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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 232 64.44%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 92 25.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.94%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.94%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 360. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-12-26, 20:02   Link #501
Clarste
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Old 2010-12-26, 21:22   Link #502
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Whatever the take on this, it still leave a gaping logic hole.
The POINT of the show is how Haruhi is an enigma of cosmic proportion that every faction wants to have a hold on it for one reason or another (keeping the world from being destroyed, learning from her unique case/etc.).
If Yuki was able to bascially take control and manage Haruhi's powers, then it means that she's able to do precisely what everyone wants to do. That just doesn't make sense.
Former point of the series it would seem. Anyway this is the first topic I feel like discussing with people in this thread for a long long time. Thanks for bringing this up again since it's only appropriate now that we've all seen the definitive version of the movie.

I've tried going over this exact same point with people (operative word being tried) and happen to agree completely that it doesn't really add up no matter how you try to spin it. It seems to contradict everything we've been told about the relationship between Haruhi, The Data Entity and Yuki Nagato circa volume 1. Indeed it makes no logical sense why if the Data Entity's emissary can just absorb Haruhi's power to create new data that the Data Entity couldn't just do the same and comprehend her powers through first hand experience since that is it's stated goal way back in volume 1 as established through one of Nagato's expository monologues. We're talking about a being who has another extension in Asakura Ryoko who doesn't subscribe to the idea of morality, the rights of the test subject, or sitting back to take mental notes in a largely uncontrolled experiment like Yuki Nagato did in the first season and who had no problem with trying to kill an innocent bystander in order to provoke Haruhi into a quick reaction so she could try to study and understand her completely in a relative controlled experiment. It stands to reason that the Data Entity could have just as easily made Ryoko the leader instead of Yuki, had Ryoko absorb Haruhi's powers and then just fiddle around with them herself in controlled experiments to try and understand their nature. Not to say Yuki wasn't capable of the same thing since we just witnessed it in this movie.

That's kind of a huge problem I had with this movie because it appears to retcon a lot of what the author took such a long time to establish in the first 3 novels about why Haruhi must just be allowed to run rampant in the eyes of Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi. Also it's like the author doesn't truly comprehend the nature of the scientific method and how information and meaning is derived from our surroundings after all....then again should I really expect that from a light novel? This movie to me kind of marks the clear boundary where the Haruhi franchise makes a transition from firmer science fiction concepts to pure fantasy and character wish fulfillment like what can be found in just about any other light novel adaptation. It's more fuel to the fire for my theory that the main reason this story exists the way it does is because the author needed some way to portray the breakout character Yuki Nagato as a moe object for her fans in order to draw extra attention to the next full length storyline in the series....which I swear seems like the main reason this novel is the fan favourite in the series and not the first arguably tighter written one. The way so many people say seeing Yuki blush made the movie perfection for them on it's own seems to indicate this as well.

It's still an entertaining franchise, don't get me wrong, but it lost far more than it gained in the end in terms of the stability of it's own canon and appeal to the sci-fi fan in me.

Going to be cynical now though.....good luck getting any further with this topic in this thread than I did by the way. This movie is "perfect" after all so there's nothing to discuss is the impression I've gotten....except maybe with folks like Triple_R, Reckoner and Archon_Wing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
Haruhi may be able to "overwrite" whatever her subconscious wishes to, but that does not make her immune to assault. Anything that her subconscious remains unaware of would not be defended against. Yuki's usurping of Haruhi's powers can be considered her "hacking into" Haruhi's power in order to force it to run a program of Yuki's choosing (i.e. making the Disappearance world). This in no way implies that Yuki took the power for herself--she merely was able to make it obey orders from her. The power was in Yuki's possession only in the same sense that piloting a Boeing 747 makes a human capable of flying 900 km/h while carrying 100 tons of weight.
If that were the case (and there's no real way of knowing that it is) it would make that plot point even more flawed and contradictory to the happenings in the first three novels. If she's capable of doing this and there's little potential long-term harm to Haruhi and the real world and there's an escape window why not have just done something like that from the start. The point of her mission is to collect information about Haruhi's ability so that the Data Entity can comprehend it and that seems like it would be among the most practical ways of going about doing so. For example she could create a world like Endless Eight or something to act as a laboratory, only don't let Kyon know about it and in the meantime experiment with Haruhi's power and try to catalog how they works. After all is said and done with, set things back to normal and be on your merry way. Done deal, minute interference necessary, no reason to let anybody in on what she's doing since they won't remember.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2010-12-26 at 21:36.
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Old 2010-12-26, 23:06   Link #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Former point of the series it would seem. Anyway this is the first topic I feel like discussing with people in this thread for a long long time. Thanks for bringing this up again since it's only appropriate now that we've all seen the definitive version of the movie.

I've tried going over this exact same point with people (operative word being tried) and happen to agree completely that it doesn't really add up no matter how you try to spin it. It seems to contradict everything we've been told about the relationship between Haruhi, The Data Entity and Yuki Nagato circa volume 1. Indeed it makes no logical sense why if the Data Entity's emissary can just absorb Haruhi's power to create new data that the Data Entity couldn't just do the same and comprehend her powers through first hand experience since that is it's stated goal way back in volume 1 as established through one of Nagato's expository monologues. We're talking about a being who has another extension in Asakura Ryoko who doesn't subscribe to the idea of morality, the rights of the test subject, or sitting back to take mental notes in a largely uncontrolled experiment like Yuki Nagato did in the first season and who had no problem with trying to kill an innocent bystander in order to provoke Haruhi into a quick reaction so she could try to study and understand her completely in a relative controlled experiment. It stands to reason that the Data Entity could have just as easily made Ryoko the leader instead of Yuki, had Ryoko absorb Haruhi's powers and then just fiddle around with them herself in controlled experiments to try and understand their nature. Not to say Yuki wasn't capable of the same thing since we just witnessed it in this movie.

That's kind of a huge problem I had with this movie because it appears to retcon a lot of what the author took such a long time to establish in the first 3 novels about why Haruhi must just be allowed to run rampant in the eyes of Nagato, Mikuru, and Koizumi. Also it's like the author doesn't truly comprehend the nature of the scientific method and how information and meaning is derived from our surroundings after all....then again should I really expect that from a light novel? This movie to me kind of marks the clear boundary where the Haruhi franchise makes a transition from firmer science fiction concepts to pure fantasy and character wish fulfillment like what can be found in just about any other light novel adaptation. It's more fuel to the fire for my theory that the main reason this story exists the way it does is because the author needed some way to portray the breakout character Yuki Nagato as a moe object for her fans in order to draw extra attention to the next full length storyline in the series....which I swear seems like the main reason this novel is the fan favourite in the series and not the first arguably tighter written one. The way so many people say seeing Yuki blush made the movie perfection for them on it's own seems to indicate this as well.
I think what you pointed out is true to a degree. I do feel it sort of weakens Haruhi's supposed "importance" in the grand scheme of things. I suppose the "weak" explanation of this would be that Yuki didn't actually use the full capabilities of Haruhi's powers, but rather only borrowed "some" of her powers.

The other thing I'm going to mention is that for me personally, it wasn't watching alternative Yuki's actions that made Disappearance one of the more entertaining novels in the series for me, but rather Kyon. In fact, as much as I like Haruhi, it is Kyon himself alongside the more scifish aspect of this series that really make tihs series for me.

Anyhow, without digressing... Part of the problem with over analyzing something like the Haruhi universe, beyond the idea that time travel itself and such doesn't actually make sense, is that this sort of story is preposterous in the first place. Just like Code Geass, you must embrace the preposterousness of the story to not trip on the details TOO much.

