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Old 2010-12-27, 05:22   Link #3081
Doc Astaroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

Kumagawa being the real hero? Can anyone fucking come up with this as a premise while actually possessing higher brain functions? Sure, he has a more 'realistic' personality than Medaka does, but if you would actually empathize with him over her you are less than human. Kumagawa is the embodiment of laziness and self-gratification, to the point that he would actually wish for a world where studying or working are forbidden and universal participation in indiscriminate sexual relations is mandatory. Kumagawa is not about making everybody the same, he is about forcefully dragging down the rest of the world to his level of absolute personal failure. He is an absolute and terrifying villain precisely because he embodies the act of irrevocably succumbing to our 'realistic' base human desires.
Actually, I fear, we will feel very sorry for the Minus someday:
Spoiler:


In case of "Kumagawa may be an hero":

Who knows, maybe "Mysterious Girl", aka "Aijimi", will turn out to be the true Big Bad and Kumagawa tried to kill her at middle school, because she wanted to release this "Beast" inside Medaka. XD

EDIT: I just noticed, that Kumagawa shows a lot more (fake) face expression now, like "sad" or "bored"... And he never falls to amuse me with his antics! If Zenkichi is "Normal Cool", you can call Kumagawa "Evil Cool".


Quote:
Even forcing everyone to work hard and be happy is unquestionably better than that. Real world or fiction, your offense towards Medaka's core personality really can't amount to anything more than a defense of 'people's right to be lazy'. "Poor me, the world is a sucky place where people who ain't geniuses can't be happy; it is my right to make a mediocre little shit of myself and you can't talk cause god gave you h4x brains and money" is all "she's a tyrant who should be taken down a notch" basically says to me. It is true enough that most people can't reasonably be expected to be a Medaka or a Zenkichi, but to take offense that they actually bother to struggle and succeed is purely misguided.
I think, the problem here is "forcing"! There are two kinds of people in my opinion: The kind, who wants to live peaceful according to the "Rules" and the other one who wants to live free "on their own". It is the old fight "Hobbes vs. Rosseau".

Someone like Medaka is maybe a hero for people of the first kind, but the natural enemy to people of the second. Maybe it will become a later plotpoint, that her "The End" starts to "perfect" other people, taking away their amusing character flaws and makes them "boring" (Arguably, that already happened!), and the only character, who keeps his flaws (bad fashion style, etc.) is Zenkichi, because "he doesn´t change".


Or so they say...

Spoiler for Spoiler for 81:

Last edited by Doc Astaroth; 2010-12-27 at 06:36.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:14   Link #3082
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Astaroth View Post
Actually, I fear, we will feel very sorry for the Minus someday:
Spoiler:
Yeah, no doubt the minus will also each get some backstory explaining their actions and personality, but that can not and will not change the meaning of the outcome they are pursuing.

Quote:
In case of "Kumagawa may be an hero":

Who knows, maybe "Mysterious Girl", aka "Aijimi", will turn out to be the true Big Bad and Kumagawa tried to kill her at middle school, because she wanted to release this "Beast" inside Medaka. XD
Kumagawa's motivations fundamentally emerge from his minus, which by definition is 'absolute failure'. The only thing Kumagawa can even try to do is drag others down in failure along with him. As such, although Kumagawa may eventually end up being portrayed as a victim, there is basically zero chance of him ever qualifying as what is known as a 'hero'.

Quote:
I think, the problem here is "forcing"! There are two kinds of people in my opinion: The kind, who wants to live peaceful according to the "Rules" and the other one who wants to live free "on their own". It is the old fight "Hobbes vs. Rosseau".

