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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 231 64.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 92 25.63%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.95%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.84%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.28%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
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Old 2010-12-28, 10:27   Link #521
TonyTheme
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As an intellectual exercise, I tried to place myself in Haruhi's shoes when it came to the filming of her movie during Sigh. Now, while her treatment of Mikuru in the one (in)famous scene is genuinely deplorable, the lead-up to it really isn't as bad as Kyon made it out to be.
Blame KyoAni, Haruhi was supposed to be viciously hitting Mikuru over the head with her hand and actually gave her tequila.
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Old 2010-12-28, 21:18   Link #522
PzIVf3
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The Time loop travel discussion made my head hurt. After Kyon was stabbed then suddenly another Kyon it would be appear to be a younger version. How many now Kyon out there? Can anyone explain specifically my head hurts.
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Old 2010-12-28, 23:46   Link #523
revive4563
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Can plural same person exist in the same time axis?
What happens if you change the fact in the former time axis?

After all, nobody knows what happens.
IMO I think that in case those contradiction caused by time travel, the world branches off as the different world in fact.
In a word, I think the world is the parallel world originally. But I can't confirm of course.
Possibly, in the final analysis the time travel itself is a contradiction. I think this kind of dispute is senseless. You know, main plot of most of time travel movies are not SF just like this.
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Old 2010-12-29, 03:32   Link #524
Akka
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Originally Posted by TonyTheme View Post
Blame KyoAni, Haruhi was supposed to be viciously hitting Mikuru over the head with her hand and actually gave her tequila.
Meh, she was already deserving a hard beating for what she did in the anime, so I don't think the supposed toning-down of the anime was really significant in any way ; the point was still the same.
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Old 2010-12-29, 05:01   Link #525
quigonkenny
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My thoughts on a couple questions raised over the last few pages (I've got more, but these relate directly to the movie).

1) Why does the IDSE study Haruhi, if they can just control her power? A gross oversimplification of the situation, the kind which someone who revels in poking holes in everything Haruhi would naturally want to steer towards. If we had anyone like that here. Truth is, contrary to apparent popular thought, "scientific method" doesn't involve suborning control of a phenomenon and spamming the "on" button until you think you've figured said phenomenon out. This universe is filled with systems whose processes are affected by just observing them. Pretty much every system is affected wildly if the observer becomes directly involved. Avoiding as many outside contaminants as possible is a cornerstone of scientific method, as the IDSE seems to understand.

Sure, Yuki being able to effect a change by a method that involved Haruhi's power seems as first glance to imply that the IDSE (or at least its data/human hybrid interfaces) can "harness" Haruhi's power, but look closer. We have to remember that a fair bit of that power was already within Yuki's abilities (memory change, data manipulation, Asakura's resurrection, the entire Escape Program including the time travel, easily borrowed from Mikuru of the upper levels of the IDSE), so the line where Yuki's power ended and Haruhi's began is fuzzy at best, not to mention that the method by which Yuki enabled this use of power is pretty much unknown. Did she just yank out Haruhi's power and use it at whim? Or did she merely implant a complex, unavoidable suggestion in Haruhi's subconscious, and exercised no real control? Or is it somewhere in the middle, and the slapdash execution is due to her "control" being based upon a preliminary theory of how Haruhi's powers can be manipulated, which is likewise based upon her incomplete observation?

Put simply, observing Haruhi without interference might eventually tell you how her powers work, and when you're an omnipotent data race that lives outside of linear time, you do literally have all the time in the world to make that "might" a reality. Going in and stealing, then using those powers without a complete understanding to begin with will only ever tell you what happens when you use them incompletely. The IDSE is not going to suddenly figure out her powers after a using a flawed copy for a certain number of iterations. If they had that ability, they would have evolved past that level already.

2) Why is Mikuru afraid of Yuki? Perspective, from a couple of aspects. First and most obviously, Mikuru has to understand that as a time traveler from the future, in the pliant causality that surrounds the SOS Dan, her very existence, and that of her future comrades, can be ended by the slightest change to history. Itsuki is predictable, Kyon appears to be a magnet for "predetermined events" fortuitous to her existence, and Haruhi can't be helped. Yuki, however, has already acted unpredictably on her own in a way that jeopardized her future's existence, and who's to say that Asakura's faction might one day rise to power within the IDSE and give Yuki orders that will take history right off track?