I for one would most likely have reacted like you did if I wasn't so entertained by the characters and story. The story isn't perfect for sure. I rate it a 10/10 because my enjoyment level was that of a 10/10. If I was being more objective, it would have got an 8.5-9.0 at best.
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Old 2010-12-26, 23:45   Link #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think what you pointed out is true to a degree. I do feel it sort of weakens Haruhi's supposed "importance" in the grand scheme of things. I suppose the "weak" explanation of this would be that Yuki didn't actually use the full capabilities of Haruhi's powers, but rather only borrowed "some" of her powers.

The other thing I'm going to mention is that for me personally, it wasn't watching alternative Yuki's actions that made Disappearance one of the more entertaining novels in the series for me, but rather Kyon. In fact, as much as I like Haruhi, it is Kyon himself alongside the more scifish aspect of this series that really make tihs series for me.

Anyhow, without digressing... Part of the problem with over analyzing something like the Haruhi universe, beyond the idea that time travel itself and such doesn't actually make sense, is that this sort of story is preposterous in the first place. Just like Code Geass, you must embrace the preposterousness of the story to not trip on the details TOO much.

I for one would most likely have reacted like you did if I wasn't so entertained by the characters and story. The story isn't perfect for sure. I rate it a 10/10 because my enjoyment level was that of a 10/10. If I was being more objective, it would have got an 8.5-9.0 at best.
Sometimes if you're a fan enough of something, and the enjoyment value is high enough for you, you can overlook the flaws in a story and suspend disbelief. Unfortunately this means people are rather particular about when they are willing to do this....myself included. Haruhi seems to be one of those rare cases where the overwhelming majority of fans are willing to do this and base their impression of it solely on enjoyment. Code Geass is a pretty good example of another one, though I'm not sure it was to the same degree...maybe the ratios the same, I don't know, Code Geass was impossible to gauge because no other series this decade really generated anywhere near the same number of viewers and forum commentators.

Funny that in a series so overwhelmed by female characters it is the male character that should prove among the most popular for many. Easily the most relatable character for me in the franchise too...easily since he's the only one with a personality complex enough to sustain his character beyond just his design....but I still don't really buy the idea that he liked his situation this whole time. I think he was mostly trying to be altruistic and do what ought to be done for the sake of the group more than anything as opposed to being selfish like we might expect him to be and choosing the easy boring life. If I look at it that way the character still comes out of the movie fairly strong in my book. As for the rest of the characters....well.... Anyway among the parts of he movie I enjoyed most was seeing the internal struggle against his own flawed self laid out in a visual symbolic scene. What surprises me though is that many people seem to think things like this are unique to Kyoto Animation when it comes to anime. I mean if people love that sort of thing like I do then I have tons of shows, directors, writers and manga-ka I can recommend to them that use that sort of visual style to illustrate character development and exposition scenes. Just ask me in a PM and I'll be more than happy to try and hook you up folks.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2010-12-26 at 23:55.
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Old 2010-12-27, 00:15   Link #505
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As for Kyon wanting to go back, I think that was probably the best choice. After all, changing everyone else's life just so you can be with your cute little girlfriend would be the selfish thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Funny that in a series so overwhelmed by female characters it is the male character that should prove among the most popular for many. Easily the most relatable character for me in the franchise too...easily since he's the only one with a personality complex enough to sustain his character beyond just his design....but I still don't really buy the idea that he liked his situation this whole time. I think he was mostly trying to be altruistic and do what ought to be done for the sake of the group more than anything as opposed to being selfish like we might expect him to be and choosing the easy boring life. If I look at it that way the character still comes out of the movie fairly strong in my book. As for the rest of the characters....well.... Anyway among the parts of he movie I enjoyed most was seeing the internal struggle against his own flawed self laid out in a visual symbolic scene. What surprises me though is that many people seem to think things like this are unique to Kyoto Animation when it comes to anime. I mean if people love that sort of thing like I do then I have tons of shows, directors, writers and manga-ka I can recommend to them that use that sort of visual style to illustrate character development and exposition scenes. Just ask me in a PM and I'll be more than happy to try and hook you up folks.
It's only natural that Kyon's the only character that has really any complexity. We get a little bit from Haruhi and her past from Melancholy but that's it. More and more, I wonder how little more we've learned about the titular character-- the "reairing" didn't help at all. At least with Kyon, we get a lot of his thoughts. Some may find his overuse of introspection to be a bit tiring, but at least we can understand a character through their biases and reactions to the events.

The other 3 are mostly just exposition devices. The movie helps much more with Yuki's character as one can infer the reasons behind her actions; it would be impossible to attribute this all to coincidence. Apparently, not having Yuki sprout technobabble was a great way to get interaction along. Who would have known. However, I really wasn't too excited over moe moe Yuki, for whatever reason.

The movie does great to improving our knowledge of the characters to some degree, although you might argue it wasn't that much to begin with. In any case, the movie is quite the high point of the series [for me] simply because I was able to take at least one of the characters more seriously.
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Old 2010-12-27, 00:52   Link #506
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I think that the complexity and depth of many of this anime's characters is actually underrated somewhat, and this factors in to my high rating for this Movie. I think that this anime has some very entertaining and intriguing characters that aren't fully appreciated, even by many of this anime's fans.

The strength of an intense 1st person narration and perspective, is that the character in that role will be extensively fleshed out, have his or her inner thoughts revealed at length, and hence made complex through the sheer volume of information we have on him or her.

However, the downside of an intense 1st person narration and perspective, through the character of Kyon in this case, is that you only get to experience the other characters through that one character's perspective. We don't know what Yuki Nagato and Itsuki Koizumi might be saying to one another when Kyon's not around to hear them, and such a conversation could be telling about both characters, and reveal more about them. We don't really get to see what Haruhi is like when she's not around Kyon.


What's Haruhi's relationship like with her various family members, for example? For all we know, she might show an entirely different side of herself to her father (which she likely has and still has, since she did reference him directly at least once). She may even be very deferential and respectful towards her father.

There were a couple scenes in the Melancholy episodes (i.e. the episodes that were a part of that particular arc) that stood out to me, when it came to what they might suggest about Haruhi's character. One was how respectful Haruhi was towards that older gentleman who was running the apartment complex that Asakura had been at. Haruhi even let his somewhat creepy flirting with her slide entirely.

By and large, Haruhi appears to be quite respectful of adults, as we also see with how much thanks she shows to the adult members of Koizumi's organization that she interacts with.


Secondly, Haruhi at least once gave off a vibe to Kyon that she didn't want him to follow her home (we know this because Kyon himself alluded to it in his narration), and this was after she had opened up to him a fair bit and had clearly grown close to him.

Why's that, you think? Is it because her father would not approve of Haruhi's relationship with Kyon and hence Haruhi wants to keep that private from him, as she doesn't have it in her to fight her father openly over that?

There's a lot of mysteries and intrigue to this anime, and to its characters. But you have to notice subtleties, and be willing to speculate a bit, in order to pick up on it. In an anime with a constant 1st person perspective through one specific character, you have to be willing to read between the lines in order to get the other characters, and better understand what they may be like.

In an odd sort of way, I think that Haruhi Suzumiya is one of the most underrated anime characters out there. In some ways, she's actually a victim of her own popularity, as people tend to focus on the loudest and most commonly referenced aspects or portrayals of her character. The more subtle scenes, like the ones I referenced above, tend to get lost in the midst of memes, and that's a shame, as I think what makes Haruhi a far better character than a generic genki girl or a generic tsundere is precisely those subtle scenes with her in it.


In any event, Tanigawa has indeed created a plot contradiction of sorts with Disappearance, and how it relates to the relationship between Haruhi, Nagato, and the DITE. However, I can conceive of ways that Tanigawa can write himself out of that corner. How he can close this particular plot hole, as it were.

