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Old 2011-01-02, 14:35   Link #21121
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Just done with episode 8

I think it's pretty clear to me that Kyrie and Rudolph killed everyone. Yasu/Beatrice committed suicide out of guilt and thus leaving Battler traumatized and losing his memory

I'm glad that Ange got closure, though. She's been through a lot.

What I am not clear is if Hachijo was Yasu or not. It seems just too convenient for a random author to take you in.

And Ange did say they seemed close enough to be mistaken as a married couple
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:03   Link #21122
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I don't quite remember who said this but whoever he was he was absolutely right."By giving too much emphasis on the heart of the mystery ryukish ignored the body and soul".Aside for that i think umineko is almost perfect.
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:26   Link #21123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Battler returned and remembered her, would that not be a miracle on the roulette? We never saw Remembering-Battler VS George, so it's sort of a toss-up. But Beatrice keeps trying to make Battler remember even post-George proposal.
Who knows? I'm just going by what Yasu herself said. She said she'd entrust herself to the roulette, follow it with determination and obey the result. If Battler were to return one year later and remembered her, I honestly don't know what'd she'd do. However, if we say she sent those letters with the objective of Battler returning on 1987 when she was planning on seeing the end of the Love Duel/the result of the roulette on 1986, then it'd make me think she wasn't really planning on following the roulette.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yasu's motives pretty much contradict all the fucking time, but what about the message bottles being sent out years before, and only being found when they were?
I don't see how her motives contradict each other, to be honest. Perhaps, you could say what she truly wants conflicts what she plans to do, but when know she's doing what she does because she felt she's unable to control her destiny. So, it's not really a contradiction, but resigning herself to fate.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Ultimately it doesn't matter so long as they're sent out before the conference, because she can't send them AFTER.
The problem is, it matters, a lot. Yasu is indeed a person who tries to believe in miracles, but even if she tries to do the impossible, see the invisible, row row fight the power... she's not dumb. Even if we assume that, deep down inside, she really wanted Battler to show up during 1986 and change the apparent definite course of the roulette, there's no way those letters would have reached Battler if she sent the merely few weeks before the conference. This is why I'm saying that, had she sent them one year before, no... even 6 moths before, I'd believe she was trying to bring Battler back.

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Even though it's objectively wrong? :P
As for the mysteries are related, I'll agree. As for the actual incidents, I honestly have no idea. There's too much meta right now, that even if I have my theories on what happened, I don't know if we've ever seen the real world or if we can even tell what happened there. So, unlike you, I cannot say anyone is "objectively wrong" about the real world in Umineko, when all I can say is "I don't know".
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Old 2011-01-02, 15:27   Link #21124
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The thing is Ryukishi stated he wouldn't be explaining Yasu and her motives past EP7.
Or more to the point, "I've given you so many hints, if you still can't figure it out, you don't deserve to know."
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Old 2011-01-02, 16:26   Link #21125
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Quote:
Something he obviously shouldn't have said, had he wanted to end this as a mystery novel (I figured he'd just go back on his word, or give us enough hints to easily figure it out ourselves, myself).
Obviously, that's not what he wanted. I thought EP7's ??? made that clear.

Quote:
What I am not clear is if Hachijo was Yasu or not. It seems just too convenient for a random author to take you in.
She's too old to be Yasu. And Yasu committed suicide. You could say Ikuko finding Battler was a miracle.

Quote:
Who knows? I'm just going by what Yasu herself said. She said she'd entrust herself to the roulette, follow it with determination and obey the result. If Battler were to return one year later and remembered her, I honestly don't know what'd she'd do. However, if we say she sent those letters with the objective of Battler returning on 1987 when she was planning on seeing the end of the Love Duel/the result of the roulette on 1986, then it'd make me think she wasn't really planning on following the roulette.
It wouldn't be the first time Yasu lied to herself to keep from taking responsibility for her choices, but I don't see how sending out message bottles with a one in quadrillion chance of reaching Battler isn't a roulette.

Quote:
I don't see how her motives contradict each other, to be honest. Perhaps, you could say what she truly wants conflicts what she plans to do, but when know she's doing what she does because she felt she's unable to control her destiny. So, it's not really a contradiction, but resigning herself to fate.
All the Meta-characters call Beatrice out on it though. The way you worded it could fit, but let's just say that trying to reverse the chessboard on Yasu doesn't work well.