Second, as someone from the future, she herself is bound to have access to "sufficiently advanced technology" that should make Kyon and Itsuki wary around her if they knew about it. But by comparison, Yuki makes her look like a Neanderthal wielding a sharp rock. Mikuru has a much better idea just what "nigh-omnipotent" actually can mean than Kyon or Itsuki, and just how bad that can be if turned awry.
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Old 2010-12-29, 05:08   Link #526
Blaat
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
The Time loop travel discussion made my head hurt. After Kyon was stabbed then suddenly another Kyon it would be appear to be a younger version. How many now Kyon out there? Can anyone explain specifically my head hurts.
Kyon that rescued stabbed-Kyon is from the future not the past. So in an upcoming series you'll see a story where Kyon travels back in time to save himself.
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Old 2010-12-29, 05:42   Link #527
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
We have to remember that a fair bit of that power was already within Yuki's abilities (memory change, data manipulation, Asakura's resurrection, the entire Escape Program including the time travel, easily borrowed from Mikuru of the upper levels of the IDSE), so the line where Yuki's power ended and Haruhi's began is fuzzy at best, not to mention that the method by which Yuki enabled this use of power is pretty much unknown.
As I understand it, there were only two things out of Yuki's alterations that clearly exceeded Data Entity abilities--sealing off Haruhi's power so that she would not interfere, and sealing off or nullifying the IDSE so that it would not interfere. Altering the town and the people in it was the easy part. Blocking off those beings ordinarily more powerful than Yuki herself from interfering and/or undoing it was the hard part.
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Old 2010-12-29, 09:26   Link #528
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Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
Kyon that rescued stabbed-Kyon is from the future not the past. So in an upcoming series you'll see a story where Kyon travels back in time to save himself.
They also kind of told you that in the narration at the end of the movie. Plus, you could see him practicing his lines to himself on the rooftop.
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Old 2010-12-30, 00:18   Link #529
miroku2192
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I'm just confused. If Kyon ends up talking to Yuki, and saving himself, and choosing that decision, then why the hell did he end up in the first place having to wait 2 days before confronting Yuki again if he already confronted Yuki the night of the change in the first place?

My head hurts
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Old 2010-12-30, 01:46   Link #530
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Originally Posted by Blaat View Post
Kyon that rescued stabbed-Kyon is from the future not the past. So in an upcoming series you'll see a story where Kyon travels back in time to save himself.
The problem is a future version of Kyon wouldn't be able to save stabbed Kyon as future Kyon won't exist unless stabbed Kyon survives. There's no way in hell for future Kyon to go back in time in the first place unless stabbed Kyon survives without future Kyon interfering with the past.

Kyon also says that it feels as if he's seen this before, which implies that he is actually saved by a Kyon from the past. It would be fully possible for a time-traveler to experience Kyon's death, go back in time, grab the Kyon from that time frame and have him save stabbed Kyon. This would also implant some kind of memory of the fact this happened in the stabbed Kyon's head as it's experienced right that moment but by a past version of himself. Problem is the Kyon that picks up the gun says that it hurt for him as well which once again implies that he's from the future which would be completely impossible as any future version of himself would only be able to exist if the stabbed Kyon managed to survive without relying on this future version of himself. Paradox. I sure hope that I'm missing something here (and given how little I remember from the TV series I'm sure I am).
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Old 2010-12-30, 04:53   Link #531
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Hm.... that means a past Kyon will need to have saved stabbed Kyon in the first iteration of events then, in order to ensure that a future Kyon will be able to exist in the first place. Once the existence of a future Kyon has been established, i guess future Kyon can continue saving stabbed Kyon from there on out, taking the duty away from past Kyon's hands?
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Old 2010-12-30, 07:04   Link #532
Blaat
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Originally Posted by Meatrose View Post
The problem is a future version of Kyon wouldn't be able to save stabbed Kyon as future Kyon won't exist unless stabbed Kyon survives. There's no way in hell for future Kyon to go back in time in the first place unless stabbed Kyon survives without future Kyon interfering with the past.
The series has consistently used predestination paradox concept, and this one is no exception to the rule.
Mind you, normally predestination paradox are told from the time traveller's perspective (in this case that's future-Kyon saving stabbed-Kyon) which I think is the cause of so much confusion.

