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Old 2010-12-27, 22:17   Link #20461
Jan-Poo
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The irony being that the 900 tons isnt even part of that backstory, it's just a line or two used to explain the threat of the clock mechanism. It's not even really verified by anything.
Right, even if we trust that the whole story was the truth, it is still possible that Beatrice lied.

The only problem is that the 1 km wide crater must be true, because that's what remains once the "catbox is opened". Considering that Ange witnessed that story it's very unlikely that the crater was a lie considering that she must know the official reports and she's been on the site.

Ryuukishi then confirmed that an explosion that affected a wide area existed, and EP4 was full of hints that implied it.


So I really don't think that the crater is a lie, but I'm almost certain that the story of the 900 tons was just made up by someone who wanted to explain the incident with something gruesome and dramatic.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:20   Link #20462
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Kinzo likely wasn't as ready to die as he made himself out to be.
I wouldn't want to blow up a lot of useful stuff if I was laying a giant kamikaze trap.
Probably not nearly 900 tons of explosives. Just enough to blow up the mansion+surrounding area. Kuwadorian makes it out unharmed, you know?
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:22   Link #20463
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The crater is actually the result of a meteor hitting the mansion. The meteor came from Krauss' moon property.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:23   Link #20464
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You know, I was playing this DS game recently called 999 and they bring up a character who has prosopagnosia. Is it possible that Maria also has this?
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:24   Link #20465
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It was brought up before... can't remember how the conversation went... cause I think it didn't matter in the end
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:25   Link #20466
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
The reason why I trust Jessica's and Maria's stories more than Kinzo's? Cause I'm treating theatergoing authority similar to my understanding of author theory. I'd actually argue the theatergoing authority is author theory forcibly being read from the actual author's perspective. Maria's description of how she met Beato and why she wants to be a witch are within what I'd call her "character" and doesn't openly contradict what we know/she describes. Same thing goes for Jessica.

But Kinzo? We immediately have contradictions that make me suspicious. He wants to sign up for the war so he can die, yet he tells his superiors he has good knowledge in foreign languages and I think engineering(?), stuff that you would normally do to keep yourself from being a grunt. The base is understocked yet there's somehow 900 tons of explosives for his personal clock bomb. His description of Yamamoto(?) contradicts what we're shown during the tea party as well as Kinzo's description. Kinzo is also the guy who started off as ridiculously epic, to a somewhat normal if eccentric patriarch, to an absolutely epic character again.

Sure, if you want to reduce it to the absolute base level, I "like" Jessica and Maria more. But I don't think I'm unjustified in not trusting everything Kinzo says.
A subjective belief is your right, but that doesn't mean it's a fair way of measuring anything. Ultimately you're discarding things because you don't like them.

That being said, Kinzo never described the 900 tons of explosives. Nor did he detail the existence of the clock mechanism. That was all Beatrice. Attributing that contradiction to him is...poor reading.

And what of Yamamoto are we shown in the Tea Party, exactly? Whats directly contradicted? And how does Kinzo's description contradict Kinzo's description, exactly?

And Kinzo is an epic character, even if he has his human moments. Kinzo is still a man that got himself 100 tons of gold, bought an island, built up a gigantic fortune and forged connections in a post-war Japan, and also lead a double life with his hot Italian love.

And that kick ass cape. That fucking cape. In what way is Kinzo not epic?

The problem with your distrust isnt that you're skeptical of "some" of the things Kinzo is saying, but you're looking for reasons to ignore "everything" he's saying that's inconvenient for your interpretation.

And there are flaws with your interpretation outside of Kinzo's testimony to begin with.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:25   Link #20467
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You know, I was playing this DS game recently called 999 and they bring up a character who has prosopagnosia. Is it possible that Maria also has this?

Funny, someone recently proposed the same theory, I guess he played the same game. Well it was discussed, but the common consensus is that while it's not impossible it's not necessary to explain Maria's behavior and there is no real evidence.


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The crater is actually the result of a meteor hitting the mansion. The meteor came from Krauss' moon property.
Ah that's how Krauss spent all of his money, it was a for a space project meant to create a cosmic meteor slingshot which he'd later use to conquer the world!
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:27   Link #20468
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Funny, someone recently proposed the same theory, I guess he played the same game. Well it was discussed, but the common consensus is that while it's not impossible it's not necessary to explain Maria's behavior and there is no real evidence.