In fairness, that doesn't excuse the plot hole, but it allows me to give Tanigawa the benefit of the doubt, and wait until his Haruhi narrative is over before I render any final opinions on the work taken as a whole. If, at that point, the Haruhi/Nagato/DITE plot hole, raised by Disappearance, has not been resolved in a way that convinces me, I might even consider shifting my rating for this anime movie down from 10/10 to 9/10. But, for now, I'm giving Tanigawa the benefit of the doubt, because I find the characters he's created to have outstanding chemistry with one another and to generally be a joy to watch, while stirring some serious thoughtfulness that, sadly, few modern anime do for me.

Similar to TTGL in some ways, there is some significant philosophical meat to this story to give added depth to its colorful cast. To make that cast seem a bit more real, as it were, and make them characters worth emotionally and intellectually investing in.


Edit: This is an aside, but I sometimes think that fans are a bit too quick to take Kyon's side of any disputes between him and other SOS Brigade members, particularly Haruhi. This is understandable, though, because we're getting to hear "his side of the story", and at length, because the story is told from his perspective. That can make it harder to get "the other side of the story" from the perspective of other characters.

As an intellectual exercise, I tried to place myself in Haruhi's shoes when it came to the filming of her movie during Sigh. Now, while her treatment of Mikuru in the one (in)famous scene is genuinely deplorable, the lead-up to it really isn't as bad as Kyon made it out to be. In my opinion, Kyon really was making too big a deal out of a lot of things, and hence I can kind of see why Haruhi might not be terribly responsive to his complaints. I'm going to be frank here: Kyon can be a real wet blanket when you're trying to have fun. The guy truly needs to loosen up a bit. There's a happy medium between Haruhi's level of impulsiveness and recklessness prior to Live Alive, and Kyon's degree of cautiousness and critique prior to Disappearance. Haruhi's not entirely in the wrong here, and Kyon's not entirely in the right.
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Old 2010-12-27, 05:39   Link #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There were a couple scenes in the Melancholy episodes (i.e. the episodes that were a part of that particular arc) that stood out to me, when it came to what they might suggest about Haruhi's character. One was how respectful Haruhi was towards that older gentleman who was running the apartment complex that Asakura had been at. Haruhi even let his somewhat creepy flirting with her slide entirely.

By and large, Haruhi appears to be quite respectful of adults, as we also see with how much thanks she shows to the adult members of Koizumi's organization that she interacts with.


Secondly, Haruhi at least once gave off a vibe to Kyon that she didn't want him to follow her home (we know this because Kyon himself alluded to it in his narration), and this was after she had opened up to him a fair bit and had clearly grown close to him.
Right, there's a lot of things you can infer in the Melancholy arc. She's a completely different person when not around the SOS brigade. In fact, she could be considered fairly ordinary despite achieving well in everything. But that's ironically what she doesn't want to be. It becomes really easy to deduct the way why she is acting the way she is-- it's almost like playing a video game that lets you autowin. She becomes really bored, and it's no wonder she gets so excited about new things. So like I've said above, she has some good development along with Kyon relative to the rest of the cast.


Quote:
Why's that, you think? Is it because her father would not approve of Haruhi's relationship with Kyon and hence Haruhi wants to keep that private from him, as she doesn't have it in her to fight her father openly over that?

There's a lot of mysteries and intrigue to this anime, and to its characters. But you have to notice subtleties, and be willing to speculate a bit, in order to pick up on it. In an anime with a constant 1st person perspective through one specific character, you have to be willing to read between the lines in order to get the other characters, and better understand what they may be like.
These are all good points. There's definitely quite a bit that they've set up very well in the initial arcs-- it leaves you with a lot to think of. But you can't just leave everything up to speculation. Teasing people for too long will eventually cause it to lose effect. The whole series seems to be very good at not telling you things.

We really reach a border between something meaningful and pretentious. Something meaningful lets you solve the mystery. Something pretentious just keeps spinning you around in every direction and asks questions it can't answer itself.

Not that I think the show is pretentious, but there is certainly that feeling around at times during the second season and the movie. I don't think it's ok to justify every single vaguely explained things all the time with some distant hope of explanation in the future. There is of course the suspension of disbelief. But you really can't expect everyone to tolerate it the same way.


Quote:
In an odd sort of way, I think that Haruhi Suzumiya is one of the most underrated anime characters out there. In some ways, she's actually a victim of her own popularity, as people tend to focus on the loudest and most commonly referenced aspects or portrayals of her character. The more subtle scenes, like the ones I referenced above, tend to get lost in the midst of memes, and that's a shame, as I think what makes Haruhi a far better character than a generic genki girl or a generic tsundere is precisely those subtle scenes with her in it.
A bit ironic isn't it? She gets viewed in the most superficial way-- much like how mostly everyone besides the SOS Brigade views her. Of course, I feel the anime series doesn't help since she seems to molest Mikuru ad nauseam. I give the movie props for making that relevant to the plot.

You could see some of this in alternate Haruhi; once she gets informed about all of this, she's like a young kid in a candy store. I found it pretty amusing. While everyone was drooling over alternate Yuki, I thought alternate Haruhi was looking great.

I never saw Haruhi as a tsundere though. She's her own class of character.

Quote:
Similar to TTGL in some ways, there is some significant philosophical meat to this story to give added depth to its colorful cast. To make that cast seem a bit more real, as it were, and make them characters worth emotionally and intellectually investing in.
Right, the cast is quite colorful. But they should really cook the meat already for it to be intellectually stimulating

I think the problem with plot holes and such is that I still really have no idea what the point of the story is about. If they'd actually try to investigate the nature of Haruhi and those other 2 "characters". (I use that word lightly, because you could frequently replace Itsuki with a cardboard cutout, unless he has to fight) We've meandered around for 4 years, and while it's a fun ride, I have no idea where we're going.

But all and all, none of this really prevents me from enjoying the movie; I do not watch anime with a clipboard on me, ready to check off everything that doesn't work. It makes me laugh, it made me gasp, and it made me feel for those poor fools. Plus Kyon cements himself as an S-class badass by blackmailing a nigh omnipotent entity; which is simply the crowning moment for the series. That and it wasn't moral choosing to stay in a world modeled after his own fetishes. (Yuki, you forgot about those 2 lumps on Mikuru's chest. If you considered that Kyon might have stayed)
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Old 2010-12-27, 07:43   Link #508
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I think Akka's point was that controlling Haruhi's power REQUIRES an understanding of it.
Not exactly.
To use a parallel, Haruhi at the start is like a treasure rigged with a bomb : everyone wants the treasure, but everyone is afraid it will blow in their face. So they have to use underhanded and subtle ways to approach the treasure, observe it, understand what makes the bomb tick, and prevent the explosion.

Yuki is basically coming, defusing the bomb and leaving the treasure in the middle of the room. You wonder what was the point of walking on your toes around the bomb if it was so easy to handle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
As for Kyon wanting to go back, I think that was probably the best choice. After all, changing everyone else's life just so you can be with your cute little girlfriend would be the selfish thing to do.
Except you can see it just as much, if not more, as Haruhi having changed the life of everyone three years ago through some unexplained and unconscious cosmic power, and Yuki fixing it and bringing the world back to normal.
And I'd like to add : what you say is actually what Kyon DID. He DID change back the world for everyone to be with his pretty girlfriend (his desire to get Haruhi back felt seriously romantic to me, even if he used the "I wanna have fun" excuse), and his relation with "cute Yuki" make it very clear he sees her as a dear friend, but NOT romantically.

