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Old 2010-12-16, 09:09   Link #101
Nintendo Maniac 64
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But for one, you can have a kuudere character "defrosted".
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Old 2010-12-18, 17:52   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I hate to say this because you're arguing pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.

TV tropes describes the word "tsundere" as a merger of "aloof or irritable" and lovestruck. Kuudere, on the other hand, is a merger of cool and lovestruck. Not cold, just cool.

Does Sakaki have a "cold" exterior? No, people just assign her a "cool" image. Same with Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. (Although in that case, the image is only part cool - it's also "scary loner girl".)

And the idea that "kuu" means "cool" isn't just something I came up with: take a look at how this poster defines the difference between "kuudere" and the little used term "dandere", for instance. The "cool" factor is front and center:
http://bangin.wordpress.com/2008/04/...%83%ACdandere/

I consider any behaviour that could qualify as "abrasive" tsun, so to me intentionally acting cold to someone is a kind of tsun, and characters that do this are better described as a tsundere or tsundere-kuudere hybrid, not pure kuudere.

The defrosting ice queen/tsundere distinction you make is useful, the issue is that defrosting ice queen is a TVtropes term, not anime fan slang. Many anime fans would use tsundere simply because they don't know or don't care about the other term.
Kuudere was originally under Tsundere, but as I mentioned it seem to have branched out into it's own term.

Now a days if you ask for examples of Tsundere from average anime watcher, you get girls like Rin (fate/stay), Asuka (EVA), Naru(Love Hina) and Kallen(Code Geass), the more aggressive ones.

I suppose if you want to you can group Kuudere under the banner of Tsundere as a subtype, but that kind of leaves the "aggressive" version with no specific name. :x

As for Sakaki, hers is more of a case of mistaken identity. XD
I group her under Dandere, who due to her appearance (her height) and unfortunate coincidences ended up getting a "cool girl" image perceived by the rest of the cast.
But we the audience know better right?

I personally don't mind using non-anime slang, for instance girls like Rei(EVA) and Yuki(Haruhi) don't really fit into Kuudere nor Dandere IMO - there is no facade and the dere-dere side is relatively weak nor are they shy.
Ice queen maybe, but they aren't really that cold ... just stoic.
Emotionless Girl is my pick - they are not really completely emotionless, it's just that their emotional side are "weak" (in the case of Rei and Yuki if you have watched those show I think you will know why).

So many opinions and ways to argue. XD
The definition of Tsundere is particularity "divding", hence confusing, which was why I suggested standardizing on terms in the discussion.

This is the problem with language slang I suppose, unlike natural languages themselves or "artificial" computer languages, there is no standardizing authority like dictionaries or standard organisations to properly define things.

I wonder at times what the Japanese (who came up with these terms) think of the terms themselves.
I got a feeling they are just a divided.
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Last edited by Salt; 2010-12-18 at 18:06.
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Old 2010-12-27, 22:11   Link #103
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It exists in real life, they only go by a different name: Bipolar.
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Old 2010-12-28, 00:23   Link #104
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No no no no no... the "type B" tsundere (as coined by tvtropes) and the yandere & yangire are much closer to bipolar than your traditional "type A" tsundere.
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Old 2010-12-28, 00:41   Link #105
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Its called taking a trend from a personality trait straight thru to the psychosis version that has a medical label, in other words engaging in hyperbole.
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Old 2010-12-28, 00:43   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its called taking a trend from a personality trait straight thru to the psychosis version that has a medical label, in other words engaging in hyperbole.
Yea, since anime frequently does this, pretty much all -dere seem to have some really big issues.

So yes, if I met an anime tsundere, I'd probably want to kill myself, but usually there's more subtle characters that are like that but not nearly as nuts.
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Old 2010-12-28, 01:00   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
It exists in real life, they only go by a different name: Bipolar.
I thought it was more Borderline Personality.
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Old 2010-12-28, 01:04   Link #108
Nintendo Maniac 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajura View Post
I thought it was more Borderline Personality.
Just read the beginning paragraph of the Wikipedia article on that, and I could have sworn it was an article on me. :P (however reading farther does reveal discrepancies)

(disclaimer: I officially do have mental issues, and bipolar isn't one of them)
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Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64; 2010-12-28 at 01:17.
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Old 2010-12-28, 01:09   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its called taking a trend from a personality trait straight thru to the psychosis version that has a medical label, in other words engaging in hyperbole.
Tsundere=bipolar originates from an afk fansub (specifically for Lucky Star), just like moe=turn on does.