Someone like Medaka is maybe a hero for people of the first kind, but the natural enemy to people of the second. Maybe it will become a later plotpoint, that her "The End" starts to "perfect" other people, taking away their amusing character flaws and makes them "boring" (Arguably, that already happened!), and the only character, who keeps his flaws (bad fashion style, etc.) is Zenkichi, because "he doesn´t change".
We might be using the word 'forcing', but you cannot in all honestly claim that Medaka's 'forcefulness' in any way compares to the opponents she is facing. Unzen's violent admonishment of rule breakers, Oudou's weight of words, etc. etc. The key point as far as Medaka and force is concerned is that it's not possible to 'force' people to be happy; happiness is something people have to believe in and want on their own. So long as people's happiness is her goal, Medaka will fundamentally stand for more freedom than the 'equality' being pursued by the likes of Kumagawa/the Flask Plan. Aside from people's provocations in order to try to set off her mindless 'beast mode', Medaka can only be said to be 'forceful' insofar as she expends great effort trying to help people.
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Old 2010-12-27, 10:50   Link #3083
Shadow5YA
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Even though the Minus by definition have destructive powers, it doesn't mean they can't use them constructively. Kumagawa just showed Emukae how to help grow plants by decomposing organic material to create fertile soil. If a destructive power can still have constructive uses, then maybe the Minus aren't beyond redemption after all. Of course, whether that will actually happen is a different story.

Also, while Kumagawa himself is overwhemingly a Minus, his powers don't add up other Minuses on his team. For example, Emukae and Shibuki are free to use their powers on Kumagawa without fear of hurting anyone because he can nullify them. For such a Minus, his powers don't really make other Minus worse or amplify them.
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:31   Link #3084
Sol Falling
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Well, I haven't really seen other minuses building up on each other either, so minuses having the ability to increase other's minus hasn't yet been shown to be a factor. Kumagawa's position as leader seems to be down more to his charisma; his h4x/virtual invincibility perhaps playing the key role in allowing the minus to interact without destroying each other. For precisely that reason, Kumagawa's motivations/intentions become the most important ones, regardless of constructive possibilities which might exist for the other minus. And we've seen/been told what those motivations are, so as the situation stands, until Kumagawa is defeated by Medaka, he will certainly irrevocably remain the villain.
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:59   Link #3085
KLGChaos
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First,

Thank you, Sol Falling, for verbally attacking and flaming me and proving what I said about people not being able to accept others views and opinions. :salute:

On another note, I never said Kumagawa was a good guy and inexplicitly states I don't like his view of the world. Everything I presented about him being a possible hero is theory, which is what discussion forums are about, right? You know, presenting new and unique insights into what could happen. Oh right, they're for ganging up on people who don't follow the crowd.

Which brings me to what Doc Astaroth said. I'm very much someone in the second camp. I believe that people should be allowed to think for themselves with being forced to live a certain way. Medaka is nowhere near as bad as someone like King, obviously, but in her own words she's a tyrant. It's not like I'm pulling this out of nowhere, as there are examples-- 1) the delinquents in the first chapter. They weren't harming anyone, just chilling out having a smoke. So what does Medaka do? Steals all their cigarettes and basically kicks them out. It's their life, they have a right to live it how they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone. 2) The swim team arc. She didn't like the way the swim team risked their lives to win and said that she'd force then to change. They weren't really unhappy in any way, they were just willing to risk everything to win. As soon as thy stopped and did what she wanted, she eas all for them. If she's going to force them to change because they shouldn't be risking their lives for money, then she'll need to outlaw NASCAR and Motocross racing as well, considering the how risky those professions are. Again, it's their life and they weren't hurting anyone else-- they were just willing to risk more to win.

It's that kind of attitude that I don't like, no matter what the intentions are. If I was a D&D character, I'd be neutral good-- I believe some laws are necessary to protect people, but there's plenty that are pure garbage that are designed to "protect people from themselves". It's their lives.

People have also drawn parallels between Medaka and Jesus. It really does remind me of Catholism in a way. There's plenty of people out there who worship, but live their own lives. Others, however, are nothing more than sheep who follow blindly, even if it means stepping on others in the process. Heck, jus look at the Christian god. He didn't want people to have a free will in the first place, so he banishes then from paradise when they get it. After Jesus sacrifices himself, he goes "Ok, you can have free will, but if you don't worship me, I'll send you to an eternity of torture." That kind of thinking doesn't fly with me, no matter how much paradise is offered. I like thinking for myself, thank you.

Who knows... Maybe Nishio is trying to do a satire of Christianity, with Medaka as Jesus, the abnormals who follow her as disciples and Ajimi (Ajimu?) as the god figure and Kumagawa as Satan. Maybe Zen will be Judas.

Anyway, I'll take my lower brain function and get back to work.
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Old 2010-12-27, 16:46   Link #3086
Soji
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Originally Posted by Doc Astaroth View Post
Or so they say...