So I agree with your reasoning, but for the opposite reason

Last edited by Akka; 2010-12-27 at 07:53.
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:26   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Right, there's a lot of things you can infer in the Melancholy arc. She's a completely different person when not around the SOS brigade. In fact, she could be considered fairly ordinary despite achieving well in everything. But that's ironically what she doesn't want to be. It becomes really easy to deduct the way why she is acting the way she is-- it's almost like playing a video game that lets you autowin.
I sometimes think that Haruhi is more "with it" than she lets on, but she wants to be different, extraordinary, and outrageous, so she really throws caution and inhibitions to the wind, and intentionally "acts out" in a way.

It kind of reminds me of a good pro wrestler in-ring persona, actually. I remember "Stone Cold" Steve Austin once saying that the personality of his character that you see in the ring does reflect his real personality, but that it's the real him cranked up to the loudest and most outgoing max. Of course, Austin is intentionally doing this to play to the fans, and I think that Haruhi might be intentionally doing something very similar to play to the SOS Brigade and just have fun.


Quote:
These are all good points. There's definitely quite a bit that they've set up very well in the initial arcs-- it leaves you with a lot to think of. But you can't just leave everything up to speculation. Teasing people for too long will eventually cause it to lose effect. The whole series seems to be very good at not telling you things.
Yeah, I have to admit that you're right here.

I'd say more here but it would involve briefly referencing the yet-to-be-animated novel material, and I don't think that would fly on this thread...


Quote:

We really reach a border between something meaningful and pretentious. Something meaningful lets you solve the mystery. Something pretentious just keeps spinning you around in every direction and asks questions it can't answer itself.

Not that I think the show is pretentious, but there is certainly that feeling around at times during the second season and the movie. I don't think it's ok to justify every single vaguely explained things all the time with some distant hope of explanation in the future. There is of course the suspension of disbelief. But you really can't expect everyone to tolerate it the same way.
I don't expect that. If Haruhi 2006 had not won me over as much as it did, I'd be less forgiving of it now.


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A bit ironic isn't it? She gets viewed in the most superficial way-- much like how mostly everyone besides the SOS Brigade views her. Of course, I feel the anime series doesn't help since she seems to molest Mikuru ad nauseam. I give the movie props for making that relevant to the plot.
lol. Good points.


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You could see some of this in alternate Haruhi; once she gets informed about all of this, she's like a young kid in a candy store.
Great point. Up until she's informed of all of this, she's very... prim and proper, so to speak. She really seems like just another top female student.

One thing that I don't think many people fully appreciate about Haruhi: She's a ham. A total ham. She's like a great actor that's intentionally trying to overact. Instead of a Movie Director, Haruhi should perhaps be an actress, lol.


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I found it pretty amusing. While everyone was drooling over alternate Yuki, I thought alternate Haruhi was looking great.
Agreed.


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I never saw Haruhi as a tsundere though. She's her own class of character.
She's not just a tsundere. Nor is she just a genki girl. Those are just two different aspects of her character. Tsundere is a character trait of Haruhi, but she's not a tsundere archetype. That's how I would put it, any way.



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Right, the cast is quite colorful. But they should really cook the meat already for it to be intellectually stimulating

I think the problem with plot holes and such is that I still really have no idea what the point of the story is about. If they'd actually try to investigate the nature of Haruhi and those other 2 "characters". (I use that word lightly, because you could frequently replace Itsuki with a cardboard cutout, unless he has to fight) We've meandered around for 4 years, and while it's a fun ride, I have no idea where we're going.
Yeah, I have to agree.


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But all and all, none of this really prevents me from enjoying the movie; I do not watch anime with a clipboard on me, ready to check off everything that doesn't work. It makes me laugh, it made me gasp, and it made me feel for those poor fools. Plus Kyon cements himself as an S-class badass by blackmailing a nigh omnipotent entity; which is simply the crowning moment for the series. That and it wasn't moral choosing to stay in a world modeled after his own fetishes. (Yuki, you forgot about those 2 lumps on Mikuru's chest. If you considered that Kyon might have stayed)
Great points. I'm inclined to agree with you.
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:50   Link #510
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post

Except you can see it just as much, if not more, as Haruhi having changed the life of everyone three years ago through some unexplained and unconscious cosmic power, and Yuki fixing it and bringing the world back to normal.
And I'd like to add : what you say is actually what Kyon DID. He DID change back the world for everyone to be with his pretty girlfriend (his desire to get Haruhi back felt seriously romantic to me, even if he used the "I wanna have fun" excuse), and his relation with "cute Yuki" make it very clear he sees her as a dear friend, but NOT romantically.

So I agree with your reasoning, but for the opposite reason
I don't really think it was that romantic; I mean I found Sighs more convincing about any romance to be honest. I mean certainly even just the family itself that he's known so long would have been different. How exactly are you gonna live in an alternate reality where everything you know is "fake".

Besides, we really don't know how much Haruhi changed the world, or perhaps Haruhi having these powers is the right thing. We really don't know the effect of Yuki using these powers is. What if there are beings evil worse than Haruhi that have similar powers, etc? Overall, it's pretty reckless of Yuki, since surely the DITE would not be that stupid if they could just fix Haruhi in the first place and manipulate her as needed. At least I hope...
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Old 2010-12-27, 10:33   Link #511
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
It stands to reason that the Data Entity could have just as easily made Ryoko the leader instead of Yuki, had Ryoko absorb Haruhi's powers and then just fiddle around with them herself in controlled experiments to try and understand their nature. Not to say Yuki wasn't capable of the same thing since we just witnessed it in this movie.
Data is (are?) data, and to the Data Entity, everything is data. As we have seen previously, it (and therefore its emissary, Yuki) already has the ability to manipulate data, space and time included. I don't think it has any problems in understanding how Haruhi does what she does from a purely mechanical point of view, but it doesn't understand her on a higher level. For example, I might be able to hold a brush and mix paints, but that of itself doesn't make me an artist. In the same way, the Data Entity can manipulate space and time, but that of itself doesn't make it god. So, it tries to understand Haruhi as best it can, but it doesn't try to replicate what she does. In many cultures the timing of someone's death is regarded as the province of a god or gods. But human beings can also kill, and so we sometimes speak of people "playing God" when they make a cold-blooded decision to end someone's life. I think that is what is going on here - although Yuki has the Data Entity's power to alter space and time, she does not "play God", if for no other reason than she cannot foresee what exactly will happen. Just one small mistake, one incorrect bit of data, and she and the Data Entity could cease to exist.

Into that situation now comes Yuki's "accumulation of anomalous data", i.e. her developing emotions and falling in love with Kyon. She says that she "harnesses" or "steals" Haruhi's power, but perhaps it's more of a misappropriation rather than outright theft, and she for once "plays God" and changes the world. She doesn't really know what the outcome will be - for example, the psychotic Asakura Ryoko surely wasn't intended - all she says is that she tried to preserve as much of Kyon's "state" (i.e. his personality and memories) as she could when she created what was supposed to be a Haruhi-free paradise for him where perhaps, just perhaps, he might fall in love with her too. But she also acknowledges his right as a human being to make the choice, and so she provides him with an escape route. Which, in the end, he takes.

My own view is that to dismiss this movie simply as a moe-driven excuse to see Yuki do cute things is to do it a great injustice. It touches on many of the "great themes" of humanity, and also contains thinly-veiled parallels to the Judeo-Christian mythos* of the Fall and the Redemption - with Yuki as Eve and Kyon as both the first and second Adam (which of course was no problem for a time traveler). And if the scene near the end with the momentary 有希/雪 homophone mix-up isn't one of the most poignant ever made, I'll go back in time to when I had a hat and eat it

*I use this term simply in its technical sense without wishing to denigrate or deny the beliefs themselves
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:31   Link #512
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I can think of an explanation for the so-called plot hole. What if hacking Haruhi's powers is an extremley dangerous procedure? Maybe Yuki was so frustrated that she was willing to take the risk but the IDTE's main faction is usually very cautious and won't repeat the experiment. They won't risk losing their only chance for evolution.
Anyways I won't think too much about it. Haruhi's powers are so mysterious that standard logic doesn't apply to them.
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Old 2010-12-27, 14:06   Link #513
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Forgive my intrusion, but while I do agree that Disappearance seems to lessen Haruhi's omnipotence somewhat, I don't see a huge continuity error regarding the Data Overmind (or DITE, or whichever term you prefer). Nagato says in her initial technobabble rant that while the Overmind has control over data (including STC data, which appears to make up the universe), it is unable to create data from nothing. Haruhi is the only being that is able to do that.