As good as afk's subs generally are, there's quite a few instances like that which I would refer to as "over localization" - "fox udon".
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Old 2010-12-28, 01:58   Link #110
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I got a friend who's like a Tsundere, I talk to her once.

Me: (Joking) "Hey, I love you."

HerAngry) "Idiot, you're disgusting, idiot, hearing that makes me puke."

Me: (Laughing with some listeners) "Hey, you don't need to shout like that, its just a joke, It isn't true, ok"

Her: (Still angry and shouting ) "Geez, just shout up! That's not funny!!!"

Me: (Looks at her) " I said its a joke and yet your still angry?? What do you want, make it real?, its fine by me!!!"

She shouts up qnd looks at me angry while the class are ceering "WOOOHHH, nice dude!!! Are you drunk?!, You're awesome!!!!"
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Old 2010-12-28, 06:24   Link #111
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I'm seeing an entirely different interpretation of that, which I'm not sure is intentional or not, but none the less hilarious...
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Old 2010-12-28, 09:58   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I'm seeing an entirely different interpretation of that, which I'm not sure is intentional or not, but none the less hilarious...
Same here.... o.O
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Old 2010-12-29, 01:31   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Yeah, I'd be careful about using TVtropes as an authority for terms like these, their definition of tsundere is actually pretty well done, but some others aren't - their page on moe, for example, pretty much perpetuates every stereotype about the concept that I dispute.

(I like to run definitions and explanations of moe through what I call the "Matsuri test". Basically, I ask myself whether Sola's Matsuri Shihou meets the bulk of the description. Passing this test if not very common despite the fact that Matsuri is often considered very moe.)

I like the fact that they discuss the different kinds of "tsun" and "dere" a character may exhibit. I also like the fact they note that characters often transition from type A to type B when they become more comfortable with their love interest. There are, however, a few flaws:
-The implication that a defrosting ice queen is not a tsundere. I'm not aware of any precedent for this.
-It implies that its moe for a tsundere to blush and make suspiciously specific denials... and then links TV tropes definition of moe. The reason this kind of behaviour from a tsundere is moe is because it evokes a warm "awww, she really cares (even though she's denying it)" in the viewer, rather than most of the stuff mentioned in that article. Granted, this is a problem with the moe article more than the tsundere one.

I also think that the article misses a couple interesting things about tsunderes, like the fact that if a type A tsundere is the lead girl in a romantic comedy, she'll usually have girl without a tsun side (possibly a yamato nadeshiko) as a rival specifically to highlight her personality. But those aren't really necessary to a basic definition, just interesting observations.
Actually Tsundere is listed on the Ice Queen page as a subtype. The thing is that the original use of the term tsundere was to mean "Defrosting Ice Queen" and that isn't really what it means anymore.

So we kind of have to acknowledge it.
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Old 2010-12-29, 01:37   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I hate to say this because you're arguing pretty well, but I'm still not convinced.

TV tropes describes the word "tsundere" as a merger of "aloof or irritable" and lovestruck. Kuudere, on the other hand, is a merger of cool and lovestruck. Not cold, just cool.

Does Sakaki have a "cold" exterior? No, people just assign her a "cool" image. Same with Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. (Although in that case, the image is only part cool - it's also "scary loner girl".)

And the idea that "kuu" means "cool" isn't just something I came up with: take a look at how this poster defines the difference between "kuudere" and the little used term "dandere", for instance. The "cool" factor is front and center:
http://bangin.wordpress.com/2008/04/...%83%ACdandere/

I consider any behaviour that could qualify as "abrasive" tsun, so to me intentionally acting cold to someone is a kind of tsun, and characters that do this are better described as a tsundere or tsundere-kuudere hybrid, not pure kuudere.

