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Old 2010-12-28, 00:25   Link #121
kaizerknight01
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Meet the navy's version

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Old 2010-12-28, 00:38   Link #122
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by kaizerknight01 View Post
Meet the navy's version

that thing literally 'shoots' any incoming missile, am i correct? i think this thing is part of the system like the Phalanx CIWS...

oh Beretta doesnt make the 93R anymore?

oh 4 the M1911 fans, what do ya think of the notable clones of Kimber Custom and AMT (thank God for the AMT1911 4 christmas)?
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Old 2010-12-28, 02:53   Link #123
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
that thing literally 'shoots' any incoming missile, am i correct? i think this thing is part of the system like the Phalanx CIWS...
The Mk15 Phalanx CIWS (the US Navy affectionately calls them the "R2D2s" due to the trademark radar antenna housing ) and the Goalkeeper are tasked with the interception of incoming missiles and low-flying aircrafts, yes, but they're very slowly being replaced by the Rolling Airframe Missile (RIM-116 RAM). While the system itself is proven, there are some concerns that the barrel group can be short-lived due to the very high rate of fire (a problem common to all Gatling cannons, I'm afraid, and perhaps overblown).

It should be noted that the US Army created a land-based variant of the Phalanx for defensive use in Iraq, to intercept mortars shells and artillery rockets bearing down on American bases.



Quote:
oh Beretta doesnt make the 93R anymore?
Shooters probably don't feel the need to own one unless they're looking for thrills. Otherwise, a simple MP5 or a smaller-caliber MP7 can provide equal firepower with perhaps greater accuracy.

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oh 4 the M1911 fans, what do ya think of the notable clones of Kimber Custom and AMT (thank God for the AMT1911 4 christmas)?
AMT was known for having quality issues - especially galling of the stainless steel...all those woes eventually drove the company bankrupt. They did however make quite eye-catching models, what with the Hardballer and those ridiculously long-barreled AutoMags.

As for Kimber pistols, while not having fired any of them, I've heard quite a lot of good things about them - one of their models, the Aegis, event went to win a yearly excellence award, which is quite a reward. Kimber is incidentally the designer of the USMC's MEU(SOC) pistol and its follow-on, the ICQB. From what I know both the armed forces and some police departments are quite content with Kimber pistols - the .45ACP has just not lost its popularity and I think the hype will live on for a bit longer.
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Old 2010-12-28, 06:21   Link #124
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Who dosent love the A-10 Thunderbolt 2?! That thing is wicked! It's 30mm right?
Gotta be how disinterested the cowboy sounds.
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Old 2010-12-28, 10:12   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
The Mk15 Phalanx CIWS (the US Navy affectionately calls them the "R2D2s" due to the trademark radar antenna housing ) and the Goalkeeper are tasked with the interception of incoming missiles and low-flying aircrafts, yes, but they're very slowly being replaced by the Rolling Airframe Missile (RIM-116 RAM). While the system itself is proven, there are some concerns that the barrel group can be short-lived due to the very high rate of fire (a problem common to all Gatling cannons, I'm afraid, and perhaps overblown).

It should be noted that the US Army created a land-based variant of the Phalanx for defensive use in Iraq, to intercept mortars shells and artillery rockets bearing down on American bases.





Shooters probably don't feel the need to own one unless they're looking for thrills. Otherwise, a simple MP5 or a smaller-caliber MP7 can provide equal firepower with perhaps greater accuracy.



AMT was known for having quality issues - especially galling of the stainless steel...all those woes eventually drove the company bankrupt. They did however make quite eye-catching models, what with the Hardballer and those ridiculously long-barreled AutoMags.