In Disappearance, Nagato somehow piggybacks off Haruhi's power and uses it to change the world, but that's it. She edits it, if you will. She doesn't create anything. She shuffles a few people around and changes their memories so they don't notice, and she restores Asakura to life, but if we're using computing terminology, that's like moving a few files into a different folder and restoring something from the Recycle Bin. She prevents Haruhi from using her powers. Makes them "read-only", to stretch the metaphor. But there's no actual data creation occurring, like Haruhi creating closed space, or a new world, or making a cat talk, or drawing a 100kb image that contains countless petabytes of alien data.

The Overmind is studying Haruhi because it believes her data creation ability to be the key to its own "autoevolution", as it has (according to Nagato) reached an evolutionary dead-end. The reason it, or rather the segment of it that governs Nagato, wants to merely observe Haruhi and not tinker with her or provoke her is because it doesn't want to rock that boat and risk losing its chance. Hence why Nagato is going to be punished by the Overmind for messing with her.

I could be wrong, but from my understanding it (from seeing the anime and reading the translated light novels so far), there's nothing you could 100% call a continuity error. Of course, since all of the SOS Brigade members' stories contradicts everybody elses, and all three of them are potentially lying, there's no way to really say for sure.

This kind of thing really doesn't bother me. The series is a light sci-fi slice-of-life drama with high production values and a great cast, and there aren't enough series out there that try that particular cocktail, and certainly none that do it so well. I mean, I'm a sucker for time travel stories, and if I wanted to complain I could talk about the inconsistency in time travel theory within the series, but as it doesn't harm my enjoyment of it one bit, why would I? And as Kyon even points out that inconsistency himself, I can only assume that Tanigawa is aware of it and has an answer for it at the ready. As another poster said, I don't watch anime (or engage in any other hobby) with a notebook, marking it like a test paper. Not that everything is perfect, or should be said to be such, but if you can't enjoy your hobbies and look for the best in them, then what's the point in having them in the first place?

Again, my apologies for butting in!
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Old 2010-12-27, 14:12   Link #514
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Also it's like the author doesn't truly comprehend the nature of the scientific method and how information and meaning is derived from our surroundings after all....then again should I really expect that from a light novel? This movie to me kind of marks the clear boundary where the Haruhi franchise makes a transition from firmer science fiction concepts to pure fantasy and character wish fulfillment like what can be found in just about any other light novel adaptation.
Firmer science fiction concepts? Like what? Everything in the series is pseudo-science at best, and it's always been like that.

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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
It's more fuel to the fire for my theory that the main reason this story exists the way it does is because the author needed some way to portray the breakout character Yuki Nagato as a moe object for her fans in order to draw extra attention to the next full length storyline in the series....which I swear seems like the main reason this novel is the fan favourite in the series and not the first arguably tighter written one.
Eh. For me it's that the story follows the same format of the first novel (which, you're right, was very good in terms of pure storytelling), while being something completely new that referenced past stories as well. The fact that it was pretty much the first instance of character development in the series didn't hurt either.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
The other 3 are mostly just exposition devices
The other three have literally been nothing BUT exposition devices. Itsuki's there to clean up after Haruhi and have his Organization come in and do favors. Mikuru's there to shuttle Kyon around. And Yuki's there to protect everyone when the fan inevitably gets hit.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There were a couple scenes in the Melancholy episodes (i.e. the episodes that were a part of that particular arc) that stood out to me, when it came to what they might suggest about Haruhi's character. One was how respectful Haruhi was towards that older gentleman who was running the apartment complex that Asakura had been at. Haruhi even let his somewhat creepy flirting with her slide entirely.

By and large, Haruhi appears to be quite respectful of adults, as we also see with how much thanks she shows to the adult members of Koizumi's organization that she interacts with.
"What's with those stupid teachers? They're such a pain! A pain! I was dragged to the student guidance office...Even that handball moron Okabe was brought in!"

Yeah, okay. Respect. And don't tell me that that's okay because she was angry; if you're only respectful when you're in a good mood, you're not really respectful.

Haruhi's respect of adults is something she turns on and off when it suits her, like Asakura's politeness. She was nice to the old guy so that the old guy would tell her what she needed to know.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As an intellectual exercise, I tried to place myself in Haruhi's shoes when it came to the filming of her movie during Sigh. Now, while her treatment of Mikuru in the one (in)famous scene is genuinely deplorable, the lead-up to it really isn't as bad as Kyon made it out to be. In my opinion, Kyon really was making too big a deal out of a lot of things, and hence I can kind of see why Haruhi might not be terribly responsive to his complaints. I'm going to be frank here: Kyon can be a real wet blanket when you're trying to have fun. The guy truly needs to loosen up a bit. There's a happy medium between Haruhi's level of impulsiveness and recklessness prior to Live Alive, and Kyon's degree of cautiousness and critique prior to Disappearance. Haruhi's not entirely in the wrong here, and Kyon's not entirely in the right.
In the book, Kyon was driven to violence because Haruhi was punching Mikuru in the back of the head to knock the contact out. Oh, and she had given her tequila, not sake.

Kyon's not a wet blanket at all; if anything, he took way too long to do anything about what was clearly a problem. There's not an ounce of Mikuru that wanted anything to do with the movie (especially when it came to being center stage in skimpy outfits), and that didn't bother Haruhi one bit. Haruhi fans don't like the Sigh arc because it shows Haruhi at her worst. Sure, everyone understood she was eccentric, but probably no one thought it would come to the point of defiantly proclaiming that another human being was her toy and acting accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Right, there's a lot of things you can infer in the Melancholy arc. She's a completely different person when not around the SOS brigade. In fact, she could be considered fairly ordinary despite achieving well in everything. But that's ironically what she doesn't want to be. It becomes really easy to deduct the way why she is acting the way she is-- it's almost like playing a video game that lets you autowin. She becomes really bored, and it's no wonder she gets so excited about new things. So like I've said above, she has some good development along with Kyon relative to the rest of the cast.
Okay, put yourself in her position. Your interests are completely at odds with everyone else's. Your social standards are vastly different from those of your peers. You're good at all the things you couldn't care less about (and actually pretty awful at the things you ARE interested in).

Here's a pertinent example. When I finally got the Disappearance Blu-ray, I wanted to call everyone over to watch it. I ended up calling two people. You know why? Because the majority of my friends don't care at all about anime. Now imagine if I didn't have even those two. Wouldn't it make sense for me to be a little gloomy? And, if I did find someone (or four people!) who shared my interest, wouldn't I cheer up dramatically?

