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Old 2010-12-30, 09:41   Link #20601
Renall
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Yeah, but can you point to a single instance of George actually doing something damning, rather than something suspicious? Just about everything he does could be easily handwaved as misinterpretation or the reader being more suspicious than is actually merited.

Mind you, I think George is suspicious as all get-out, but Ryukishi just as easily could pull a fast one on us, as Judoh said, by entirely exonerating him. And it would work. It'd be cheap (what was all that sinister buildup?), but I couldn't call it implausible.
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Old 2010-12-30, 10:10   Link #20602
neutrino
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In response to the request for our theories, I developed a Grand Unified Theory before EP7 came out, based on the anime, TIPS, and what I'd seen of the games. It's in four parts: one, two, three, and four. My assumptions in part 1 were mostly contradicted by EP8, but it looks like I got ShKanontrice right.

Main points:
  • Yasu is a true multiple personality, with Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice, Gaap, Eva-Beatrice and a version of Kinzo at various times. When a personality like Kanon is declared dead by the red text, it means he's submerged completely, although revival is possible. The servants (except Gouda) are in on it with Yasu. They use scopolamine to make Yasu's impersonations realistic.
  • The entire meta-world is taking place in Ange's head. She's subconsciously trying to figure things out, based on the stories written and things she remembers from being in the Mariage Sorciere, overlaying RL events onto it. Meta-Battler is an image based on her brother, which is why he couldn't say he was Asumu's son. The answer to Beatrice's riddle is Ange, who will have to eventually destroy fragments like him.
  • Yasu's plan was to have the Ushiromiya family follow her, just like Lion was liked and respected by everyone. After capturing them and faking there deaths, she drugged them (like in the Serpent and the Rainbow) and has them living like zombies in Kuwadorian. Eva was left behind to keep Rokkenjima from being sold or developed. It was Genji or Yasu who killed Kasumi's men.
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Old 2010-12-30, 10:16   Link #20603
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
So I'm now putting down 20 virtual dollars that my initial theory more than a year ago, modified excessively, is correct, with barely 24 hours left before the truth sets us free.

Who else will put money on the virtual pot?

You need to refresh my memory.

Anyway I'll put any virtual money you want on the theory I had back after EP4 more than 1 year and a half ago: The Rokkenjima incident was caused by a volcano.
Although I can now be more precise and claim that it's a phreatic eruption.
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Old 2010-12-30, 10:18   Link #20604
witchfan
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@neutrino: I read your theory a few months ago. It was impressive in that it really was a "unifying theory". Can't say I agree with some of the reasoning, but I did like it quite a bit.

As far as placing bets goes, I'll be bold and place 20 bucks on my theory's version of Shkanon (but I'm not obligated to pay if the second, or last clauses turn out to be false). I'm not that confident, but why not?
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Old 2010-12-30, 10:33   Link #20605
neutrino
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@witchfan: thanks

Ryuukishi07 actually discusses trolling like people have been talking about in Anti-Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy. It's called the "last part queen problem" and he even used it in Higurashi. Everything revealed in EP7 can be overturned.
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Old 2010-12-30, 11:32   Link #20606
SonozakiUshiromiya
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I'll put 20 on a boiler explosion.
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Old 2010-12-30, 11:50   Link #20607
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You need to refresh my memory.

Anyway I'll put any virtual money you want on the theory I had back after EP4 more than 1 year and a half ago: The Rokkenjima incident was caused by a volcano.
Although I can now be more precise and claim that it's a phreatic eruption.
I actually looked a bit into plat tectonics when you suggested it back then and I don't think I found anything to support the possibility of a spontaneous volcanic outflow without warning signs.

Well anyway many parts of my theory has been confirmed by Ep7. The basic central theory has remained unchanged though:

There is one or two masterminds tied intimately with the legend and the family, however the murders are perpetrated by other people on the island, (in)directly caused by the mastermind(s).

