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Old 2011-01-01, 05:28   Link #21001
Sherringford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
But...we already practically know all of that. Again, Ryukishi is not going to give us some of the answers straight-up. We have more than enough to speculate on the solutions to the first four games and the gold text and such. We might not ever get a confirmation from Ryukishi saying "congratulations, you were so correct!", but I don't need one.

Shut up the specific answers inside the cat box and speculate for yourself. Determine your own solution for Umineko and reconcile it with what is shown ^^
Frankly, I find that approach pretentious. The idea isn't bad, but Ryuukishi wasn't quite good enough to pull it off. There is a difference between leaving the audience to wonder as you make your story seem ambiguous, and setting up a problem without answering it.

He talked big about what mysteries should be like, focusing on the whydunit, which is fine.

Mysteries can't ignore the heart. That's true. But you know what? They also can't ignore the soul and the body, yet Ryuukishi did.

The who was just thrown in without much thought, and the how is not so much as mentioned. It works fine as a story, but he doesn't have the right to make lectures about what a mystery should be like when he outright ignores the soul and the body of a mystery.

I can confidently say that Umineko is a bad mystery. It's a good story, if a bit of a letdown, but definitely not a mystery.

Quote:

edit: @fer: Ryukishi said the mystery was done in EP7. A lot of the people who 'feel cheated' and are raging in general either had the wrong expectations or are just going on false-rumor-fueled ragetrips (specifically /jp/).
I don't see your point. The episode 7 tea party was just so bad as a mystery solution that no one thought he was serious. No one feels 'cheated' just disappointed. I lost all my expectations for a good ending(and by that I mean a satisfying ending, not one where things end well for everyone) around episode 6. That's more or less when I went "yes, that's not a mystery. That's fine. Let's hope that Beatrice's story has a satisfying conclusion." and it had the conclusion most of us expected it.

It just feels like a case of too much build up for little return.
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Old 2011-01-01, 05:40   Link #21002
Iromaru
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To be honest the mystery (LOL) part of Umineko is solvable.

The thing is none of that mattered at all. It was all in crazy old guy's head. Over half of the characters are fiction inside fiction inside fiction. Rest are fiction inside fiction.

This ending is really disappointing.
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Old 2011-01-01, 05:41   Link #21003
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I have one question: Are the red guts scenes from Ep7 explained? About why Kinzo wanted to steal the gold, and Yasu was upset with her body?
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Old 2011-01-01, 05:56   Link #21004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
To be honest the mystery (LOL) part of Umineko is solvable.

The thing is none of that mattered at all. It was all in crazy old guy's head. Over half of the characters are fiction inside fiction inside fiction. Rest are fiction inside fiction.

This ending is really disappointing.
Oh whatever. People have been guessing that everything was in someone's head since EP6, if not earlier. You didn't actually think the Meta-World was a literal plane of existence with witches and demons running around, did you?
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Old 2011-01-01, 05:58   Link #21005
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh whatever. People have been guessing that everything was in someone's head since EP6, if not earlier. You didn't actually think the Meta-World was a literal plane of existence with witches and demons running around, did you?
Isn't it just supposed to be metaphorical instead of 'just in someone's head'? After all, I don't think Battler will randomly 'think' his little sister get crushed into mincemeat.
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:05   Link #21006
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Alright, I've finished as well, I can confirm a few things here.

Spoiler for :


Ah, I seemed to have a lot to say, but now I can't remember...
Anyway, the episode IS actually quite good, we just aren't spoon-fed. As far as motive goes, to me, it's not just greed, just like everything you have to take another look and figure it out for yourself. I thought it was them
Spoiler for :
all along really, so I had come up with various reasons along the way. Whether my theories on that are correct or not, I do believe for nearly anyone as the culprit it would be a culmination of smaller issues, along with some greed.


I should have gone to bed three hours ago, so I'm going to head off now, but maybe I'll do a summary or some such when I get home? I can see if I can manage to get my 'motivation for murder' theory down, it's one of those things that makes total sense in your head, but doesn't seem to come out right in words? XD
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:21   Link #21007
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I'm not sure I'd call it "unexpected." Haven't people been guessing it since ep3-4, jokingly at first, then increasingly more serious from ep4 on?
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:21   Link #21008
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh whatever. People have been guessing that everything was in someone's head since EP6, if not earlier. You didn't actually think the Meta-World was a literal plane of existence with witches and demons running around, did you?
It's been part of the problem as to why the Red is a double edged sword as well. For us viewers, we've come to a point that like the Red usage, we expect things to be confirmed and spoon fed before we accept anything as "true", which is sad. We accept only one absolute truth or conclusion, and we either love it or hate it.

In a way, we're still an extension of the characters' mindsets.

So even then R07 is fucking with our minds. Goddammit get out of my head urgggggggh;lasdjaisdhakjdnmcnzdufse
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:21   Link #21009
Sherringford
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Jokes aside though, it was an okay story. Its only fault is having too much buildup. And I won't rant about it until I get to read it myself.
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:25   Link #21010
Iromaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh whatever. People have been guessing that everything was in someone's head since EP6, if not earlier. You didn't actually think the Meta-World was a literal plane of existence with witches and demons running around, did you?
Spoiler for End:


And no EP8 isn't terrible, it's actually really good. Except the ending and final answers. Not final answers to the murders, but the whole Umineko universe.
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:34   Link #21011
witchfan
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I had the chance to read the prologue from a livestream, from what spoilers I've seen, I'm really quite worried about this episode now. For people who have finished the thing:

Spoiler for questions about EP8:


I'd appreciate a non-spoilerific answer (answer "yes" or "no" if possible, otherwise elaborate just a little). If the answer to the second and third questions is false, this would be, in my eyes, a damning episode for the series.