I guess my point here is that no, Haruhi is not ordinary, but yeah, of course it makes sense that the SOS Brigade would change her. She likes being bossy, and then she finds four yes-men on pretty much the same day. Of course she's suddenly a different person! That's not development, or rather, it would be like calling it development when a hungry person cheered up after being offered a sandwich.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A bit ironic isn't it? She gets viewed in the most superficial way-- much like how mostly everyone besides the SOS Brigade views her. Of course, I feel the anime series doesn't help since she seems to molest Mikuru ad nauseam. I give the movie props for making that relevant to the plot.
She's viewed in a superficial way because she's portrayed (and pretty much is) a very simple character. No surprise there.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I think the problem with plot holes and such is that I still really have no idea what the point of the story is about. If they'd actually try to investigate the nature of Haruhi and those other 2 "characters". (I use that word lightly, because you could frequently replace Itsuki with a cardboard cutout, unless he has to fight) We've meandered around for 4 years, and while it's a fun ride, I have no idea where we're going.
That's my biggest problem with the series, too. With all the techno-babble and pseudo-scientific talk, combined with Haruhi's energy and Kyon's sarcasm, it has the potential to really be great. It's stunning when you're first hit with it (in my case, after watching the 2006 series in the airing order). I was overjoyed when I heard about a second season because of that. However, I watched that and was positively underwhelmed. I had even invited someone over to watch the second season with me, because she had seen the original series. But then, as the episodes went by, I had this growing feeling of, "I'm showing someone something really boring, and they don't like it."

A look back at the non-titular episodes from the first season generated a similar reaction in me, and looking into the future novels left me with the thought, "Is this it? Is this really it?" I'm used to animes with tight storylines, definitive progression, and satisfying conclusions. This felt (and still kind of feels) like a breath of fresh air compared to those. Shame that fresh air has no oxygen in it.
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Old 2010-12-27, 15:30   Link #515
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post

"What's with those stupid teachers? They're such a pain! A pain! I was dragged to the student guidance office...Even that handball moron Okabe was brought in!"
Where is that line from, exactly? I'd like added context here before I comment on it. I don't recall it myself.


Quote:

Yeah, okay. Respect. And don't tell me that that's okay because she was angry; if you're only respectful when you're in a good mood, you're not really respectful.
Haruhi wasn't really in a good mood when she went to Asakura's apartment complex, imo.


Quote:

Haruhi's respect of adults is something she turns on and off when it suits her, like Asakura's politeness. She was nice to the old guy so that the old guy would tell her what she needed to know.
He had already told her that before she had shown thanks to him. If her being nice was just an act to get the information that she wanted, she didn't need to be politely thankful to him. But she was, and that says something about her, in my opinion.


Quote:
In the book, ...
We're talking about the anime here, not the book. The anime chose to play down Haruhi's behavior here, so that factors into how we interpret the anime version of Haruhi's character.

I'll certainly admit she comes off much worse in the book.


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Kyon was driven to violence because Haruhi was punching Mikuru in the back of the head to knock the contact out. Oh, and she had given her tequila, not sake.
What bearing does that have on the anime? The anime chose to change this, so it's the anime version (which is, for some people here - such as Akka, IIRC - the only version that they're familiar with) that's pertinent here.

In the anime, Haruhi lightly bops Mikuru on the head with her megaphone. It's played much differently, and that impacts the broader scene.


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Kyon's not a wet blanket at all;
I disagree with you on that. I think that he is sometimes a wet blanket who should loosen up a little bit. He complained over, and criticized, every little decision that Haruhi made during the making of her movie. Is it really that big of a deal, for instance, if Haruhi decides to make Yuki Nagato's character a witch with a cat familiar? Is it really some epically horrible request for Mikuru to take a dip in the water as part of the filming of the movie? Now, I'm certainly not saying that it was pleasant for Mikuru to do that, but the scene was played up as some grievous great injustice (that's clearly how Kyon saw it), and that was laughably over-the-top, imo.

Kyon blows some things out or proportion, in my opinion. He also tends to not see the good side to what Haruhi is doing.

Edit: Now, Haruhi has her own character flaws, to be sure. Like I said, there's a happy medium somewhere between where Kyon (pre-Disappearance) and Haruhi (pre-Live Alive) are respectively at. Thankfully, I think that both characters move closer towards that happy medium as we get farther and farther into the novels, but I don't want to get too much into that for obvious reasons.


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if anything, he took way too long to do anything about what was clearly a problem.
What problem? The fact that Haruhi was showing actual school spirit, and wanted to make a contribution to her school's cultural festival by making a movie for it? That's a problem, in your opinion?


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There's not an ounce of Mikuru that wanted anything to do with the movie...
And we later find out from Big!Mikuru that she actually enjoyed her days in the SOS Brigade. Haruhi helped Mikuru get out of her overly shy shell. Mikuru's involvement in the movie was probably a big part of that for Big!Mikuru.


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(especially when it came to being center stage in skimpy outfits), and that didn't bother Haruhi one bit.
In part, because there was a genuinely positive motivation behind Haruhi's actions here. Again, what exactly is wrong with showing school spirit and wanting to do something special for your school's cultural festival?


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Haruhi fans don't like the Sigh arc because it shows Haruhi at her worst.
Actually, I'm a big Haruhi fan, and I liked the Sigh arc.


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Sure, everyone understood she was eccentric, but probably no one thought it would come to the point of defiantly proclaiming that another human being was her toy and acting accordingly.
That was uttered in the heat of the moment, and in the midst of great frustration. Whether or not she truly means it is a legitimate matter of debate.


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She's viewed in a superficial way because she's portrayed (and pretty much is) a very simple character.
No, she's not. I think that you're focusing a bit too much on her worst moments, without truly trying to understand the complexities of her character.
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Old 2010-12-27, 16:03   Link #516
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Where is that line from, exactly? I'd like added context here before I comment on it. I don't recall it myself.
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Part II, at just past 14:05. Haruhi was upset that she couldn't hand out fliers in a bunny girl outfit.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Haruhi wasn't really in a good mood when she went to Asakura's apartment complex, imo.
She wasn't extremely bubbly and happy and all that, no, but she wasn't in a particularly bad mood. In fact, IIRC, she was excited about a new mystery that she could solve.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree with you on that. I think that he is sometimes a wet blanket who should loosen up a little bit. He complained over, and criticized, every little decision that Haruhi made during the making of her movie. Is it really that big of a deal, for instance, if Haruhi decides to make Yuki Nagato's character a witch with a cat familiar? Is it really some epically horrible request for Mikuru to take a dip in the water as part of the filming of the movie? Now, I'm certainly not saying that it was pleasant for Mikuru to do that, but the scene was played up as some grievous great injustice (that's clearly how Kyon saw it), and that was laughably over-the-top, imo.
Kyon wasn't saying, "Oh my gosh, how can she possibly make Yuki a witch? What an injustice!" He just thought it was stupid. As for Mikuru getting dumped in the water, the anime makes it quite clear that it was cold and polluted, and Mikuru is TERRIFIED of getting thrown into it. Even the others clearly don't support doing that scene. And why does it matter if the scene was "played up"? Didn't you just say that the anime version is the "right" one, at least for the purposes of this discussion?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What problem? The fact that Haruhi was showing actual school spirit, and wanted to make a contribution to her school's cultural festival by making a movie for it? That's a problem, in your opinion?
No. That CONCEPT is not a problem. But in simplifying it as you did, you completely ignored all the objections I have with the execution.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And we later find out from Big!Mikuru that she actually enjoyed her days in the SOS Brigade. Haruhi helped Mikuru out of her overly shy and whiney shell, frankly.
"Let's say there is a very unfortunate person somewhere. But he wakes up one day to a world that has completely changed. Let's say the world has turned into an indescribable utopia, and he encounters absolutely no misfortune anymore. In the space of one night, someone whisked him away from hell and brought him to heaven.

However, this person did not wish for that to happen. He was taken by someone he doesn't know, whose identity remains a mystery. He never figures out who did it, and no one else ever finds out either. Now in this case, should this person be happy?"