Quote:
The problem is, it matters, a lot. Yasu is indeed a person who tries to believe in miracles, but even if she tries to do the impossible, see the invisible, row row fight the power... she's not dumb. Even if we assume that, deep down inside, she really wanted Battler to show up during 1986 and change the apparent definite course of the roulette, there's no way those letters would have reached Battler if she sent the merely few weeks before the conference. This is why I'm saying that, had she sent them one year before, no... even 6 moths before, I'd believe she was trying to bring Battler back.
I can go with a year before. The point is they were sent before, and not after, 1986. Does that work?
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Old 2011-01-02, 16:27   Link #21126
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So far I've read a lot of spoilers for EP8 (both here and on /jp/)

Spoiler for opinion:
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Old 2011-01-02, 16:37   Link #21127
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but Battler was not Yasu

Yasu was Yasu

Battler came to that island for Yasu.

But it was already too late because she had given her heart to George
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:22   Link #21128
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Yea, I don't know how you're getting "YasuShkanonEvaKyrietrice" from "Amnesia", which sort of makes sense since he suffered head trauma.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:24   Link #21129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Or more to the point, "I've given you so many hints, if you still can't figure it out, you don't deserve to know."
That's pretty much what he's saying, but it's clearly not true, or we would've come up with a definite theory by now, and would've had enough evidence to prove it. Instead we're very divided on what her motive was.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Obviously, that's not what he wanted. I thought EP7's ??? made that clear.
We clearly disagree about the point it became obvious, then. Anyway, I am talking about what he could've done to make EP8 into a mystery, not about whether it not being a mystery was to be expected (by the way, I haven't bothered defending this point, but I personally do not agree that it was), so I don't know what you're trying to say.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:25   Link #21130
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Umineko ep8 end spoilers

Spoiler for Umineko:
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:29   Link #21131
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Out of mere interest more than anything, why are Lambda and Burn fighting?
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:32   Link #21132
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Spoiler for EP8:
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:33   Link #21133
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I'm personally curious what are the current theories about Yasu's motive then.
For one, I basically only saw one which is basically similar to what I thought: Yasu just couldn't do anything about her love being simply split in 3 ways.
Therefore, she left everything to the roulette, although she never planned killing anyone, she probably expected an incident would occur considering the gold etc.

The whole "beatrice" stuff was plain and simply out of love for Battler: both had a very peculiar relationship when they were youngs and it was solely based on mystery novels and whatnot. So I will agree with Aura: she was trying to settle things, she wasn't going to move on. If Battler fails to catch the flags, well that's just too bad.

I really have trouble to see anything that would be closer to the truth regarding Yasu so huh.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:39   Link #21134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azule View Post
Out of mere interest more than anything, why are Lambda and Burn fighting?
Lambda wanted to see what was the conviction behind "we will make a happy ending, with certainty!" made by Battler and Ange.
So she assisted Battler and Ange in their mission of preserving the cat box. And for that, they need to recover Ange's key that she has left to Bernkastel's care after their contract.

As they needed time to find the key and dissolve the seal apposed by Bern, they needed someone to stall time should Bern find them (as people in the Golden Land would obviously not be able to fool Erika forever).
Because of this, Lambda volunteered and had a showtime with Bern.

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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
Spoiler for EP8:
Erika was drawn back from oblivious by Bernkastel, upon Battler's request (as a mark of respect and sportsmanship, sort of).
She assisted Ange in order to seize the opportunity to open the catbox for bern (Ange was still trying to expose the truth no matter what, so she got help from Bern in order to recover the Book)

Eva Beatrice was a "free piece" and helped Ange, as she is actually the Eva of 1986-1998, trying to act as a mother for Ange.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:41   Link #21135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura
Or more to the point, "I've given you so many hints, if you still can't figure it out, you don't deserve to know."
For a "Detective reader" (because not all readers of mysteries are trying to solve the case themselves), final revelation ain't as much a revelation as much as it is a Confirmation. Even if they are absolutely sure in their theory, many won't have peace until they can confirm how correct they are. Without a revelation that answers all questions, they won't feel victorious even if they are.

I understand why R07 did it. He didn't run from readers as some here said. He didn't want for those who never tried to find answers to find out the truth (he said it few times in interviews that he wanted to reward those who tried and didn't want to reward those who didn't). However, many of those who gave their best are not satisfied: they want the revelation part of mystery to be there so they could confirm their victory... or loss if they are wrong.

