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Old 2010-12-24, 18:41   Link #20301
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
So to you, saying "There are 17 people in the room" even though there are actually 18 people in the room, is true?

If someone asked me how many people were in the room, and I said "17", I would be wrong. There are actually 18. But you're saying I'm still right?
Technically its true, there are 17 people in that room. You never stated there are only 17 people in it, its misleading but thats what the red is used for.
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:45   Link #20302
AuraTwilight
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In the Sixth Gameboard, there are 18 people. However, Erika does not exist, so the true count is 17.

Duh.

As for Erika, she's a fictional character. A fictional character portrayed as a meta-entity descending to a gameboard. You say that's not mystery? Well, alright. Good thing the sixth game is "not a mystery, but a confession" huh?
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:48   Link #20303
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So you're saying Erika is a different kind of fictional character from Kanon, and doesn't count when we're counting up all characters on the island?
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Old 2010-12-24, 18:54   Link #20304
loctar87
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
Sorry, this line just cracked me up.

If you're doing it objectively, you're going to get the same number every time.

Now, maybe if you were to say "I will count all personas in the game" and "I will count all live humans in the game" you could get different numbers, sure.

What you're trying to sell me is:
"I will count all personas" and then "I will count all personas except Shannon".
Look, if you ask the question "Are Shannon and Kanon different people?" (i.e. are they 2 people or 1 person), the answer is going to depend on how you define what a person is. There is definitely only one body, but Yasu has rather distinctly partitioned them so they have different knowledge, different personalities, etc. If the answer is both yes and no, then the number of people on the island is both 17 and 18.
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Old 2010-12-24, 19:00   Link #20305
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
So you're saying Erika is a different kind of fictional character from Kanon, and doesn't count when we're counting up all characters on the island?
Erika and Kanon are in slightly different situations. Erika never existed there in the first place, while Kanon exists partially, allowing him to be counted. (Somehow...)
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Old 2010-12-24, 19:02   Link #20306
Cao Ni Ma
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A person that doesn't exist at all and yet kills people? I can see a partially existing person partially killing someone but how can person that doesn't exist kill someone? So if Erika doesn't exist in EP6 we should discard all of it, no point of having that episode.
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Old 2010-12-24, 19:32   Link #20307
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There are seventeen people. Erika is the eighteenth person. I fail to see the problem here.

If I have a bowl of oranges, and there are seventeen oranges in it, if I add in another orange, that doesn't change the fact that "There are seventeen oranges in the bowl". It changes the fact "There are NO MORE THAN seventeen oranges in the bowl", but I can state there are seventeen, sixteen or three oranges in the bowl, because it's still true.


On the topic of Erika killing the FT victims: I propose my "Jessica is a candlestick" interpretation. In the same way that Mr. Green killed the master in the dining room with the candle stick, META-Erika killed the FT victims using the Jessica (for example). It was Meta-Erika's decision that got them killed, so it counts. It's a way to interpret it.
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Old 2010-12-24, 20:43   Link #20308
Cao Ni Ma
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Haha, this has probably been mentioned but I just had an insight regarding the name Lion and why it was important to be spelled the way it was according to RK, its yet another Jesus allusion. Lion of Judah, so thats Yaso, Yasu , Yoshida and Lion what IS he trying to tell us

Really....what is he trying to tell us...
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Old 2010-12-24, 20:48   Link #20309
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
That was like way out of the blue. How did she find this out?
What happened to the gun?

I have to agree with others that it's a bit too far out there to be true. Good effort though.
1) What happened to the gun?

Read my post. Justice Wargrave in "And Then There Were None", a book that HEAVILY influences Umineko, makes his death look like a murder using string and a revolver. It's the same deal. Really easy trick.

2) Red Truth.

Red Truth "All people can only use their own names!!!!"

That's a useless truth. Kanon's name belongs to both Yasu and Jessica, as Kanon is a joint creation.

We already know there are two Battlers. As we have one who is born from Asumu, and one who isn't. There is a second Battler.

3) Jessica probably found out about her own birth from Nanjo, who helped with the switch, or from Krauss and Natsuhi who do not love her and told her out of spite.

4) Loktar. You're making an argument and not stating facts. "The person who posed as Beatrice killed themselves after talking to Battler" is a fact. Saying that person is "Yasu" is an argument. So, what you're saying is, that after she talks to Battler she leaps off the mansion runs with a stake into a drainage ditch and kills herself? That's infinitely less plausible than Jessica going back to her room and shooting herself with the same trick used in And Then There Were None.