The point of this quote is that whether or not good came out of events, it doesn't matter one bit as long as it's happening to the person in question against their will. The ends do NOT justify the means, and it's a violation of a person's rights to assume otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In part, because there was a genuinely positive motivation behind Haruhi's actions here. Again, what exactly is wrong with showing school spirit and wanting to do something special for your school's cultural festival?
Again, that's not the point at all.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That was uttered in the heat of the moment, and in the midst of great frustration. Whether or not she truly means it is a legitimate matter of debate
I think it's quite clear from Haruhi's actions (as I HAD said; somehow you manage to keep missing the important parts of my post) that she considers Mikuru to be her toy. She has a grand idea of how the movie's going to be, and, regardless of Mikuru's objections (which are quite blatant, especially for her), she's decided it's going to be that way. When you impose your will on others, oblivious to their own will, you're treating them as a toy.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Maybe you should follow your own advice...

<...>

You're just focusing, in a very biased way, at her worse moments, without truly trying to understand the complexities of her character.
Yeah, okay, just skip over my justification. In doing so you apparently missed what I actually said, which had absolutely nothing to do with Sigh or any other instance of Haruhi being sociopathic.
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Old 2010-12-27, 16:31   Link #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Part II, at just past 14:05. Haruhi was upset that she couldn't hand out fliers in a bunny girl outfit.
Well, maybe she had a right to be. This is a senior high school, after all. Being respectful of adults in a general sense doesn't mean you have to always agree with them, and can't let out some steam when adult regulations seem overly strict or difficult to you.


Quote:

She wasn't extremely bubbly and happy and all that, no, but she wasn't in a particularly bad mood.
Well, most people tend to be snippy when they're in a "particularly bad mood", regardless of what their typical behavior is.


Quote:
Kyon wasn't saying, "Oh my gosh, how can she possibly make Yuki a witch? What an injustice!" He just thought it was stupid.
My point is that he needlessly nitpicked the Mikuru movie to death, and was actively disagreeing with practically every little decision that Haruhi made. That's overkill, in my opinion. That's frankly not being a very good or supportive friend, in my opinion.

I stand by my position: Kyon can be a bit of a wet blanket at times.

Heck, Kyon himself basically admits that with how annoyed he was with Taniguchi trash-talking Haruhi's movie. Kyon was annoyed by what Taniguchi was saying there because it was like a good, hard look in the mirror for Kyon, and Kyon didn't entirely like what he saw there. The fact that Kyon had been acting like Taniguchi was in that one scene, is what made Kyon realize that he had been a bit too harsh on Haruhi, and that played a role in him choosing to be mostly supportive of the movie the rest of the way.


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As for Mikuru getting dumped in the water, the anime makes it quite clear that it was cold and polluted, and Mikuru is TERRIFIED of getting thrown into it. Even the others clearly don't support doing that scene. And why does it matter if the scene was "played up"?
What I meant by "played up" in this case, is the choice of background music, and the lengthy shots of Mikuru's horrified face. It was a bit overdone, at a simple believability level.

Also, IIRC, Mikuru's own good friend Tsuruya didn't seem to think there was much wrong with what Haruhi wanted Mikuru to do here. I find it odd that Haruhi gets so much heat for the events of Sigh, while Tsuruya (who happily played right along with Haruhi every step of the way, enjoying it quite enthusiastically) gets a complete pass from people, it seems.


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No. That CONCEPT is not a problem. But in simplifying it as you did, you completely ignored all the objections I have with the execution.
I'm ignoring no such thing. I'm simply presenting the other side of the issue. I get why you don't like how Haruhi handled the making of the Mikuru movie. I myself don't condone everything that Haruhi did there. I'm just saying that it's not a black-and-white issue overall. There's some good motivations fueling Haruhi here.


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"Let's say there is a very unfortunate person somewhere. But he wakes up one day to a world that has completely changed. Let's say the world has turned into an indescribable utopia, and he encounters absolutely no misfortune anymore. In the space of one night, someone whisked him away from hell and brought him to heaven.

However, this person did not wish for that to happen. He was taken by someone he doesn't know, whose identity remains a mystery. He never figures out who did it, and no one else ever finds out either. Now in this case, should this person be happy?"
You're missing the point of this quote. This quote basically shows how unreliable a narrator Kyon is. He's not unhappy because he doesn't know who or what brought about this change. He's unhappy simply because he doesn't like the change period, but he can't admit to himself (yet) that he doesn't like the change.


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The point of this quote is that whether or not good came out of events, it doesn't matter one bit as long as it's happening to the person in question against their will.
So, should a parent never scold a child then? A parental scolding is obviously done "against the will" of the child in question (i.e. the child probably doesn't want to be scolded). But that parental scolding could help to raise the child into being a better person.

Likewise, what Haruhi put Mikuru through made Mikuru a better person, imo.

Personal growth isn't all about rainbows and butterflies. Sometimes there's unpleasantness involved. As the old saying goes "No pain, no gain". Getting a person to come out of their shell can be an unpleasant process for the person being moved out of their shell. But, in the long-term, it can be for the better.


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I think it's quite clear from Haruhi's actions (as I HAD said; somehow you manage to keep missing the important parts of my post)
I'm not missing anything. I'm just raising the other side of the issue.


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... that she considers Mikuru to be her toy. She has a grand idea of how the movie's going to be, and, regardless of Mikuru's objections (which are quite blatant, especially for her), she's decided it's going to be that way. When you impose your will on others, oblivious to their own will, you're treating them as a toy.
Mikuru can leave the SOS Brigade whenever she wants. She chooses to be a member of the SOS Brigade of her own volition, and by the point of Sigh in the broader narrative, she ought to know what that entails for her.

Haruhi imposes her will on Mikuru, in part, because Mikuru lets her.
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Old 2010-12-27, 21:43   Link #518
Gamer_2k4
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Well, most people tend to be snippy when they're in a "particularly bad mood", regardless of what their typical behavior is.
Okay, but I said she WASN'T in a bad mood. Wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
My point is that he needlessly nitpicked the Mikuru movie to death, and was actively disagreeing with practically every little decision that Haruhi made. That's overkill, in my opinion. That's frankly not being a very good or supportive friend, in my opinion.

I stand by my position: Kyon can be a bit of a wet blanket at times.

Heck, Kyon himself basically admits that with how annoyed he was with Taniguchi trash-talking Haruhi's movie. Kyon was annoyed by what Taniguchi was saying there because it was like a good, hard look in the mirror for Kyon, and Kyon didn't entirely like what he saw there. The fact that Kyon had been acting like Taniguchi was in that one scene, is what made Kyon realize that he had been a bit too harsh on Haruhi, and that played a role in him choosing to be mostly supportive of the movie the rest of the way.
The fact that Kyon caved in to Haruhi's wishes doesn't make his previous objections any less valid. Mikuru let herself get thrown in the lake; that doesn't make it okay that Haruhi did that. Yes, Kyon did a lot of complaining. But sometimes complaining is deserved! I don't need the author telling me, "Hey, Haruhi is doing something good and since you can't see that, I'm telling you outright. If you don't like it, well, you shouldn't be complaining." Just because the characters reach a different conclusion then the events dictate doesn't make that conclusion correct.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
What I meant by "played up" in this case, is the choice of background music, and the lengthy shots of Mikuru's horrified face. It was a bit overdone, at a simple believability level.
Mikuru's face doesn't stop looking horrified when the camera's off her. It's not like she'd suddenly improve just because no one's looking at her, and those lengthy shots exist to prove a point. As far as believability goes, Mikuru is really quite a wimp. Heck, even the adult version remains uncomfortable around Yuki, so that should speak volumes about the younger one's stoicism.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Also, IIRC, Mikuru's own good friend Tsuruya didn't seem to think there was much wrong with what Haruhi wanted Mikuru to do here. I find it odd that Haruhi gets so much heat for the events of Sigh, while Tsuruya (who happily played right along with Haruhi every step of the way, enjoying it quite enthusiastically) gets a complete pass from people, it seems.
I think Tsuruya is let off the hook because she's almost childlike in her treatment of anything serious. It wasn't until Itsuki physically prevented Kyon from punching Haruhi that Tsuruya realized that there might be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm ignoring no such thing. I'm simply presenting the other side of the issue.
Right, and acting like that was the part I had the objection to.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You're missing the point of this quote. This quote basically shows how unreliable a narrator Kyon is. He's not unhappy because he doesn't know who or what brought about this change. He's unhappy simply because he doesn't like the change period, but he can't admit to himself (yet) that he doesn't like the change.
Ugh. I'm not saying that Kyon is taking issue with not knowing the reason behind something unpleasant, and even if I was, focusing on that completely destroys its relevance. I say right there what I'm trying to take out of the quote, and that's not it.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So, should a parent never scold a child then? A parental scolding is obviously done "against the will" of the child in question (i.e. the child probably doesn't want to be scolded). But that parental scolding could help to raise the child into being a better person.
Arguably, that's the whole point of discipline, and it's that point that makes it completely unlike what's going on here. Haruhi isn't trying to improve Mikuru for Mikuru's sake. She wants Mikuru to do things for her movie, and that's the extent of it. She doesn't care one bit about the long-term effects.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Mikuru can leave the SOS Brigade whenever she wants. She chooses to be a member of the SOS Brigade of her own volition, and by the point of Sigh in the broader narrative, she ought to know what that entails for her.