Spoiler for Spoiler for 81:
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-27, 17:19   Link #3087
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
First,

Thank you, Sol Falling, for verbally attacking and flaming me and proving what I said about people not being able to accept others views and opinions. :salute:

On another note, I never said Kumagawa was a good guy and inexplicitly states I don't like his view of the world. Everything I presented about him being a possible hero is theory, which is what discussion forums are about, right? You know, presenting new and unique insights into what could happen. Oh right, they're for ganging up on people who don't follow the crowd.

Which brings me to what Doc Astaroth said. I'm very much someone in the second camp. I believe that people should be allowed to think for themselves with being forced to live a certain way. Medaka is nowhere near as bad as someone like King, obviously, but in her own words she's a tyrant. It's not like I'm pulling this out of nowhere, as there are examples-- 1) the delinquents in the first chapter. They weren't harming anyone, just chilling out having a smoke. So what does Medaka do? Steals all their cigarettes and basically kicks them out. It's their life, they have a right to live it how they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone. 2) The swim team arc. She didn't like the way the swim team risked their lives to win and said that she'd force then to change. They weren't really unhappy in any way, they were just willing to risk everything to win. As soon as thy stopped and did what she wanted, she eas all for them. If she's going to force them to change because they shouldn't be risking their lives for money, then she'll need to outlaw NASCAR and Motocross racing as well, considering the how risky those professions are. Again, it's their life and they weren't hurting anyone else-- they were just willing to risk more to win.

It's that kind of attitude that I don't like, no matter what the intentions are. If I was a D&D character, I'd be neutral good-- I believe some laws are necessary to protect people, but there's plenty that are pure garbage that are designed to "protect people from themselves". It's their lives.

People have also drawn parallels between Medaka and Jesus. It really does remind me of Catholism in a way. There's plenty of people out there who worship, but live their own lives. Others, however, are nothing more than sheep who follow blindly, even if it means stepping on others in the process. Heck, jus look at the Christian god. He didn't want people to have a free will in the first place, so he banishes then from paradise when they get it. After Jesus sacrifices himself, he goes "Ok, you can have free will, but if you don't worship me, I'll send you to an eternity of torture." That kind of thinking doesn't fly with me, no matter how much paradise is offered. I like thinking for myself, thank you.

Who knows... Maybe Nishio is trying to do a satire of Christianity, with Medaka as Jesus, the abnormals who follow her as disciples and Ajimi (Ajimu?) as the god figure and Kumagawa as Satan. Maybe Zen will be Judas.

Anyway, I'll take my lower brain function and get back to work.
Wow, this makes no sense. To start with, those delinquents shouldn't have been in the kendo hall in the first place. I'm also loving the way how you ignore the fact that smoking is generally frowned upon in schools. As for the swim team, they were basically playing Russian Roulette with their lives. If that's cool with you, that's fine. I suppose if someone keels over in the street, you should leave them alone, right? Since it's their life. Your misunderstanding of Christianity is something that's astonishing. It's like saying that you should be allowed to go into a shop and take out whatever you like without paying.
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Old 2010-12-27, 17:45   Link #3088
KLGChaos
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They weren't playing Russian roulette with their lives. Yeah, they were doing something risky, but as I said, that happens every day with a lot of different things people do. Bungee jumping, sky diving, etc. If someone keeled over, yes, I would help them. But the swim team didn't. They were highly trained and taking the risks on their own. It's not mine or anyone else's place to tell them how they should live. As for the delinquents, yeah, they probably shouldn't be smoking on school grounds, but if I remember correctly (not sure if I do, as I haven't read it in a while) Medaka also takes the cigarettes because "they're harmful to their health". Again, it's their decision. Not saying it's a good one, but it's theirs to make. As for the Kendo hall thing, I think it wasn't even being used at the time and they were Kendo club members, just delinquent ones.