As for Kimber pistols, while not having fired any of them, I've heard quite a lot of good things about them - one of their models, the Aegis, event went to win a yearly excellence award, which is quite a reward. Kimber is incidentally the designer of the USMC's MEU(SOC) pistol and its follow-on, the ICQB. From what I know both the armed forces and some police departments are quite content with Kimber pistols - the .45ACP has just not lost its popularity and I think the hype will live on for a bit longer.
a high caliber minigun guns down a Scud missile? thats new? oh what about that point defense laser project? is it still ongoing like the railgun tech research?

for the AMT, my uncle has the normal hardballer and when i had my way with 7 magazines with it, it started to not like me anymore...

screw those who dun like .45ACP! classic is still the best, although the original M1911 was said to be heavier due to its steel frame. as of right now, inside my closet, theres a silver custom II in a square case, tho i kinda dunno on how the hell did he manage to send it here in teh phils.

oh what about the SA-80? they say its freakin' heavy assault rifle despite its small size but when i faced it, it wasnt that bad....
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Old 2010-12-28, 12:58   Link #126
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
a high caliber minigun guns down a Scud missile?
Did I say it was used to shoot down tactical missiles?

I said it frequently has to face threats like 60mm mortar shells (fired by M224 equivalents) and rockets like Katyushas or homemade models (the kind insurgents use to bombard US bases in Iraq). Scuds most likely have a trajectory that is too highly parabolic and a terminal speed that's too high to be handled by the CIWS (on ships it's no problem since you have to assume the missile is coming straight at you and not at a target that might be several hundred feet away) - Scuds are usually handled by Patriots and the Navy's Standards.

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oh what about that point defense laser project? is it still ongoing like the railgun tech research?
The THEL is still being refined, though they're almost ready to introduce it to the Army - there already existed a version called MTHEL (Humvee-borne, if I'm not mistaken) but they seem to have relocated the system on top of a specially-outfitted Oshkosh HEMTT truck instead, probably to accommodate the power source.

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thats new?
Not really; Shilkas and M163 VADS preceded the Counter-RAM but this one is technically fully automated and it's becoming very popular and in high demand (by Israel, most notably).

Not too long ago, the US Navy shot down a couple drones with their ship-borne version of the THEL but last I had heard they were facing concerns about the optics getting severely damaged by saltwater and possible performance degradation in low-visibility scenarios. Not to mention that the system has yet to fully tackle, head-on, the full threat envelope that the US Navy is likely to face in a modern battlefield (high-speed antiship missiles like the Dong Feng DF-21, low-flying, supersonic planes, et cetera).

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oh what about the SA-80? they say its freakin' heavy assault rifle despite its small size but when i faced it, it wasnt that bad....
The British Army appears to be quite content with it despite a quite large number of teething problems (the ammo mags kept dropping out their wells, most notably) that were more or less ironed out by Heckler & Koch (who were specially appointed to address the issues when the company was bought by the British...shortly before the Germans did their damnedest to buy it back) but according to materiel satisfaction questionnaires handed out to soldiers after Operation Iraqi Freedom, it appears the SA80 performed quite well despite earlier fears.

Actually, during OIF most weapons performed okay - but even the renowned AK would be hard-pressed to perform flawlessly in the sudden sandstorms the troops often encountered while moving towards Baghdad (rifles and machine guns would often jam after one burst due to the talcum-fine dust/sand that litterally enters everything it can get into).
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Old 2010-12-28, 13:10   Link #127
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
that thing literally 'shoots' any incoming missile, am i correct? i think this thing is part of the system like the Phalanx CIWS...

oh Beretta doesnt make the 93R anymore?

