. That child is saved by Nanjo, however, s/he is mutilated badly at the waist, and is no longer capable of reproduction (as shown in the "guts" of the story). This child grows up as a servant, originally Shannon.

Then Rudolf gets two women pregnant, both of the kids are to be named Battler. He raises Kyrie's son Battler as part of the family, and he brings the problem to Kinzo. Kinzo requires Krauss and Natsuhi to raise this child. Natsuhi, wracked with guilt from what she believes is a murder, takes this child, as does Krauss, as it is the only way his headship will be secure. However, they do not treat this daughter as their own child. They rename her Jessica, but her real name is Battler.

In the meantime, servants circulate in and out of the house, most of them are young girls. They are possibly there as mistresses for Kinzo.

The two girls, Jessica and "Shannon" bond over their mutual hardships. Neither has been raised with love. The only time they ever are actually happy is during the family conference, where they play with Battler and George. Love triangles develop. Battler leaves.

Kinzo, at some point, makes advances on at least Jessica, and likely Yasu as well. In short, he rapes them or at least Jessica. Krauss and Natsuhi turn a blind eye to it, out of fear of losing the inheritance, the servants keep it a secret as well, as they have done in the past.

Jessica and "Shannon", due to Battler's absence and the trauma of Kinzo's unwanted affections, create "Kanon" together. Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa all work with them to create the illusion of "Kanon". The reason they cooperate is because they know "Shannon" is genderless, and see this as a potential for her/him to find themselves.

However, "Kanon" is not played by just "Shannon", but is created and played by both Jessica and "Shannon". Since they have the cooperation of the three servants, it's not too difficult. People just have to take turns pretending that one of them is with them. It's hardest during the family conference, but even then, not impossible. That also makes it possible for any combination of the two of them to appear together, but never all three at once.

Beatrice is also created at this time, as Jessica and Shannon want to expand their imaginary world. This theme is touched on in novels 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Particularly 4.

They work together to execute many pranks on the Island and to make "Beatrice" more real.

Eventually, Kinzo posts the Epitaph. Yasu solves it. Kinzo dies. Yasu now has the ability to get revenge on the family. She shares it with Jessica.

So we have these two girls with a grudge against the Family. Yasu has at this point, probably moved on from Battler. She was able to hide most everything from George, however, when he describes his dream life, it clearly includes children, something she can't have. Frustrated, she realizes love is impossible for her. She resolves to commit the murders and take revenge after 19 years of neglect and the torment of living in a body that cannot love.

Jessica's life got harder after Kinzo died. They swept away the abuse under a rug and constantly pointed out Jessica's short comings. There is also probably something with Battler here, probably connected to his Sin (where he does mention "a girl like Jessica" as his ideal and its unclear which of the two he is talking too). Jessica probably discovers around this time that she is Battler-chan (This is why they were able to say "Battler-Kun is not the culprit and why the -kun suffix HAS to be added.), Battler's half-sister born from Asumu.

So, Jessica resolves to kill at this family conference, working with Yasu to pull off the closed room murders. However, Battler returns and Jessica, is unable to kill Battler, at least, not without explaining things to him. Battler's sin may be not recognizing Jessica. I'll go through exactly how this works. For all of the below scenarios, assume that Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa are all accomplices.

Also assume that in addition to all of the guilt they felt for allowing both Jessica and Yasu to be brutalized, they were allowed to give a significant fortune to their children (Cash Cards, like the one given to Nanjo's son in ep 4).

In Episode 1, Jessica stays with and protects Battler to the end (Jessica may or may not know about the bomb). However, she never gets a chance to explain the truth to him. Yasu, possibly with the help of Krauss, commits the murders of the first game. Natsuhi reads a letter from Yasu, that reminds her about throwing a baby off a cliff and tells her that Krauss is actually dead. She is shot, the bomb goes off, and the game ends.