4a) Your answer is still possible because Battler proved you could go down the study from the window. I don't remember if he ever checks the study to see if the windows are locked. I remember him saying there was no way in or out. However, why in the world would she run all the way into a drainage ditch. Jessica's suicide makes sense, she kills herself in her own room. Yasu's suicide doesn't-- its in the middle of nowhere.


5) Fine, she could have just witnessed. Doesn't change anything else.

6) Works too, but someone was in the mansion when they spoke to Battler and so their body should be in there too.

I don't think the theory is particularly outlandish, although personally I don't like Shkannon that much, if we are given Shkannon as a fact, then this is pretty much how it has to happen.

My excuse for Shkannon is the only plausible one I've heard. The main failure for Shkannon is "How do you hide that for THREE years?" The only answer is if we have a few people in on it.

--

Thematically, the text supports a lot of my interpretation. Ep 8 is probably going to be more of a solution episode where Battler attempts to fix his broken family and get them all out alive.

But hopefully we see the answer and get a look at it.

Basically, doubting Ep 7's interpretation is the equivalent of trying to pin the crime on a witch. Whether we call them a culprit or a witch, they are a convenient out for the real problem.

That all of the siblings are capable of and ready to murder. Yeah, we can blame Beatrice, but the crimes happen even in a world where she doesn't exist and there is no plot to kill.

Truth is:

Krauss is a bully who lied to his brothers and sisters about the death of their father to hide the fact that he was stealing money. Natsuhi was complicit in this lie.

Eva is ambitious, arrogant, and would do anything to make sure the headship came their way. Hideyoshi is her pushover husband. They desperately need money or they are going to go broke.

Rosa is an abusive mother who has debts, a kid, and believes that money would give her the freedom to get remarried.

Rudolf is a cheating liar who leads two lives, continually gets chicks knocked up, swindles people out of money, and desperately needs money or he too will go broke.

Kyrie is probably a sociopath. The very best that can be said about her is that she has been in love with Rudolf for over 18 years and has been determined to get together with him. However, she would be ready to kill him if she thought he was a risk to her.

That's the family. That is who they are. Even with Yasu gone, they still murder each other, and murder her. Because they have really big problems.
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Old 2010-12-24, 20:51   Link #20310
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Haha, this has probably been mentioned but I just had an insight regarding the name Lion and why it was important to be spelled the way it was according to RK, its yet another Jesus allusion. Lion of Judah, so thats Yaso, Yasu , Yoshida and Lion what IS he trying to tell us

Really....what is he trying to tell us...
But wait... the "Lion of Judah" is pronounced normally like the animal, Lion is pronounced as "Lee-on".
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Old 2010-12-24, 20:53   Link #20311
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You mean Judah, which originally was "Yehuda" is very similar sounding to Yasuda... especially since the original Yehuda translated into Japanese is イェフダ (Yefuda), for example with:

Judah Loew ben Bezalel
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/イェフダ・レーヴ・ベン・ベザレル
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Old 2010-12-24, 20:57   Link #20312
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That still looks a little fa fetched to me...
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:00   Link #20313
Cao Ni Ma
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Yes, Jessica knew how her head would be blown in half when she pulled the trigger and thats more plausible than someone knowing she said that and making it look just like what she said in the telephone call.

Small question, if Jessica was really Yasu and she inherited the ring and title, why didn't she just say "Guess what, get out of my island" to her parents?
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:08   Link #20314
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
1) What happened to the gun?

Read my post. Justice Wargrave in "And Then There Were None", a book that HEAVILY influences Umineko, makes his death look like a murder using string and a revolver. It's the same deal. Really easy trick.
I read your post. Even if the same trick were used from "And Then There Were None" the gun would have been in the hallway.

I'll ask again: What happened to the gun?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
2) Red Truth.

Red Truth "All people can only use their own names!!!!"

That's a useless truth. Kanon's name belongs to both Yasu and Jessica, as Kanon is a joint creation.

We already know there are two Battlers. As we have one who is born from Asumu, and one who isn't. There is a second Battler.
You are twisting red truth to benefit your theory and not making any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
3) Jessica probably found out about her own birth from Nanjo, who helped with the switch, or from Krauss and Natsuhi who do not love her and told her out of spite.
What? Where was it stated that Krauss or Natsuhi did not love her?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
Krauss is a bully who lied to his brothers and sisters about the death of their father to hide the fact that he was stealing money. Natsuhi was complicit in this lie.

Eva is ambitious, arrogant, and would do anything to make sure the headship came their way. Hideyoshi is her pushover husband. They desperately need money or they are going to go broke.

Rosa is an abusive mother who has debts, a kid, and believes that money would give her the freedom to get remarried.

Rudolf is a cheating liar who leads two lives, continually gets chicks knocked up, swindles people out of money, and desperately needs money or he too will go broke.

