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Old 2010-12-24, 16:54   Link #20281
loctar87
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Regarding the long post about Jessica being the other Battler. There is a red truth in the way of your theory: All people can only use their own names!! You're trying to get around this with "kun" vs "chan" but that doesn't seem very plausible to me.

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Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
Episode 4 is the most important because it very clearly squares away Jessica as the person who represented themselves as Beatrice and demanded Battler to remember his sin.

Here are the reasons that she, the second to last to die, is Jessica.

1) Battler, our detective, is told that there are keys outside of the chapel, this means the mansion itself is a closed room at this point. There is no means of getting in or out of the mansion.

2) The body of Shannon is found outside in the rain gutter. While both Jessica and Yasu can be Kanon, only Yasu can be Shannon. Even if they can both be Kanon and Shannon, Jessica's body is found inside the closed room mansion.

3) Jessica, who had her words confirmed in red, predicted the manner of her own death. She also stated that she witnessed the murder of George. Even Battler deduced it would be impossible for her to see it from her room. Her witnessing George establishes her chronology as a late game death.

She is able to predict the manner of her death because she is the one that causes it. After Jessica gives Battler his test, and after he fails, she is distraught. She returns to her room, locks the door (creating a closed room), kills Genji or has his corpse there, and then kills herself with a gun. The method used is the exact same as the method used by Justice Wargrave, from And Then There Were None.

4) Jessica's closed room is only explainable by a suicide. They are also careful with the red text clarifying suicides when Beatrice says "at the time I said the red, there were no suicides".
1) This is nonsense. Even if Battler cannot get into the mansion, Beatrice can get out. It's not locking her in.

2) Yasu wasn't killed by Jessica, she killed herself after her meeting with Battler. I imagine the grates of the well were big enough to let a gun fall through.

3) Doesn't mean she's a culprit. Just means she saw George die and knew she was next. Maybe George was shot after denying that witches exist, and Jessica was trying to help Battler avoid that fate.

4) Unless someone unlocks the door, shoots Jessica, then locks the door.
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:01   Link #20282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
Sure, I can come up with crazy theories, if you really want me to.

It's the construction of the real first twilight! Shannon probably didn't know Erika really killed them, so she wanted to make a true first twilight. After Shannon kills the other four in the room, (somehow she does this silently to avoid alerting the ones in the next room), she changes into Kanon's clothes because Shannon's are covered in blood. She then runs to the mansion and kills Battler as he escapes the room. Then she hears Erika fighting in the bathroom, so she sneaks in, locks the chain, and hides in the closet so she can ambush Erika. She changes into Shannon because she just saw Erika in the guest house as Shannon and wanted to surprise her.
Wait, what? You really think a random person that lands on the island runs around killing people?
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:05   Link #20283
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Wait, what? You really think a random person that lands on the island runs around killing people?
Um, it was confirmed with the red truth that Erika killed them. If you're going to look at it from that angle, isn't suspicious that a random person landed on the island at all?
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:22   Link #20284
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It sure is suspicious. I don't think Erika can be a real person.

If she is a real live person, then it just doesn't make any sense that she goes around killing people she doesn't even know. With all of the emphasis placed on motives and heart in these games, I just can't accept a random person murders people.
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:30   Link #20285
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Remember, her profile said she fell off a boat at the same time as the Ushiromiya explosion. Because of the higher profile of the explosion, people forgot about Erika being missing. People, including her family, speculated that she washed up on Rokkenjima but no evidence of that possibility was found by the police. People then decided to speculate that she indeed was.

It doesn't make much sense for her to be the real killer - assuming she lives and is washed up onto the island, what person who looks like they're in high school goes around randomly killing the people who helped them, heh.
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:35   Link #20286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
It sure is suspicious. I don't think Erika can be a real person.

If she is a real live person, then it just doesn't make any sense that she goes around killing people she doesn't even know. With all of the emphasis placed on motives and heart in these games, I just can't accept a random person murders people.
If you think of Erika as a piece on the gameboard separate from meta-Erika, then I don't think you have any choice but to accept that it's random murders. There are many reasons why she might have killed them, but we weren't given any clues about it.

But from the beginning it seems like there is no piece Erika, just meta-Erika descending onto the gameboard. Meta-Erika has a reason to kill them: to trap Battler in the logic error. In that sense, I agree that Erika was probably not a real person.
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:42   Link #20287
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Huh? So now a magical person invades reality? I guess if you assume none of the events are real, then you don't have to worry about anything. But then it isn't even a mystery anymore.