oh 4 the M1911 fans, what do ya think of the notable clones of Kimber Custom and AMT (thank God for the AMT1911 4 christmas)?
In regards to the loss of the Beretta 93R, it doesn't suprise me what with all the interest in small caliber, high velocity bullets like the FN 5.7 or HKs 4.6. It's the current fad and it sells guns. Wether or not they actually work remains to be seen.
As too the 1911s you mention; Renegade334 was on the nose about the AMT. But you must remember that most of the stainless steel galling was back in the early days (late 60s, early 70s) when machining said metal was in it's infancy! Nowadays it's just not a problem and later production AMTs worked quite well.
Kimber made quite a name for themselves when they announced that they would be offering a custom .45 at entry level prices! Well the thing has garnered high praise from both civilian and police alike and when I attended Gunsite a few years ago they were there in the hands of fellow students, and the damned things worked! Beside the Marine MEU-SOC issue it also is standard with the LAPD SWAT too.
As for the "hype" about the .45, I think it's rather funny considering that quite a few law enforcement agencies have begun to issue the old bullet! Despite the leaps and bounds that the 9mm or .40 have made. Hype sir? Actually I think it just proves that sometimes you can't change what really works! And yes I carry a .45 (Colt 1911A1) and it's on my CCW permit as one of 2 firearms I carry.
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Old 2010-12-28, 13:17   Link #128
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Well, one thing that makes police officers and soldiers go back to the M1911 is the fact that the .45ACP caliber is judged to be more effective than anything else, with a good balance between recoil, accuracy and stopping power. It's heavy and fast enough to knock down any target - with the help of a hollow-tip or not. The M1911 is also "thin" enough for concealed carry, whereas double-stack magazines create more noticeable bulges (I dunno about the Para-Ordnance P14-45, though) that are not always appreciated by plainclothes agents.

I believe .45ACP is also the caliber that can trigger hydrostatic shock the best, which is no small advantage when you are in the field and want a target to go down, either right upon impact...or later.
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Old 2010-12-28, 14:07   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
Well, one thing that makes police officers and soldiers go back to the M1911 is the fact that the .45ACP caliber is judged to be more effective than anything else, with a good balance between recoil, accuracy and stopping power. It's heavy and fast enough to knock down any target - with the help of a hollow-tip or not. The M1911 is also "thin" enough for concealed carry, whereas double-stack magazines create more noticeable bulges (I dunno about the Para-Ordnance P14-45, though) that are not always appreciated by plainclothes agents.

I believe .45ACP is also the caliber that can trigger hydrostatic shock the best, which is no small advantage when you are in the field and want a target to go down, either right upon impact...or later.
im not that heavy, but i think its due to its weight and some measurements that can make it hurt big time. i never really tried shooting it on any soft target (pig meat and ballistic gel) but its really a very reliable round, especially in self defense. only thing that is lulzing me with it is the excessive penetration it can probably cause.
used a normal M1911 and a UMP against wood and cinder block... and GEH... now i know why police forces use 9mm...

the magazine drop on the SA80... i experienced that... my very first facepalm involving an assault rifle.. NEVER AGAIN... ya hear me?! NEVER!!!!!

the original CZ75 really doesnt meet my specs. the compact is more of my style... what you guys think of it?

ah yes, the patriot missile... that thing isnt called Patriot for nothing...

oh btw can the CIWS take on an MIRV anti-ship missile? (i dunno if its really true as anti-ship missiles i know of are just cruise missiles and fighter jet based munitions like the harpoon missile)
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Old 2010-12-28, 14:33   Link #130
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oh btw can the CIWS take on an MIRV anti-ship missile? (i dunno if its really true as anti-ship missiles i know of are just cruise missiles and fighter jet based munitions like the harpoon missile)
MIRV stands for Multiple Independently-targeted Re-entry Vehicle. In other words, it's a missile-launched warhead that follows a high parabolic trajectory to hit strategic targets.

I've never heard of ICBMs and SLBMs carrying antiship missiles as MIRVs (MIRVs do not have rocket engine - though they can more or less redirect their trajectory during reentry to confuse enemy antimissile systems like the Patriot or the high-hitting GBI) - it'd be a very odd (and prohibitively expensive) way to deliver tactical weapons. I mean, what's the point in strapping a Harpoon or an Exocet to a Minuteman or a Trident D5?

I should nevertheless concede that the US Navy and DARPA are currently considering a project called ArcLight, which basically is a strange marriage between a MIRV-equivalent and a cruise missile; they plan to use a derivative of the Standard SM-3 and refit it with a detachable, supersonic, 200-300lbs explosive warhead/glider. If the program is not trashcanned like so many others, it could boast a 2,300 miles range capability, be launchable from either ship, submarine or bomber and offer a viable replacement for the Tomahawk (though I wonder whether the 200-300lbs warhead would be enough to replace the Tomahawk's 1,000lbs of PBXN-107).