Kyrie is probably a sociopath. The very best that can be said about her is that she has been in love with Rudolf for over 18 years and has been determined to get together with him. However, she would be ready to kill him if she thought he was a risk to her.

That's the family. That is who they are. Even with Yasu gone, they still murder each other, and murder her. Because they have really big problems.
I agree with you that this is one messed up family. However, you haven't even come close to showing how any one of them would be capable of mass murder.
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:09   Link #20315
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
But wait... the "Lion of Judah" is pronounced normally like the animal, Lion is pronounced as "Lee-on".
Im well aware of that, when WH asked RK about the name Lion they suggested alternate spellings for it. As far as I remember ( I could be wrong), RK specifically said that it was Lion. There might as well be a hint as to what the author is trying to tell us considering the other cases of the personas names. All of them seem to allude to Jesus.

VVV
il leone di giuda

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-12-24 at 21:23.
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:20   Link #20316
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I thought it was more of the fact that "Lion" is kind of Italian.
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:22   Link #20317
Mirrored
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
I read your post. Even if the same trick were used from "And Then There Were None" the gun would have been in the hallway.

I'll ask again: What happened to the gun?

You are twisting red truth to benefit your theory and not making any sense.

What? Where was it stated that Krauss or Natsuhi did not love her?

I agree with you that this is one messed up family. However, you haven't even come close to showing how any one of them would be capable of mass murder.
I am capable of mass murder. You are capable of mass murder. The point of Higurashi, Umineko, etc is that people who are just plain people are ALL capable of murder.

In the beginning we get a scene with Will where he talks about motives to kill.

It specifically mentions "money problems" as a factor. And we get to see in Episode 7 that they all do in fact kill each other over the gold.

We are talking about a card with about 100 million us dollars on it, and gold worth about another billion US dollars.

There are many people who have committed murder for far less, and Episode 4 even goes line item person by person and shows that they all are really hard up for cash and stand to lose everything if they don't get it.

Hitmen typically do jobs for much less money. So, when you have a family full of problems with an opportunity to be one of the richest people on earth, it's a recipe for what happens.

I'll turn the question around, only because I believe the entire series shows them to be capable of murder (Lying about the death of a father, swindling people for money, abusing children, trying to oust your brother from his inheritance by having a baby--).

Where does it ever show the siblings not hating one another or manipulating each other in power games?

Episode 7, is the truth, at least, it's basically an important truth.

Lion does die. Doesn't matter that she didn't plan it. The siblings are ready to kill.

Kyrie even says in Episode 6 that she would have killed Asumu. She very plainly says "Yes, I am capable of murder".
---

So, if Shkannon is true, I think I've provided the only plausible expectation of how it works. The alternative eschews Jessica, which is pretty ridiculous.

And it is very clear that Shkannon is genderless, if we believe the guts of the story where we have Yasu screaming at Nanjo about a body that can't love.

Also, other answers don't address why Battlers birthday appears on the door (and why it's the 8 digit pin for the bank cards).

Ultimately, we're a week away from an answer and I look forward to it.
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:27   Link #20318
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I think maybe the issue is that the siblings running around killing each other is at best a murder 2 scenario. That is non-premeditated, spontaneous act of murder.

I think we're all looking for a murder 1 scenario, besides supposedly Yasu planning it, (which we kinda doubt.) Who could have planned the murder ahead of time and executed it, knowing all the factors in play?

With just the siblings, it doesn't seem like there's enough murder to go around...
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:30   Link #20319
Cao Ni Ma
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Money problems is the most tired excuse to commit a crime, unless you can spin an elaborate case where a suspect that you weren't expecting to commit those crimes for that reason ends up doing it. Thats why any of the adults actually pulling this off for it seems so impossible, of course this is in respects to the detective mystery genre. Its too easy a solution and ends up disappointing the reader.

I'd personally would rather have Gorge or Jessica be the culprit than any of the adults, but Erika's fake why dunnit for Nats was ok, totally wasn't expecting that
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Old 2010-12-24, 21:36   Link #20320
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Originally Posted by Mirrored View Post
*snip*
I would love to hear your argument in court:
"All humans are capable of murder. Therefore, the family murdered each other."

I'm not saying that the family didn't murder each other but you have not presented enough evidence to finger any of the adults.

Don't give me that Kyrie quote from episode 6. Show me evidence from the question arcs.

Also, claiming that you have provided the only plausible explanation for Shkanon is absurd. I've seen better back when we were discussing it before episode 6. It's so easy for you guys to jump on the bandwagon when Jan-Poo, myself, and others were trying to figure it out before there were any solid hints from the core arcs.
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