...
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-12-30 at 22:42. Reason: If it's not mentioned in the movie itself, you can't mention it here. I suggerst pointing people to the novel & manga thread.
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Old 2010-12-30, 09:10   Link #533
PzIVf3
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post

2) Why is Mikuru afraid of Yuki?
She looks uncomfortable to confront her so that means its highly possible she wants to killed Nagato.
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Old 2010-12-30, 09:23   Link #534
quigonkenny
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She looks uncomfortable to confront her so that means its highly possible she wants to killed Nagato.
No, she looks afraid of Yuki, not just uncomfortable around her. That is clear in both the manga and the anime. And Mikuru's afraid of pretty much everybody and everything; there's no way she'd want to kill anybody. Primarily because it would probably nullify her existence.
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Old 2010-12-30, 11:02   Link #535
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Meatrose View Post
The problem is a future version of Kyon wouldn't be able to save stabbed Kyon as future Kyon won't exist unless stabbed Kyon survives. There's no way in hell for future Kyon to go back in time in the first place unless stabbed Kyon survives without future Kyon interfering with the past.\
I highlighted the key words here: "in the first place".

Why do you think Kyon needs to go back in time BEFORE he was stabbed?

That sentence makes no sense! You only need cause to happen before the effect, if you don't have time travel.

Let me explain it this way.

A Time traveller was born in 3000AD. He went into a time machine and appeared in 1000AD. There, he was killed and died.

But how could he have died? He wasn't born yet in 1000AD! How could someone die, if they weren't born "in the first place"?

And here lies your logic flaw. That something has to happen in a fixed order. If you have a time machine, you can die at a time before you are born. The argument that "Kyon can't save himself" is the same one as "You can't die before you are born". And the argument boils down to "it is not possible unless you have a time machine".

Thus, if you HAVE a time machine, you can save your younger self from death if that was factored in the time loop. "When" something happened, does not matter, when you can manipulate time itself.

Without a time machine, we are trapped in the timestream like a quadriplegic is trapped on his bed. Someone who can walk, would have no problem walking out of the hospital. But for a quadriplegic the exit of the hospital might as well be in another galaxy. If you have the right tools, you can manipulate time. That's all.
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Old 2010-12-30, 18:12   Link #536
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So that mean the younger Mikuru and the younger Kyon version saved him not the future Kyon.
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Old 2010-12-30, 20:37   Link #537
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Well I waited to watch this, and I'm glad I did. It needed the quality to be appreciated.

And for the Asakura stab scene.

Holy ^#$&%*#$!

%*^%, @#$^! and #!@$@#@% for good measure.

Yuki's face.

Kyon's face.

Just...

I'm speechless.

She truly is the epic villain of the Haruhi universe.

This was extremely well done.

On, and for those complaining about future Kyon saving past Kyon being a paradox, it actually is not, because he had already done it.

You are falling into linear time thinking. This is because time is linear in reality (for humans anyway). If however, if time is no longer linear, then there is no paradox in a future self acting in the past, thus creating the possibility for the future self to exist.

In fact God claims to Moses that He is this very type of being. "I am that I am", or in other words "I am the self-existent one", or "I exist because I exist".

Wow... I just had a semi-blasphemous thought. Does creating the conditions for his own future existence make Kyon a "Self-Existent One"?
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Old 2010-12-30, 21:02   Link #538
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
So that mean the younger Mikuru and the younger Kyon version saved him not the future Kyon.
Nope. The idea here is that being younger or older does not matter, when you have a time machine. You can, for example, go a few hours into the future to eat your dinner, then go a few years back in time, get a job, get paid, put some money on the table, then go forward in time to COOK the dinner, then go back a day in time to buy the ingredients for the dinner using money left on the table, then you went a decade in the future...

Then, here's the kicker; you realised there was more money on the table than you originally had put there. So You get a job a decade in the future, earn the extra money, go back in time between the gap when you put money on the table and when you went shopping, and put in the remainder of the cash so timeline would be consistent.

