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Old 2011-01-01, 19:57   Link #9221
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
As far as I know, the military vehicles we have seen so far are meant to be used by anyone with the necessary training, magi or not (e.g. Vice and Alto are heli pilots even though the former is a magus while the latter isn't). So the answer, as far as I know, is no, the vehicles don't run on mana.

As to A, I think Force has your answer. The Bureau does conduct research on equipment that could augment their magi's performance, which leads us to the subjectively lamentable mechanisation of the cast (I still think Fortress Nanoha is freaking ugly.....). If one is to argue that the equipment we see in Force comes only as a response to the Hucklebein threat and is thus not SOP, I would say that even before Force we already have, at least, hints of the Bureau's efforts in this area, namingly the devices that their magi use. Maybe not stuff like powered exoskeletons, but for the magi, improving the quality of their devices is an essential upgrade nonetheless, as the devices will influence how they perform in the field. I doubt even the Aces, skilled as they are, will perform as well as they do now if their devices are not up to par. Bardiche was in fact created to improve Fate's combat abilities, and as for someone like Hayate who uses ceremonial-level magic day-in-day-out, the lack of a good device that could handle the complex preparations for the spells she uses (like Rein Zwei and the rebuilt Tome of the Night Sky), will pretty much render her useful (thus shafting her even more ).
Right, if normal people can use them that means they are still using a different power source that doesn't rely on magic. Okay that's good. That means they have a source of energy they can mass produce.

So... One can improve the power of their magic through upgrading their equipment, I guess this can be seen even as far back as A's, so their is a way to power up the grunts...

I'm thinking implants and cartridges for everyone.



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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
As for B, the reason I think is already covered in StrikerS. General disapproval to the use of mass weaponry is the major stumbling block to its development. The Bureau is certainly capable of producing them; the problem is that they are unwilling to do so, or at least on a massive scale.
Do you think... Their war machines can be on par with their high-leveled mages?



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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
The fact that Genya's squadron managed to keep the drones at bay long enough suggest that the magi supply in the Bureau is not as strained as some of us may suspect. Also, this may be speculation on my part, but I do believe the Bureau does keep enough non-direct-human-powered weapons (like her warships) to maintain the balance. The implied threat to blast your capital (and you with it) from outer space should aid somewhat in negotiations. And then we have people like Lunessa who are allowed to carry firearms, abeit with a license. So they do bend the rules here and there to make do.
So basically all you need is the right reason for the TSAB to unleash their weapons on you?

Mah~ For nanohaverse, we have to work with 'No Proof'

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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
Of course, otoh there's always diplomacy, leaving the Administrated Worlds to handle day-to-day stuff on their own, and the discreet use of mercenaries or "private military companies", all to get things done. That said, with cases like Orussia, it's safe to assume that Midchilda avoids taking on more than it can chew, and there will be times when nothing can be done or solved, even by named characters. If the Nanoha series is willing to take a darker, more realistic and, dare I say, more complex approach to its story, this kind of scenario pop out quite frequently, scenarios where the main characters can do no more than just what they're supposed to do as law enforcers, and watch, with relative helplessness and pent-up righteous rage, as scum protected by the law go free and safe, and moral justice is left unfulfilled.

That would be nice.
Or if they encounter another superpower just as strong as they are, and can't afford to go to war so causally.
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Old 2011-01-02, 04:43   Link #9222
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I'm sure the more well-informed guys can provide a better insight but outclassed as they are, offensive vehicles provide a means for the redshirts to have area dominance and presence. Have the big shots plow though and the tanks can roll in afterwards to take the area. Said war machines can have the same role of deterrence as a good mage when the TSAB needs something else in place when protecting their installations and personnel, as proven many times the shortage of good manpower they have.

Firepower shouldn't be a issue but versatility falls short when compared to a proficient spellcaster. In any case magitech generators are shown to be used widely enough throughout the TSAB(uh Chrono's ships and Ground HQ's barrier engine for example?) that you could come up with your own vehicle to address the issue. Storm Raider's shown devices can be adapted for use elsewhere so that gives some leeway in seeing devices in unusual forms. Perhaps toned-down versions of IDs as limited equipment? A step in between the customized devices for the CCs and the RH-ripoff the grunts employ, formless but extremely versatile and adaptable. Plug and play method for easy switching between vehs to weaponry so they can connect to the generators without worrying about whether the user is able to use magic or not.

A small group of volunteers for the implant approach would be the way to go imho. Tuning and adjustments would be part of the process so I don't imagine the majority of the grunts consenting to it.
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Old 2011-01-02, 05:36   Link #9223
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
I'm sure the more well-informed guys can provide a better insight but outclassed as they are, offensive vehicles provide a means for the redshirts to have area dominance and presence. Have the big shots plow though and the tanks can roll in afterwards to take the area. Said war machines can have the same role of deterrence as a good mage when the TSAB needs something else in place when protecting their installations and personnel, as proven many times the shortage of good manpower they have.