In Episode 2, Yasu and Jessica successfully carry out the murders with the help of Rosa, promising her a share of the Gold. They immediately kill those with strong claims to the Gold. However, Jessica protects Battler throughout the game. Her and Yasu fake their own deaths in Jessica's room. Nanjo assists. This is why the red text has to include whoops "Jessica is also in the room". Kanon's death here is an illusion, however, he is killed in that room, metaphorically. They then leave the room and continue to commit murders. Jessica, realizing that Yasu plans to kill even Battler, betrays Yasu at this point. She then has Genji bring Battler up to the study where she explains everything to him. Whether known to her or not, the bomb goes off after.

In Episode 3, Eva commits the murders after the initial closed rooms. The initial closed rooms are sloppy because the seals were done by someone other than Yasu/Jessica who were both required to play bodies. Shannon and Kanon can both be called dead if their maker Yasu, wills it. This is why Beatrice is able to overcome all closed rooms (red text from episode 2). Jessica remains with Battler until the end, arranges for the birth date to be written, and tries to get him to figure out the connection, but he doesn't.

In Episode 4, with Krauss's lie exposed, things fall apart and most of the family is murdering each other. Amidst the chaos, the epitaph murderers ally with varying sides, probably promising the Gold, since they have a lot of accomplices, they end up winning. However, Yasu is killed, probably by Jessica.

Episode 4 is the most important because it very clearly squares away Jessica as the person who represented themselves as Beatrice and demanded Battler to remember his sin.

Here are the reasons that she, the second to last to die, is Jessica.

1) Battler, our detective, is told that there are keys outside of the chapel, this means the mansion itself is a closed room at this point. There is no means of getting in or out of the mansion.

2) The body of Shannon is found outside in the rain gutter. While both Jessica and Yasu can be Kanon, only Yasu can be Shannon. Even if they can both be Kanon and Shannon, Jessica's body is found inside the closed room mansion.

3) Jessica, who had her words confirmed in red, predicted the manner of her own death. She also stated that she witnessed the murder of George. Even Battler deduced it would be impossible for her to see it from her room. Her witnessing George establishes her chronology as a late game death.

She is able to predict the manner of her death because she is the one that causes it. After Jessica gives Battler his test, and after he fails, she is distraught. She returns to her room, locks the door (creating a closed room), kills Genji or has his corpse there, and then kills herself with a gun. The method used is the exact same as the method used by Justice Wargrave, from And Then There Were None.

4) Jessica's closed room is only explainable by a suicide. They are also careful with the red text clarifying suicides when Beatrice says "at the time I said the red, there were no suicides".

tl:dr-

A family ready to kill out of greed, two girls, one who still wants to tell Battler about their connection, the other who stopped caring. "Kanon" and "Shannon" can be killed and revived endlessly, the two of them are able to overcome any closed room.
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Old 2010-12-24, 16:12   Link #20278
AuraTwilight
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Can you come up with a reason for why that happens, though?
It's part of the script of the fake murder game, duh.

Quote:
Oh, and this has been bugging me...
So what? Lambda is Bern's ultra-stalker.

@Mirrored's big TL;DR: Hahaha, no way like any of that is true. It contradicts the evidence way too much.
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Old 2010-12-24, 16:20   Link #20279
Cao Ni Ma
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I have to agree, murdering for greed or to a lesser degree love is overplayed, hopefully EP8 has a good twist. Although given the circumstances I dont see how it would play out actually! Also how would a rei like chapter come along in the umineko universe? Some sort of 4th wall breaking event with all the characters a la first tea party?
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Old 2010-12-24, 16:40   Link #20280
Ssol
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Jessica probably discovers around this time that she is Battler-chan (This is why they were able to say "Battler-Kun is not the culprit and why the -kun suffix HAS to be added.), Battler's half-sister born from Asumu.
That was like way out of the blue. How did she find this out?
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Jessica's closed room is only explainable by a suicide.
What happened to the gun?

I have to agree with others that it's a bit too far out there to be true. Good effort though.
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