1. One person harbors dissociative identity disorder, at most 3 personalities, with one personality as a "control personality". This would be Yasu, dissociating into the control personality that is Yasu's perception of becoming Beatrice, with Shannon and Kanon as subservient personalities. As such, Beatrice controls the awareness and flow of information between all personalities, thus preventing criss-crossing of information she does not allow and maintaining the relative separation of her subservient personalities. For a similarity, read up on Fei Fong Wong of Xenogears.

2. The mastermind is Yasu. If there is a second mastermind, it is most likely George.

3. The closed room mysteries are explainable by the personality switching, which manages to bypass the semantic and linguistic limitations of colored text.

4. The one big killer that eliminates all remnants of the island is an explosion. Specifically, the submarine and it's ammunition exploding like a giant bomb.
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:09   Link #20608
Raiza Sunozaki
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Joining in for a last hurrah, before Episode 8 shows up and I disappear again, I'm betting 20 virtual dollars/online pride on Shkanontrice not being confirmed as truth. I'm still against it no matter how likely he pushes it. And if he doesn't confirm it as truth, it gives me something to argue on when I get the patch.
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:16   Link #20609
Renall
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Personality switching and semi-conscious (or, God forbid, conscious) red evasion would automatically make Umineko a terrible story. It's a resolution just about on par with space aliens. At least aliens abducting Battler for 12 years would absolve him of not coming home to Ange.
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:26   Link #20610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Personality switching and semi-conscious (or, God forbid, conscious) red evasion would automatically make Umineko a terrible story. It's a resolution just about on par with space aliens. At least aliens abducting Battler for 12 years would absolve him of not coming home to Ange.
Maybe, but who said anything about personality switching? That's not what Shkanon is about. If Shkanon is true, Yasu knows very well that Kanon and Shannon are artificial personalities. The love trial is all about her consciously deciding which personality she wants to live her life as. However, she's unable to make up her mind about it, since she's made promises to multiple people already, and she's the kind of person who feels that a promise is a sacred thing.

In the same way that Yasu couldn't pull off the magic tricks if she believed in magic, she also couldn't pull off Shkanon if she believed them to exist in the real world.
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:39   Link #20611
witchfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Personality switching and semi-conscious (or, God forbid, conscious) red evasion would automatically make Umineko a terrible story. It's a resolution just about on par with space aliens. At least aliens abducting Battler for 12 years would absolve him of not coming home to Ange.
I've been repeatedly saying this. The "regular" Shkanon theory seems absurdly contrived to me. But some people disagree....
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:41   Link #20612
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Maybe, but who said anything about personality switching?
The guy a couple notches above my post, to whom I was responding.
Quote:
That's not what Shkanon is about.
Apparently it is, to the person I was talking to. I wasn't aware you were the Grand High Arbiter of Shkanon and could dictate what it was about. If he believes that's what it is, then that's what it is to him. I personally think that sort of plot development laughable, but I can't write off that he might be right.

It would make any time spent on this work the past few years a complete waste of my time, but I can't say he didn't call it if so.
Quote:
If Shkanon is true, Yasu knows very well that Kanon and Shannon are artificial personalities. The love trial is all about her consciously deciding which personality she wants to live her life as. However, she's unable to make up her mind about it, since she's made promises to multiple people already, and she's the kind of person who feels that a promise is a sacred thing.

In the same way that Yasu couldn't pull off the magic tricks if she believed in magic, she also couldn't pull off Shkanon if she believed them to exist in the real world.
That's, like, your opinion, man.
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This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-12-30, 12:41   Link #20613
MeoTwister5
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Well for me the DID isn't absolute. As chrono said, it's also likely that ShKanon are facades rather than actual personalities, that she presents to the world dependent on the situation at hand and the people she interacts with. In this sense rather than the control personality, Beatrice becomes her ideal self, a mix of the high ideals of a superego and the more base desires of the id.

But again we don't really know absolutely if ShKanon are absolute, distinct personalities or conscious artificial constructs. The only one who knows this is Yasu.
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:44   Link #20614
Renall
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Again, there's also the distinct possibility they're strict fictional constructs. The absurdity here is the idea that Shkanon must be actualized to have use to Yasu once idealized. Particularly in things which have been repeatedly hinted to be works of actual fiction.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-12-30, 12:45   Link #20615
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
At least aliens abducting Battler for 12 years would absolve him of not coming home to Ange.
And it would make for a great reaction from readers.