Ah that's how Krauss spent all of his money, it was a for a space project meant to create a cosmic meteor slingshot which he'd later use to conquer the world!
The culprit was James Bond, who caused a malfunction in the device causing it to flatten Rokkenjimma during the conference!
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:30   Link #20469
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The culprit was James Bond, who caused a malfunction in the device causing it to flatten Rokkenjimma during the conference!
Knox 5. No stereotyped englishman must figure in the story!
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:33   Link #20470
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Knox 5. No stereotyped englishman must figure in the story!
Sean Connery is no stereotypical Englishman!
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:37   Link #20471
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Sean Connery is no stereotypical Englishman!
Sean Connery is scottish but you were talking about James Bond who is british!
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:40   Link #20472
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Sean Connery is scottish but you were talking about James Bond who is british!
Then in order for Knox's 5th to apply you'll need to establish which Stereotype James Bond is, exactly. Austin Powers, for example, is a stereotype. Being the progenitor of what would later become a stereotype would not necessarily mean that they would be considered one.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:48   Link #20473
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He's a stereotyped spy hero!

But let's drop it here it went too far...
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:58   Link #20474
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@TehChron
I'll say this: I think due to me getting overheated in this discussion, I have portrayed myself in a way that isn't accurate, a flaw I need to correct.

I never meant to imply that the 900 tons should be attributed Kinzo. Hell, I don't even think the 900 tons even exist. But if they do, as unlikely as that may be, there's something to be noted cause there's no way it could be the understocked/developed base that Kinzo describes.

What I think about Yamamoto's description is contradictory? That he's described as a cowardly gangster by Kinzo and then having the tea party say that he's appalled that Kinzo would suggest stealing the gold. Maybe he's covering his bases, maybe he's not, but noted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Kinzo's description of himself but I got the impression that he said he didn't care about stealing the gold and only wanted to spend time with Beatrice. Tea party scene would suggest otherwise.

I'll admit, bringing up Kinzo's epicness was silly because I've never once felt he wasn't epic but rather that the story was trying to sell him as epic, then pretending to be somewhat human, and then right back to epic.

Finally, I'm not the smartest person, so I was wondering if you could point where my interpretation of how the theatre-going authority works is flawed...?
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:02   Link #20475
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Originally Posted by delita-umw- View Post
@TehChron
I'll say this: I think due to me getting overheated in this discussion, I have portrayed myself in a way that isn't accurate, a flaw I need to correct.

I never meant to imply that the 900 tons should be attributed Kinzo. Hell, I don't even think the 900 tons even exist. But if they do, as unlikely as that may be, there's something to be noted cause there's no way it could be the understocked/developed base that Kinzo describes.

What I think about Yamamoto's description is contradictory? That he's described as a cowardly gangster by Kinzo and then having the tea party say that he's appalled that Kinzo would suggest stealing the gold. Maybe he's covering his bases, maybe he's not, but noted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Kinzo's description of himself but I got the impression that he said he didn't care about stealing the gold and only wanted to spend time with Beatrice. Tea party scene would suggest otherwise.

I'll admit, bringing up Kinzo's epicness was silly because I've never once felt he wasn't epic but rather that the story was trying to sell him as epic, then pretending to be somewhat human, and then right back to epic.

Finally, I'm not the smartest person, so I was wondering if you could point where my interpretation of how the theatre-going authority works is flawed...?
Where did I say it was?
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:10   Link #20476
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Err, were you referring to my judgment on the believability of Jessica and Maria then?
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:14   Link #20477
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Err, were you referring to my judgment on the believability of Jessica and Maria then?
I was referring to your subjective reasons for giving Jessica and Maria more credit than Kinzo.
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:29   Link #20478
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Is there anything that I missed that would call into question their stories?
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:32   Link #20479
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Is there anything that calls into question Kinzo's story besides the red guts scene, which is very questionable in it's trustworthiness?
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Old 2010-12-27, 23:32   Link #20480
TehChron
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Is there anything that I missed that would call into question their stories?
I pointed out the flaws in your criticisms of Kinzo, then questioned why Jessica and Maria are more reliable sources than he is.

There are holes in your reasoning. Thats all.
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