The defrosting ice queen/tsundere distinction you make is useful, the issue is that defrosting ice queen is a TVtropes term, not anime fan slang. Many anime fans would use tsundere simply because they don't know or don't care about the other term.
I might point out that the "kuu" in "kuudere" doesn't translate as "cool".

It is "cool"

As in "cool-dere", then put into romanji "kuu"-dere.

Also "defrosting ice queen" was a term used long before there was a TV Tropes. Probably long before there was an internet for that matter.
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Old 2010-12-29, 03:47   Link #115
Vexx
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In the original Star Trek pilot episode in 1967, the term "walking freezer unit" was used to define a lady who later got quite hot-blooded. Yeah, the term "ice queen" and thawing/defrosting is quite old. There's a fair connection between that and several types of tsundere.
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Old 2010-12-29, 03:50   Link #116
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Of course it exists, people just don't typically respond well to it.
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Old 2011-01-15, 22:07   Link #117
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I wish there more "dere-dere" in the future -.-"
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Old 2011-06-22, 21:35   Link #118
Vexx
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I thought about starting a new thread... but this will suffice. I have a relationship with a real life small loli-ish tsundere. She's uttered every one of these lines to me, several too many times to count:

Quote:
Number 1: “hima datta kara!”
The girl calls you up saying, “I had nothing else to do!”

Number 2: “tekitou ni oitoite yo”
Presented with a gift, the girl says, “Just leave it somewhere” and receives the gift haphazardly, but her face looks very happy.

Number 3: “hontou wa jibun de dekirun dakedo”
The girl asks for your help but stresses, “I could’ve done it myself.”

Number 4: “darashiganai otoko dane! “
The girl complains, “You are such a slob!” but still helps you out.

Number 5: “bakka jyanai no!”
“Are you stupid?” The girl curses at you but still accepts you for who you are.

Number 6: “anta, douse hima desho!”
The girl says, “You are free anyway, right?” and asks you out on a date.

Number 7: “arigataku omoinasai yo!”
The girl hands you a present and says, “You had better be grateful” while avoiding your glance.

Number 8: “tsuide ni tsukutta dake dayo!”
The girl prepares a bento filled with love for you, but says, “I just happened to make some extra!”

ξ゚⊿゚)ξ (emoticon for twin-tail tsundere)
Nonetheless, we've been married now for, um... 32 years this summer, clouds of lightning and skulls and all.
(1. sticking her tongue out, 2. cursing at her laptop)

Granted, most of the forum is pretty young... but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who is also attached to such a person.
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Old 2011-06-24, 11:00   Link #119
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vexx
Granted, most of the forum is pretty young... but I'm interested in hearing from anyone who is also attached to such a person.
Although I'm a bit younger than you, I'm definitely older than most on this board.

My wife has said and done things fairly similar to what yours has. She's Chinese, born and raised in China, left home to go to school in Japan when she was 16, graduated college and went to work in Los Angeles where I met her. She can be lovey-dovey one minute, and be psycho-crazy the next. Sure that could be the description of almost any woman, (and probably some guys I know too) but honestly I've never met anyone like her.

She stands her ground and doesn't take guff from anyone. I don't have a lot of time right now but remind me to tell the story of when she was in her mid-30s, she punched a 60-year old+ lady in the face for cutting in line.

So while she isn't really a true tsundere, she's definitely very interesting to be around.
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Old 2011-08-11, 07:30   Link #120
Masuzu
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Well, I held off on this thread back when I first saw it,
Thread Necromancy no Jutsu has been initiated due to well,

having encountered one for real.

Now, at first I thought she was really weird for always talking to me in a bitchy way
then sometimes she'd be oddly nice.
Now, I suspected she was into me, but didn't pay much attention to it.

Needless to say, it didn't take long for me to think that maybe she really was a tsundere.

This thought, ofcourse, gave me mixed feelings to say the least.
She eventually confessed, thus proving my suspicions, not that I was too surprised.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how obvious it should have been,

the violent tendencies (she would often kick me),
that embarrassed face when you praise her despite her verbal venom,
any troper would've taken that as proof right then and there.

I suppose it's just one of those things.

Needless to say, tsunderes are a lot of fun, maybe moreso if you can figure it out sooner.

I wish I did.
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