Since I haven't seen one in a while, this spawned a crack theory for me.
Spoiler for size:

Yeah. I have no idea where that came from.
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Old 2010-12-30, 13:11   Link #20616
BoxQueen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki View Post
Since I haven't seen one in a while, this spawned a crack theory for me.
Spoiler for size:

Yeah. I have no idea where that came from.
Your crack theory has imploded all my logical thoughts down the drain...
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Old 2010-12-30, 13:21   Link #20617
hilly
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Well,now that before the final game out,let me do some speculation
Did Yasu had motive to kill the family?
Yes,some of them.Like Rosa that killed his/her mom,so she try to lead Maria to hate and let her know the sweet yet deep world of witches.
Natushi that throw Yasu off the cliff and made him/her incomplete(psychically?).
Maybe the idea of kill them had come into mind when things happen in two years before 1986 and Yasu blamed fate and the people who had twisted it?
Eva and the others..don't know..maybe something happened in last two years before 1986.But if according to EP3,Eva had the probability to live through the massare,so that means Yasu don't have grudge against her?That may be also why Yasu develop feeling faster with george than jessica because Yasu hate Natushi's child?
Also,at EP5,when Battler revive,he mention something Beato is just like grandfather,waiting for the miracle to happen but she had failed..From here I think that Yasu begin the incident in order to made Battler solve the epitaph?and go to the room where gold is hidden and she wait for him there?Because both of them like mystery and this might make him remember the promise?
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Old 2010-12-30, 13:31   Link #20618
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Personally, I think EP7 made it rather clear there's no DID here, but a person creating roles for her to live as. Of course, you could technically say they are "personalities," since Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and whoever I may be missing have traits of their own, like different sets of behaviour, likes, dislikes, etc... i.e. they have a personality. And, as long as some people acknowledge them as real, then they "exist".

Of course, they being acknowledged by the Red is a kick in the balls, I think, but that seems to be one of the rules of this game.
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Old 2010-12-30, 13:37   Link #20619
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Moon Gohda also happens to be an operative of the "Yamoonu" counter-intelligence force under the control of intergalactic Tokyo.
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Old 2010-12-30, 14:15   Link #20620
Renall
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Personally, I think EP7 made it rather clear there's no DID here, but a person creating roles for her to live as. Of course, you could technically say they are "personalities," since Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice and whoever I may be missing have traits of their own, like different sets of behaviour, likes, dislikes, etc... i.e. they have a personality. And, as long as some people acknowledge them as real, then they "exist".

Of course, they being acknowledged by the Red is a kick in the balls, I think, but that seems to be one of the rules of this game.
Don't be too sure. I still want to believe he's being earnest about the red; i.e. no tricks like "Shannon is dead but Beatrice isn't lol!" Short of that, there are many ways the rest of what you said can be true and still be fair. I'm going to take Beatrice at her word on the red being intended to help rather than hinder (and red evasion goes directly against that premise).

I do agree on this point as well: The idea that Yasu is somehow mentally ill in some form is laughable. People with debilitating mental conditions cannot do the things she does, let alone the things she's suspected of doing. Her reaction to adverse events is also very different from that of a mentally ill individual; she becomes despondent and depressed, and that honestly is about it and is a perfectly rational response for an entirely sane person to have in response to setbacks.

Defense of disingenuous and heartless arguments necessitates the application of insanity because no rational and compassionate explanation has been found, can be found, or will be found for those arguments. Absent outright malice, insanity is the last line of defense. The reasonable conclusion is that the answer must lie elsewhere, that is, with a sane and rational (but not necessarily reasonable) individual.
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Moon Gohda also happens to be an operative of the "Yamoonu" counter-intelligence force under the control of intergalactic Tokyo.
Intergalactic Tokyo: It's like regular Tokyo, but futuristic.

...more futuristic?
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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