And my understanding of Christianity, from those in my family that I've dealt with, basically says "God kicked us out of Eden because we disobeyed him and gained knowledge from eating the apple (basically, he wanted us to stay ignorant and submissive). Then, because of something the first humans did, all people born now come tainted with original sin and be baptized or go to Hell (or Purgatory). Oh, and you have to worship him if you want to go heaven, otherwise you go to Hell." Of course, I don't believe any this as I pretty much see religion as an institution designed to control people (do as we want you to or burn for eternity). Plus, I supposed a Jehovah's Witness is probably not the best source. But, I'm not here to start a religious debate. I'm just providing reasons for why I don't like some things about the manga. If you like it and love Medaka, that's fine. Different people have different tastes. Oh, and if you read through my post, I said people should be allowed to live how they want as long as they don't hurt other people. Taking something without paying would be stealing and is definitely under the harmful category.

That being said, I am looking forward to the Hitomi fight. I want to know why she didn't freak out when her son was declared dead. She should have been right up there with Medaka hysteria-wise. I just wish Nishio would turn down the action a little bit and focus more on the story. Feels like almost non-stop action since the flask plan started and I prefer my action with a bit more story (more like Naruto, less like Bleach).

As for the spoiler:

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-27, 18:11   Link #3089
Endscape
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She didn't force them to do anything. They are perfectly free to do whatever, she just pointed out the stupidity of it. And the Kendo club got dissolved, they were just delinquents.

In the case of Adam and Eve, they got kicked out because they ate God's fruit, a.k.a. stealing. As for heaven, you can do whatever you please, God isn't forcing anyone to do anything, such as with Satan, etc, you can just go to hell later.
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Old 2010-12-27, 19:44   Link #3090
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
First,

Thank you, Sol Falling, for verbally attacking and flaming me and proving what I said about people not being able to accept others views and opinions. :salute:
lol, and thank you for coming back and posting after your flashy 'departure'. I think people still ragging on Medaka's personality is unacceptable, we should be sooo past that by this point in the manga. If you can acknowledge that Medaka's opponents i.e. Unzen, Miyakanoujou, Kumagawa are by far worse than her as far as force is concerned, and use basic narrative-comprehension abilities to understand that those kind of people have been all she's been fighting against for--what? sixty chapters--then there is absolutely nothing to complain about. Individual freedoms or whatever, to have actually rooted for Kumagawa's ploy to corrupt Medaka to be successful is doin' it W-R-O-N-G, no objections.

In Naze's arc just now, Medaka 'forced' her to not give up and find a ridiculous shounen-heroine powerup in the midst of a miserable and hopelessly lost battle, by unreasonably believing in and counting on her. Oh yeah, so tyrannical right? It was Naze's own life really, Medaka should have just let her live it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
They weren't playing Russian roulette with their lives. Yeah, they were doing something risky, but as I said, that happens every day with a lot of different things people do. Bungee jumping, sky diving, etc. If someone keeled over, yes, I would help them. But the swim team didn't. They were highly trained and taking the risks on their own. It's not mine or anyone else's place to tell them how they should live. As for the delinquents, yeah, they probably shouldn't be smoking on school grounds, but if I remember correctly (not sure if I do, as I haven't read it in a while) Medaka also takes the cigarettes because "they're harmful to their health". Again, it's their decision. Not saying it's a good one, but it's theirs to make. As for the Kendo hall thing, I think it wasn't even being used at the time and they were Kendo club members, just delinquent ones.
So people take up bungee jumping/sky diving 'cause they're dirt poor and starving for money, right? It's not like enjoying a hobby or passion for fun actually makes them happy, they surely all suffer/endure physical strain/pain and purposely take life-risking actions because they have to out of (financial) necessity. In that case, yeah, Medaka might actually be serving justice if she were shutting down bloody desperation-driven spectator sports like that.

Or no? Letting students risk their lives on school property for the sake of petty club funds is actually the proper path for a freedom-respecting Student Council President? People should be free to harm themselves whenever they want, wherever they want, so long as they don't harm other people, is that right? Damn, educational institutions world-wide should totally start taking after this example right now, we've been totally misguided this whole time, ohnoes!