Also, there was supposed to be a "Tsubasa" disc released with EP8. Does it contain only TIPs we've already read, or does it actually answer any questions?

Last edited by witchfan; 2011-01-01 at 06:51.
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Old 2011-01-01, 06:50   Link #21012
Arabesque
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I wanted to play the game itself before wrtting anything and then replay the whole series to see how everything ties into each other, but
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
So what was the point of all those Higurashi references, Bern's and Lambda's backstories and their logic errors, their characterization, Bern's letters and Lambda's diary, etc. All this took a significant part of Umineko yet it was all just some stupid fiction with no meaning? I can't accept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
To be honest the mystery (LOL) part of Umineko is solvable.

The thing is none of that mattered at all. It was all in crazy old guy's head. Over half of the characters are fiction inside fiction inside fiction. Rest are fiction inside fiction.

This ending is really disappointing.
I can understand this sort of reaction, as you say all the characters we've seen thus far, the situations they went through were all the mad ramblings of a middle aged amnesiac man who's too hung up about his past. They were all fictional, make belief, imaginary.

But, to quote Alan Moore
These are imaginary stories, but aren't they all?

Ever since Episode 6 came along, and the whole Author Avatar came into play, I was prepared to have all the metaworld, supernatural/magical elements hand waved as being fictional, at least to matters relating to Umineko itself. I'm willing to accept that conclusion because, despite them being fictional, Umineko itself is a fictional work. It really doesn't matter if it's fiction within fiction, that world still got developments and focus, characters and their backgrounds, and hell they each had their moments to shine and made us care about them. It doesn't really matter if the book within the book you're reading isn't really if you end up enjoying it, right? They're both about fictional characters experiencing fictional events.

So I don't really mind that aspect tbh, I'm just concerned on how it's all been executed. But I can't say anymore unless I lay the game first ofc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Oh whatever. People have been guessing that everything was in someone's head since EP6, if not earlier. You didn't actually think the Meta-World was a literal plane of existence with witches and demons running around, did you?
Actually, do they go ahead and debunk the kakera concept? Because It could be that the stories that Hachijō Tōya wrote could still be true, and the events in the meta world had actually happened, at least in a different world.
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Spoiler for EP8 spoilers:
Spoiler for :
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:04   Link #21013
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This reminds me of King's Cross chapter of HP.


"Is this all real or is it only in my head?"

"Of course it's all in your head Harry, but that doesn't mean it's not real."
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:13   Link #21014
Iromaru
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So I don't really mind that aspect tbh
Spoiler for opinions:


But maybe I just don't have love.
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:17   Link #21015
witchfan
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But maybe I just don't have love.
You don't. Neither do I. The new definition of love is "unconditionally accept whatever crack ending Ryukishi throws at us".
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:25   Link #21016
ndqanh_vn
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But maybe I just don't have love.
Well, this is my first time to post something in an Umineko thread. I think it's understandable if people got angry in the case no question is clearly answered. Well, R07 might expect me to think but I'm afraid I'm not so smart...and the story turns into a very chaotic route after episode 3. After finishing EP 7 I still have no idea what actually goes on. (Thinking back, after watching the four arc of Higurashi I had been able to conclude who is the mastermind...)And if that is the case, then the whole "love" thing is a big let down.

Anyways none of us has completed the story in English yet, and I still believe that the whole Yasu thing must have some significance in the event. If not, all we learn about Beatrice would be kind of pointless.

But whatever the ending would be, whatever Ryukishi would pull out at the end, being his reader for so long, I would still say that he's the kind of writer I like: He has ambition for his story. He could create a universe, and suck us inside it like water to sand. Whether he actually could do it or not, I will still respect him. And Umineko as a whole still shows his ability as a creative writer, and I believe that man would go further in the future.

At least I think that respect is my bit of love for him as a reader

Sorry for the bad English.
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:39   Link #21017
Arabesque
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Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Spoiler for opinions:
Spoiler for opinions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Spoiler for opinions:
Spoiler for opinions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
But maybe I just don't have love.
I actually think the whole ''without love'' bit as more of just accepting reality in a view that makes you manage to move on from your past in relation to the story. Then again, If you love the fictional parts, you can keep them as real I guess.
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:43   Link #21018
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i have q

Spoiler for Q:
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:49   Link #21019
ndqanh_vn
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I actually think the whole ''without love'' bit as more of just accepting reality in a view that makes you manage to move on from your past in relation to the story. Then again, If you love the fictional parts, you can keep them as real I guess.
I kind of agree with your opinion her. The story is more or less the journey of Ange herself to move on from the Rockenjima incidents...In that case the thesis of the story is pretty neat and well-done.

However, many of us...well...how should I say... didn't really care much about Ange.
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Old 2011-01-01, 07:53   Link #21020
Cao Ni Ma
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Its a crack ending from a hack writer. It could have been better if RK was a better writer but he's proven now that he just cant write compelling endings without messing something up. He's great during the mystery parts of the stories but everything falls apart during the answers.

I really cant accept this ending, which by episode 4 everyone would have thought it to be a joke. I have no more love left for RK, I'll read he's story, maybe, if they are compelling. But I wont theorize anything about them, I'll just read them once they are all finished and save myself the wasted time.
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