And as for the earlier question, technically the CIWS can tackle the problem - they're programmed to face threats like the Dong Feng DF-21, the Exocet or the Sunburn, though the appearance of super/hypersonic missiles like the BrahMos could force the US Navy to prefer the SeaRAM, which is nothing more than a Phalanx CIWS that had its Vulcan cannon swapped with a RIM-116 RAM missile box.


P.S. Maybe we (starting with me, my bad) should cut a bit on the military talk - this topic is supposed to revolve around guns, after all...
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Old 2010-12-28, 15:22   Link #131
GN0010 Nosferatu
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Who dosent love the A-10 Thunderbolt 2?! That thing is wicked! It's 30mm right?
If I remember correctly, that's what is in a Gundam's head.
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Old 2010-12-28, 17:05   Link #132
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If I remember correctly, that's what is in a Gundam's head.
In my old "Jouney to Jurabo" PS2 games manual it says the Gundams head mounted Vulcan cannons are of the 20mm variety. That doesn't mean that the Coordinators didn't upgrade it later.
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:21   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
MIRV stands for Multiple Independently-targeted Re-entry Vehicle. In other words, it's a missile-launched warhead that follows a high parabolic trajectory to hit strategic targets.

I've never heard of ICBMs and SLBMs carrying antiship missiles as MIRVs (MIRVs do not have rocket engine - though they can more or less redirect their trajectory during reentry to confuse enemy antimissile systems like the Patriot or the high-hitting GBI) - it'd be a very odd (and prohibitively expensive) way to deliver tactical weapons. I mean, what's the point in strapping a Harpoon or an Exocet to a Minuteman or a Trident D5?

I should nevertheless concede that the US Navy and DARPA are currently considering a project called ArcLight, which basically is a strange marriage between a MIRV-equivalent and a cruise missile; they plan to use a derivative of the Standard SM-3 and refit it with a detachable, supersonic, 200-300lbs explosive warhead/glider. If the program is not trashcanned like so many others, it could boast a 2,300 miles range capability, be launchable from either ship, submarine or bomber and offer a viable replacement for the Tomahawk (though I wonder whether the 200-300lbs warhead would be enough to replace the Tomahawk's 1,000lbs of PBXN-107).

And as for the earlier question, technically the CIWS can tackle the problem - they're programmed to face threats like the Dong Feng DF-21, the Exocet or the Sunburn, though the appearance of super/hypersonic missiles like the BrahMos could force the US Navy to prefer the SeaRAM, which is nothing more than a Phalanx CIWS that had its Vulcan cannon swapped with a RIM-116 RAM missile box.


P.S. Maybe we (starting with me, my bad) should cut a bit on the military talk - this topic is supposed to revolve around guns, after all...
well as long as its weaponry tho.... lulz... btw renegade, ya served in the military?

i mean that once the missile fires, and at a few distances, the warhead breaks open and launches several smaller warheads and those warheads head to the ship armed with CIWS... well if it can, cool... but i think it'd be damn expensive just to do that... im not sure if an anti ship missile that uses parabolic trajectory will effectively destroy the target tho...

guys... about the FAL... is it still a good weapon? faced it in full auto, and it really behaved like a bitch... no, more like a bitch that just wants to kill the person who murdered her father. five magazines were spent and i went back to the hotel with a very sore shoulder and arm... well its bitchiness is prolly better than M14...
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Old 2010-12-28, 22:35   Link #134
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From what I've read ZeKeR, the FAL and G-3 are still used in places like Africa and the middle east. Personally I would think that in an open area like the desert that a 7.62 rifle would be preferred for it's long reach!
And not all FALs are select fire. The British L1A1 for example was reconfigured to be only semi-auto (just like the later modified M-14s) due to controlability issues!
Now what's your opinion on the HK G-3? I don't think much was said about this rifle.
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Old 2010-12-29, 02:35   Link #135
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From what I've read ZeKeR, the FAL and G-3 are still used in places like Africa and the middle east. Personally I would think that in an open area like the desert that a 7.62 rifle would be preferred for it's long reach!
And not all FALs are select fire. The British L1A1 for example was reconfigured to be only semi-auto (just like the later modified M-14s) due to controlability issues!
Now what's your opinion on the HK G-3? I don't think much was said about this rifle.
i'd prefer the L1A1 over the original FAL. my shoulder is nao traumatized by it.