I didn't read the VN so I am not wanting to be too critical, but if there was no definite answer then I can't say that he did a good move there. No matter how obvious a mystery is for those who tried, answers should be there and they should be clear IMO.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:44   Link #21136
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@Nayreal: what you say is absolutely correct. Were this a mystery novel, a confirmation is to be expected... but this is why we're saying it isn't. I greatly dislike this fact, but that's how Ryukishi rolls.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I really have trouble to see anything that would be closer to the truth regarding Yasu so huh.
I have problem with this theory for a number of reasons, but I don't want to get into this discussion. As far as I'm concerned, however, it's only one of many motives, and it's relatively a very weak one.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:49   Link #21137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witchfan View Post
I have problem with this theory for a number of reasons, but I don't want to get into this discussion. As far as I'm concerned, however, it's only one of many motives, and it's relatively a very weak one.
I really don't see why we need an overly complex motive for a character of Yasu's caliber.
it isn't like she was painted as a Takano Miyo or anything of that kind.

I believe the motive should rather be in line with the said character, and not because the reader consider it as "weak/unworthy" to start everything. And if we considering the nature of usual motives, that would be the one that make much more sense with Meta Beato's behavior, Virgilia's red, Battler's change of heart etc.

Of course, that might be a complete different story if you consider yasu as the culprit, in the criminal sense but well.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:50   Link #21138
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As for Ikuko being Yasu, I don't know, but she seemed to have a life of her own. In addition Tōya (i.e. older Battler) doesn't really identity himself with Ushiromiya Battler. From what I've read several times in 2ch and /jp/, Tōya refers to himself as "the man who holds the memories of Ushiromiya Battler". However, he finds this terrifying, because he feels having those memories would destroy his existence as he is now. The, at the end, we have that scene in which he's standing in front of that picture of Beatrice at Fukuin, and we get that convo between Battler and Beatrice that someone posted before. Personally, I think that can be taken in several ways. For one, it looked like when Rika separated herself from Bernkastel, and at the same time, it seems that Tōya is parting fully with Ushiromiya Battler.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It wouldn't be the first time Yasu lied to herself to keep from taking responsibility for her choices, but I don't see how sending out message bottles with a one in quadrillion chance of reaching Battler isn't a roulette.
Yasu hasn't really deceived herself to avoid taking responsibility from her choices, I think, but the whole opposite. She kept on deceiving herself to keep on waiting for Battler. She was that determined. This is why I believe that, if she said she was going to obey the ruling of the roulette, she meant it.

This is why I'm saying there's a possibility the letters weren't written for Battler. And this is precisely why I believe the timing in which she sent these bottles to the sea is very important. Had she wanted Battler to show up at the 1986 conference, then I think she'd have sent them much earlier, so that there'd be an actual chance of them reaching Battler.

Personally, I think this is coming down on how we see Yasu's character, whether she'd actually follow the result of the roulette to an end, or not. I guess we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
All the Meta-characters call Beatrice out on it though. The way you worded it could fit, but let's just say that trying to reverse the chessboard on Yasu doesn't work well.
Indeed, many people call Beatrice on being fickle, but I think if we go through the story, we can see she's very determined. That, and as far as I saw it, Beatrice was a part of Yasu, but not her entirety.

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I can go with a year before. The point is they were sent before, and not after, 1986. Does that work?
Honestly, for me, not really. I mean, if we go by the idea that she'd be willing to disregard the roulette's original decision, and go for a second try by using the letters in the bottles, then she definitely could have done it after, since she would have had no idea of the tragedy that would take place during the conference. On the other hand, if she was willing to obey the roulette's decision, but she was willing to bring Battler into this game, then I think the timing for sending out these letters is really important, and sending them just a week before the conference doesn't really work in my opinion.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:52   Link #21139
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@Klash: I consider it a possibility that she is capable of keeping her word. If that possibility is true, that's reason enough to say this motive in itself is unsatisfactory. If it isn't, there are still a number of problems related to the ambiguity of her actions (and what she says in EP7), but as I said, I don't want to get into that. (I'd like to say that I, personally, don't even take the three-way love thing for granted, so I have a problem with the motive on that level, too.)

e- I think I didn't make this clear. To admit the possibility of "would-be culprit Yasu" is in itself admission that this motive is not absolute.

Last edited by witchfan; 2011-01-02 at 18:14.
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Old 2011-01-02, 17:55   Link #21140
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I really don't get how you are taking part of the discussion then: you are definitely sure that there isn't enough clues to determine Episode 7 was sufficient to figure what's up with Yasu's plan and mind.

Yet, as a certain explanation is regarded as the consensus, you outright disagree with it, but do not even expand the issue regarding that said explanation.
That's just like saying "No, you are wrong, but I don't want to tell you why".

I do not ask you to agree with me, but I just do not understand your position, as you don't even explain your take about the very thing you are complaining about: Yasu.
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