.../sarcasm :P
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Old 2010-12-28, 03:52   Link #3091
Westlo
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lol, and thank you for coming back and posting after your flashy 'departure'.
It's only like the tenth time in this thread he's said he will no longer post in it and than came right back in.
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Old 2010-12-28, 04:55   Link #3092
KLGChaos
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It's only like the tenth time in this thread he's said he will no longer post in it and than came right back in.
I only came back after being verbally attacked. I've never flamed anyone on this site, so I should be able to expect the same courtesy in return, but I guess that's too much to ask. I also realized that if I stopped posting, it basically be like letting myself get driven out by a bunch of people who won't accept that others have beliefs and opinions that differ from theirs. I'm not that nice. :P

Not liking Medaka right now has nothing to do with the other characters, like Unzen and King. I just don't like her or her personality, whether she's the good guy or not. It's just not the type of character I like. I do like Zen, Kimaijima and many of the other characters. However, I do wish they had some better character development than a couple pages of flashback, a fight and then get tossed away like many of the characters have been. I like Nishio's other works, but I don't like the way he just introduces characters to get rid of them. I like things more focused.

Anyway, I'd rather get back to doing what the forums are intended for-- discussing the manga. If you guys love it, that's great. All the power to you. But please, just because someone doesn't agree with your points of view on things, don't bash them. I've never done it to you.

So... Anyone have any theories on what's up with Hitomi? You think she knows more about Ajimi than she let's on? Or is she hiding something about Zenkichi, considering how calm she was when he died? And I thought minuses were minuses because the powers they have contribute nothing to society? I can understand Deadscar, because that really doesn't do much. But Emukae's ability to create instant fertilizer would make farmers around the world happy... Though, I don't know how that relates to her ability to control plants.
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Old 2010-12-28, 05:13   Link #3093
Westlo
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I'm just saying man, stop saying this is going to be your last post (for whatever reason) and than come straight back in, it's not a good look man. If you don't want to post in this thread again than do just that, no need to announce it.
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Old 2010-12-28, 13:35   Link #3094
Bonta Kun
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lol wtf?!

first a giant freezer room that is as cold as the poles and then a botanical garden thats got thousands of species of plant life and considered a national treasure!?

oh man I love how this series doesn't let with the absurdness and cause of that you just gotta love it!

Well all I can say for now is I love Naze-chan and Medaka face planting Kumagawa
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:31   Link #3095
Last Carpet
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Originally Posted by Doc Astaroth View Post
Actually, I fear, we will feel very sorry for the Minus someday:
Spoiler:
Now that I think about it, that's probably what would happen to Medaka if she fought and took on their Minuses.
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Old 2010-12-29, 15:20   Link #3096
Rejuvenation
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Wow, this thread sure erupted. I'm glad I didn't have to be on the front lines for this one.

Spoiler for 81:


Quote:
Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
So... Anyone have any theories on what's up with Hitomi? You think she knows more about Ajimi than she let's on? Or is she hiding something about Zenkichi, considering how calm she was when he died? And I thought minuses were minuses because the powers they have contribute nothing to society? I can understand Deadscar, because that really doesn't do much. But Emukae's ability to create instant fertilizer would make farmers around the world happy... Though, I don't know how that relates to her ability to control plants.
I'm not going to speculate on the Hitomi bit but as far as the Minuses go, I think I'd call them that because of their destructive capacity/potential rather than just because they contribute nothing to society alone. Sure, Emukae is using her Minus to grow plants right now but if you think about it thats not a good thing either. Look at the rate of the growth. These things are expanding in a matter of seconds it looks like. Hyper-growth of plants would throw off the eco-system all over the globe and destroy human civilization.

Since Emukae can't really turn off her Minus like Shibuki can, she probably can't just leave it at growing flowers and trees. Nothing Kumagawa suggests would be a "Plus" as we know.
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Old 2010-12-30, 17:22   Link #3097
Tenchi Hou Take
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Wow, this thread sure erupted. I'm glad I didn't have to be on the front lines for this one.

Spoiler for 81:



Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-30, 19:43   Link #3098
Doc Astaroth
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New Spoiler:

Spoiler:


I try to translate:

Spoiler:


Summary:

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-30, 20:43   Link #3099
Iron21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Astaroth View Post
New Spoiler:

Spoiler:


I try to translate:

Spoiler:


Summary:

Spoiler:
Wow!

I'm speechless, I don't even know where too start with this spoiler.

Spoiler for 81:
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Old 2010-12-30, 22:35   Link #3100
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Iron21 View Post
Wow!

I'm speechless, I don't even know where too start with this spoiler.

Spoiler for 81:
Spoiler:

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2010-12-30 at 23:08.
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