when i had a go with it, i kinda no like its RoF tho, but i can say i really is HP rifle. recoil is kinda acceptable. its also easier to pull the charging handle unlike the SA80 and the AK47.

this summer, im gonna have a go with the IMI Galil... wonder why they say its heavy....
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Old 2010-12-29, 03:36   Link #136
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well as long as its weaponry tho.... lulz... btw renegade, ya served in the military?
Nope, but my grandpa was a WWII POW and then went on to work in my country's national airline. So the house is kind of filled with aircraft memorabilia and models. You can say that I caught the military virus quite early in my youth. Never enlisted, though - body was never tough enough for that.

Quote:
i mean that once the missile fires, and at a few distances, the warhead breaks open and launches several smaller warheads and those warheads head to the ship armed with CIWS... well if it can, cool... but i think it'd be damn expensive just to do that... im not sure if an anti ship missile that uses parabolic trajectory will effectively destroy the target tho...
Ah, well, the term "MIRV" is used when the smaller warheads detach in space and then reenter the atmosphere to strike their target (and usually those are nuclear weapons, not HE heads)...and as far as I know there are no tactical antiship missiles that use this concept - they prefer the unitary, penetrative warhead to the multiple warhead concept. Much less expensive and probably more efficient since it guarantees at least ONE big hole in the target's hull - your "MIRV"-like idea would create a "trauma" effect all over the ship but it remains to be seen whether they can bring down the ship instead of just dealing massive, extensive damage (it should be noted that in the Falklands war, the HMS Sheffield was sunk by an Argentinian Exocet missile, but its warhead failed to detonate...however, the fuel it still contained caught fire after impact and spelled the ship's slow and painful doom). However, antiship missiles have proximity fuses and can self-detonate in the target's direct vicinity - causing the supersonic debris to intentionally act as shrapnel - which is the next best thing to your idea.

Quote:
guys... about the FAL... is it still a good weapon? faced it in full auto, and it really behaved like a bitch... no, more like a bitch that just wants to kill the person who murdered her father. five magazines were spent and i went back to the hotel with a very sore shoulder and arm... well its bitchiness is prolly better than M14...
Well, as far as I know, the FAL and its inability to fire full-auto with an acceptable heavy caliber and preserve accuracy was one of the main reasons why people created the .223 caliber (which was even smaller than the British's alternative design, to the point that they threatened to never adopt the American .223). But the FAL was certainly powerful and good enough to be used as a "freedom rifle" all around the world (especially in Africa), right next to the Kalashnikov and be awarded several production licenses. It just can't be used the same way people handle an AK47 or an AR15.

On a separate note, I don't see why some shooters nowadays want to use full-auto with 7.62 rifles, unless it's for kicks (pun intended), it's a actually lightweight machine gun, it has a particularly well-performing recoil mitigator system or boasts a low rate of fire (thus reducing the loss of control, like on the M60). It's a grievous waste of money IMHO and nowadays, all soldiers learn how to save ammo instead of spraying it all around.
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Old 2010-12-29, 04:06   Link #137
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Nope, but my grandpa was a WWII POW and then went on to work in my country's national airline. So the house is kind of filled with aircraft memorabilia and models. You can say that I caught the military virus quite early in my youth. Never enlisted, though - body was never tough enough for that.