Haruhi imposes her will on Mikuru, in part, because Mikuru lets her.
Um, yeah, because Mikuru believes (correctly) that all the stuff that is happening has to happen in order to preserve the future she comes from. "This was probably an inevitability on this time plane." She's there because Haruhi is a big deal, and her job is to watch for any time alterations caused by Haruhi. I'm pretty sure that if Mikuru thought there was an easier way, she'd take it.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:40   Link #519
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Okay, but I said she WASN'T in a bad mood. Wasn't.
Not when looking for Asakura, no. She was in a bad mood when she wasn't allowed to wear the bunny suit while passing out SOS Brigade flyers to fellow classmates.


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The fact that Kyon caved in to Haruhi's wishes doesn't make his previous objections any less valid.
Not all of them, no. Haruhi did cross the line a bit in how she treated Mikuru, yes.

But, frankly, Kyon was complaining too much about every little choice that Haruhi made. There was a discouraging mood and tone to him that was not unlike Taniguchi's when Taniguchi trash-talked Haruhi's film. When Kyon heard Taniguchi say that, it clicked for him that he himself had been acting too much like how Taniguchi was acting in that one moment.

Instead of just being negative about almost everything that Haruhi did with her movie, he probably should have been more generally supportive of Haruhi's core idea (showing school spirit by wanting to make a student film for a school cultural festival), and tried to steer it in a certain direction with some positive reinforcement to go along with the more serious and valid complaints.

The problem with complaining about every little detail that isn't exactly the way you'd like it is that people can start tuning you out when you get to the more important flaws or problems. If Kyon had shown more positive interest in the Mikuru movie, and if he had said even just once or twice "You know, that's a good creative idea there, Haruhi. I think that'll work well in the movie", it might have made Haruhi try to do more of what Kyon was complimenting (consider how quickly she changes her hairstyle for him ), and less of the truly egregious stuff. It also probably would have made Haruhi take Kyon's complaints more seriously, as they wouldn't come off as just "Kyon being Kyon" to her.

Honestly, I can easily imagine Haruhi thinking 'Sigh. Here he goes yet again. Why is he so incredibly picky?! I'm trying to have fun making a good student film here, and he just keeps complaining over everything' when Kyon started to object to the Koizumi/Mikuru love scene.


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Mikuru let herself get thrown in the lake; that doesn't make it okay that Haruhi did that.
Well, would the scene had been as good if it had been at an indoor pool, or at a more populated area? At a creative level, I can genuinely see Haruhi's point here. Someone being thrown in a lake, with no innocent bystanders around, might seem a bit more threatening (and perhaps less cliche) then someone being thrown into an indoor pool.

Was making a slightly better scene worth the sacrifice on Mikuru's part, though? I don't know. Maybe not. I will say, though, that it's not exactly beyond what even an average teenager might endure to make a film, even a student film. I also personally know a couple guys who actually make backyard pro wrestling films. What they put their bodies through would make what Haruhi expected of Mikuru here look like a walk in the park.


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Yes, Kyon did a lot of complaining. But sometimes complaining is deserved!
I think he takes it too far sometimes. I definitely think that he took it too far during the making of the Mikuru movie.


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I don't need the author telling me, "Hey, Haruhi is doing something good and since you can't see that, I'm telling you outright. If you don't like it, well, you shouldn't be complaining." Just because the characters reach a different conclusion then the events dictate doesn't make that conclusion correct.
I don't think that "the events dictate" how you're choosing to take Sigh. I think that the conclusions ultimately reached by Kyon are perfectly in line with the events up to that point.


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Mikuru's face doesn't stop looking horrified when the camera's off her. It's not like she'd suddenly improve just because no one's looking at her, and those lengthy shots exist to prove a point. As far as believability goes, Mikuru is really quite a wimp.
Yeah, she is. And that's a problem, don't you think? Isn't that something Mikuru should get over, for her own sake? And if Haruhi is helping her do that, then isn't that a good thing?


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Heck, even the adult version remains uncomfortable around Yuki, so that should speak volumes about the younger one's stoicism.
I think that says more about Yuki than it does about adult Mikuru. Yuki is clearly fearsomely efficient, intelligent, and powerful. And not always on the side of "the good guys", as this very movie makes clear. Can't really blame adult Mikuru for being a bit afraid of her.


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I think Tsuruya is let off the hook because she's almost childlike in her treatment of anything serious.
Haruhi can be like that as well, though.



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Arguably, that's the whole point of discipline, and it's that point that makes it completely unlike what's going on here. Haruhi isn't trying to improve Mikuru for Mikuru's sake.
That's actually not true.

From Sigh Part 5, with everyone on a rooftop...

Haruhi: Alright! Loudly now!

Mikuru: Our target is Hollywood and Broadway! We're coming for you, Golden Bear Award!

Haruhi: That's it! Now, point towards the future!


Honestly, there were even slight shades of Kamina (Haruhi) and Simon (Mikuru) in this scene.

Haruhi clearly wants Mikuru to do well and be successful. I mean, dude, even Kyon smiled here when these lines quoted above were spoken, obviously pleased by how Haruhi was showing real friendship and support towards Mikuru.


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She wants Mikuru to do things for her movie, and that's the extent of it.
No, that's not the extent of it, as what I quoted above proves. You're truly missing much of the good side to Haruhi's character by not paying enough attention to the subtleties of her character. But, then, you're hardly alone in this regard, as I've found...


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She doesn't care one bit about the long-term effects.
Wrong. She does care. Again, she clearly wants Mikuru to be successful.


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Um, yeah, because Mikuru believes (correctly) that all the stuff that is happening has to happen in order to preserve the future she comes from. "This was probably an inevitability on this time plane." She's there because Haruhi is a big deal, and her job is to watch for any time alterations caused by Haruhi. I'm pretty sure that if Mikuru thought there was an easier way, she'd take it.
I'm pretty sure that she wanted this job, and that she ends up being thankful that she took it.
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Old 2010-12-28, 01:03   Link #520
CrowKenobi
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*sigh* Are we discussing the movie or are we discussing the previous TV series? If it's the former, keep it up; if it's the latter, this is not the thread for it. Let's remember that.
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