When you have a time machine, it no longer matter WHEN something happened. It just had to happen, but in any order you wish.
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Old 2010-12-31, 04:29   Link #539
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On, and for those complaining about future Kyon saving past Kyon being a paradox, it actually is not, because he had already done it.

You are falling into linear time thinking. This is because time is linear in reality (for humans anyway). If however, if time is no longer linear, then there is no paradox in a future self acting in the past, thus creating the possibility for the future self to exist.
Oh boy. This is starting again, and the last time it came up, no one had a decent response to the point I made (you can see the discussion in "The General Discussion of Haruhi Suzumiya" subforum. But, to save you the trip there, here's the gist of what I was saying.

Mikuru says that there's no continuity between time planes, and I'm sure this is where you're getting your "time isn't linear" notion. The problem is that this is simply ridiculous to say. First of all, time travel would NOT be a simple insertion into a particular time plane, but rather the start of a series of insertions into the destination time plane and all those following it. If Mikuru thinks of herself as an extra drawing in a flipbook, that drawing would need to be made on every subsequent page as well. That has some serious implications for the power and scope of a TPDD.

Adding to that, if time truly isn't continuous or linear, then EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of time travel in the Haruhi series SHOULD be utterly futile. Kyon goes back in time and inspires young Haruhi to go to North High? So what? Time isn't linear, right? Those changes don't carry through. In fact, Mikuru herself says, "Even if I attempted to change history in this age it would not affect the future, because there is no continuity between time frames. Everything would stay in this temporal plane."

So yeah. If that's true, Kyon shouldn't have been able to do all the things he did in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody and Disappearance. If it's false, then there IS continuity, and time is linear after all (meaning that once again, Kyon shouldn't have been able to do much of what he did). Someone tried to explain it by saying that Haruhi breaks time travel, but that can't be the case. Time travel only exists BECAUSE Haruhi wants it to. They follow the rules that she sets up. Besides, she's not even tangentially related to any of the time traveling that goes on, so it's not like she breaks it in specific instances. So far, the only influence Haruhi has exerted on time travel (besides its inception) is that she sets the boundaries on when time be traveled (only after three years ago, or, in the case of E8, only within that two week span).

Furthermore, unless somebody knows something to the contrary, the time travelers have only ever been shown to go back in time to set events in motion as they remember them. In other words, their WHOLE POINT is to do the one thing that Mikuru says can't be done. Now, don't misunderstand me here; I'm not blindly trusting in Mikuru's explanation. It just seems that if she's wrong (and time IS linear), much bigger problems arise (paradoxes, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
In fact God claims to Moses that He is this very type of being. "I am that I am", or in other words "I am the self-existent one", or "I exist because I exist".

Wow... I just had a semi-blasphemous thought. Does creating the conditions for his own future existence make Kyon a "Self-Existent One"?
There are some pretty substantial differences between God and Kyon, but for the sake of brevity, I'll only deal with the most relevant one. Kyon exists in multiple instances in a single time plane because he keeps getting inserted into it from different time planes. God doesn't "travel" through time at all; he exists completely outside of and apart from it. To him, the past, present, and future are all occurring at the same time.

Also, "I exist because I exist" is distinct from "At some point in time, I performed an action that resulted in my current existence." Heck, everyone does the second one whenever they eat, breathe, or do some other self-sustaining action. "I exist because I exist," simply means, "The point of my existence is the existence itself." Kyon, on the other hand, fulfills the alternate interpretation of, "My current existence would not be possible if not for another existence of mine." That's a very different concept from self-existence.
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Old 2010-12-31, 05:47   Link #540
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Very interesting views there Vallen Chaos Valiant, to think that you are moving on a timeplane that has been estabilished until the end of time which would allow for fluent movement back and forth in time is somewhat daunting.

In fact apon further reflection of this anime, that may very well be the theory they used, and it certainly makes understanding time travel much easier not to mention it makes understanding this anime much easier.

Everything you think, say, and do is determined before you are even born. And even if you travel through time, no matter what you do, it was already taken into account in the future.

Ofcourse because this theory is very depressing when put into our reality i choose reject it, i prefer to travel back in time to the known, and travel forward in time into the completely unknown.

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