Ah, well, the term "MIRV" is used when the smaller warheads detach in space and then reenter the atmosphere to strike their target (and usually those are nuclear weapons, not HE heads)...and as far as I know there are no tactical antiship missiles that use this concept - they prefer the unitary, penetrative warhead to the multiple warhead concept. Much less expensive and probably more efficient since it guarantees at least ONE big hole in the target's hull - your "MIRV"-like idea would create a "trauma" effect all over the ship but it remains to be seen whether they can bring down the ship instead of just dealing massive, extensive damage (it should be noted that in the Falklands war, the HMS Sheffield was sunk by an Argentinian Exocet missile, but its warhead failed to detonate...however, the fuel it still contained caught fire after impact and spelled the ship's slow and painful doom). However, antiship missiles have proximity fuses and can self-detonate in the target's direct vicinity - causing the supersonic debris to intentionally act as shrapnel - which is the next best thing to your idea.



Well, as far as I know, the FAL and its inability to fire full-auto with an acceptable heavy caliber and preserve accuracy was one of the main reasons why people created the .223 caliber (which was even smaller than the British's alternative design, to the point that they threatened to never adopt the American .223). But the FAL was certainly powerful and good enough to be used as a "freedom rifle" all around the world (especially in Africa), right next to the Kalashnikov and be awarded several production licenses. It just can't be used the same way people handle an AK47 or an AR15.

On a separate note, I don't see why some shooters nowadays want to use full-auto with 7.62 rifles, unless it's for kicks (pun intended), it's a actually lightweight machine gun, it has a particularly well-performing recoil mitigator system or boasts a low rate of fire (thus reducing the loss of control, like on the M60). It's a grievous waste of money IMHO and nowadays, all soldiers learn how to save ammo instead of spraying it all around.
hell even AR15's are single auto... you will probably be nailed to a cross for having a full auto civilian version.
well they say that its a challenge if you can tame full auto... high grade weapons that use the 7.62x51 NATO are SURE to be warshocked... hell try holding an M14 in full auto... and see... the glory of soreness in random fire... i'd take its M1A version any day... or the newest FN SCAR H...
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Old 2010-12-29, 04:21   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
From what I've read ZeKeR, the FAL and G-3 are still used in places like Africa and the middle east. Personally I would think that in an open area like the desert that a 7.62 rifle would be preferred for it's long reach!
And not all FALs are select fire. The British L1A1 for example was reconfigured to be only semi-auto (just like the later modified M-14s) due to controlability issues!
Now what's your opinion on the HK G-3? I don't think much was said about this rifle.
The G3 is still used by Norway although it will be phased out in the near future.

My father used to own a Lithgow L1A1 SLR before the Port Arthur massacre but was forced to hand it in after said incident.

Before I was old enough to appreciate firearms of course. Still got one of the magazines for it too.

As for thoughts on the G3, it's quite possibly my favourite firearm. Oh the things I'd do to own one in Australia...
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Old 2010-12-29, 10:25   Link #139
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^ From what I've read the G-3 is much more reliable than the FAL. And accuracy is about the same? I have stated it elsewhere that in a true SHTF situation that I prefer a .30 cal rifle! Be it 30/30 or 7.62x39 or 308. Those calibers just give you a lot more flexibility and range to work with.
As for 5.56/.223, mines for sale! Think I'll get me a nice SMLE in .303!
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Old 2010-12-29, 19:50   Link #140
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Originally Posted by Lost Cause View Post
^ From what I've read the G-3 is much more reliable than the FAL. And accuracy is about the same? I have stated it elsewhere that in a true SHTF situation that I prefer a .30 cal rifle! Be it 30/30 or 7.62x39 or 308. Those calibers just give you a lot more flexibility and range to work with.
As for 5.56/.223, mines for sale! Think I'll get me a nice SMLE in .303!
.303 British... how i love that round... one of the best in the war i can say... i faced it with Lee Enfield Mk. III and tried the mad minute... BUT failed as i only displaced 12 rounds in a 200m target (freakin hard to aim at the iron sights!)... seriously... the bolt mechanism was so smooth and soft.. this is what you get for firing a semi auto for too long...

G3 fires a bit slow for my taste... and i'd want to have a go at the Swiss SG552 for that...
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