Accepting random murders doesn't sound like a good way to solve anything.

And how do you justify the 17/18 numbers at the end up 6?
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:52   Link #20288
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Huh? So now a magical person invades reality? I guess if you assume none of the events are real, then you don't have to worry about anything. But then it isn't even a mystery anymore.

Accepting random murders doesn't sound like a good way to solve anything.

And how do you justify the 17/18 numbers at the end up 6?
It just depends on your point of view. You can count Shannon and Kanon separately, or you can count them as one person.
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Old 2010-12-24, 17:56   Link #20289
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That doesn't explain how you get all the numbers to add up.

If you count them seperately, there cannot be 17 people, because Erika is there.
If you count them as 1 person, then the 18th human does not make sense.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:09   Link #20290
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
That doesn't explain how you get all the numbers to add up.

If you count them seperately, there cannot be 17 people, because Erika is there.
If you count them as 1 person, then the 18th human does not make sense.
This game has repeatedly emphasized that multiple truths can exist at the same time. Remember Erika's speech when she thought she had cornered Beato at the end of Ep6? While any one truth may be "true", it's incomplete if its all you can see. You may not be able to have 18 people and 17 people at the same time, but you can count 18 from one point of view, and 17 from another.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:16   Link #20291
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Right, now can you explain to me the points of view you're using to count those? I'm saying they don't work.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:16   Link #20292
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Just wondering, since it's slightly relevant, if Shannon and Kanon are supposedly the same person, wouldn't a more correct answer be that there are no more than 16 people on the island?
Couldn't that technically leave room for one more if there are supposed to be, at the most, 17 people on the island, such as Erika?
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:16   Link #20293
Cao Ni Ma
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You walk inside a room and there are 18 people in it, 17 on one side and 1 in another. You invite the one thats alone to join to the bigger group, are there 17 people inside the room?
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:21   Link #20294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Dream View Post
Just wondering, since it's slightly relevant, if Shannon and Kanon are supposedly the same person, wouldn't a more correct answer be that there are no more than 16 people on the island?
Couldn't that technically leave room for one more if there are supposed to be 17 people on the island, such as Erika?
The fact is that Erika being a real person and performing the murders makes no sense.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:23   Link #20295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Right, now can you explain to me the points of view you're using to count those? I'm saying they don't work.
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
You walk inside a room and there are 18 people in it, 17 on one side and 1 in another. You invite the one thats alone to join to the bigger group, are there 17 people inside the room?
Like I said, you can count Kanon and Shannon as 2 people or you can count them as one. Your complaint seems to be "But I can't count them as 1 and 2 at the same time!", which makes absolutely no sense to me, and I don't think it ever will.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:30   Link #20296
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"♫The red is a truth, from a certain point of view!♫" :D
Yes, even though reds should be objective to Umineko, it often has multiple subjective interpretations.... Which in the end, makes no sense to me either.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:32   Link #20297
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So to you, saying "There are 17 people in the room" even though there are actually 18 people in the room, is true?

If someone asked me how many people were in the room, and I said "17", I would be wrong. There are actually 18. But you're saying I'm still right?
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:36   Link #20298
loctar87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Dream View Post
"♫The red is a truth, from a certain point of view!♫"
Yes, even though reds should be objective to Umineko, it often has multiple subjective interpretations.... Which in the end, makes no sense to me either.
Well, I wouldn't so far as to say that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father.The red truth is objective. When Battler tried to say he was Asumu's son with the red, he failed. So subjective truth is no good. But you can objectively count 17 or 18 depending on how you are counting. In other words, it depends on the definition of what a person is.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:37   Link #20299
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How about instead of a group, it's another small room inside of a room. They're 17 people located in the small one, while the 18th person is in the outside room. Now, are there 18 people in the room, or 17? It really just depends if your view is from the inside room, or the big one.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:40   Link #20300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
But you can objectively count 17 or 18 depending on how you are counting. In others, it depends on the definition of what a person is.
Sorry, this line just cracked me up.

If you're doing it objectively, you're going to get the same number every time.

Now, maybe if you were to say "I will count all personas in the game" and "I will count all live humans in the game" you could get different numbers, sure.

What you're trying to sell me is:
"I will count all personas" and then "I will count all personas except Shannon".
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