Firepower shouldn't be a issue but versatility falls short when compared to a proficient spellcaster. In any case magitech generators are shown to be used widely enough throughout the TSAB(uh Chrono's ships and Ground HQ's barrier engine for example?) that you could come up with your own vehicle to address the issue. Storm Raider's shown devices can be adapted for use elsewhere so that gives some leeway in seeing devices in unusual forms. Perhaps toned-down versions of IDs as limited equipment? A step in between the customized devices for the CCs and the RH-ripoff the grunts employ, formless but extremely versatile and adaptable. Plug and play method for easy switching between vehs to weaponry so they can connect to the generators without worrying about whether the user is able to use magic or not.
- Magic generator means it and interact with magic.
- It's mechanical so it can function like a device.
- It has to be putting out more power/magic than your average grunt otherwise it's pointless.
- Any grunt can use it.


You know the way I see it, if it can run on magic via a generator of sort, and it can interact with that magic, then it stands to reason that rather than just blasting beams in a straight line, why can't their vehicles be use to cast large and powerful spells? I mean, it's essentially a bigger device right? Hell, devices can withstand incredible punishment, AND they self repair.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
A small group of volunteers for the implant approach would be the way to go imho. Tuning and adjustments would be part of the process so I don't imagine the majority of the grunts consenting to it.
I don't want to do the whole cyborg thing again, so I'll settle for chemicals that enhances Brain functions (faster reflexes), slight increase in cell regeneration (healing), and maybe something to strength bone density? And perhaps a carapace around their heart like an armor?

Too much?

Hmm, in the first place, what are the important factors that affect a mage's capability?
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Old 2011-01-02, 06:45   Link #9224
Estavali
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Right, if normal people can use them that means they are still using a different power source that doesn't rely on magic. Okay that's good. That means they have a source of energy they can mass produce.

So... One can improve the power of their magic through upgrading their equipment, I guess this can be seen even as far back as A's, so their is a way to power up the grunts...

I'm thinking implants and cartridges for everyone.
You might want to consider that not everyone would be able to handle implants due to personal beliefs and/or physical limitations. That aside, you also have to consider the need for long-time maintainance for the implants. Subaru and Ginga were cyborgised since they were babies and even now they still need to undergo regular checks and maintainence. And this is possible thanks to their employment under the Bureau. What if someone accepts the implant(s), subsequently loses his job and finds that he is no longer entitled to the regular checkups he enjoyed as a Bureau staff? This could either lead to desperate means (like resorting to illegal or even criminal alternatives), or disability (physical and/or mental) and even death.

The same could be said for cartridges too, what with the talk in A's about Intelligent Devices being too fragile to fully support the cartridge system, but seeing that more and more Armed and Intelligent Devices are being outfited with them, I'm not so sure any more.

Quote:
Do you think... Their war machines can be on par with their high-leveled mages?
None of the cast can outblast a TSAB warship so far, not even Hayate, the nuker in the team. Given Mid's apparent high-level technology, it's not impossible for them to have come up with blueprints for weapons that could out-fight magi (at least on a one-to-one scenario).

The question, once again, is whether they're willing to actually implement those designs and risk public criticism.

Quote:
So basically all you need is the right reason for the TSAB to unleash their weapons on you?

Mah~ For nanohaverse, we have to work with 'No Proof'
Heh? Why so?

Quote:
Or if they encounter another superpower just as strong as they are, and can't afford to go to war so causally.
That too.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Hmm, in the first place, what are the important factors that affect a mage's capability?
As far as I know, natural talent, training and preferably with a device best suited to the magus' style.
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Old 2011-01-02, 07:01   Link #9225
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
The same could be said for cartridges too, what with the talk in A's about Intelligent Devices being too fragile to fully support the cartridge system, but seeing that more and more Armed and Intelligent Devices are being outfited with them, I'm not so sure any more.
That's what I'm thinking as well. Cartridge can be the new standard to increase mage's capability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
None of the cast can outblast a TSAB warship so far, not even Hayate, the nuker in the team. Given Mid's apparent high-level technology, it's not impossible for them to have come up with blueprints for weapons that could out-fight magi (at least on a one-to-one scenario).

The question, once again, is whether they're willing to actually implement those designs and risk public criticism.
Yeah, plus as I've brought up, there's no reason why the machines can't be use to cast spells if they're run on magic. I mean, if a tiny staff and do that much, there's no reason why a tank or a heli can't as well.



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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
Heh? Why so?
Nay, I mean that alot of detailed specifics in Nanoha are theories and no concrete info.


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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
As far as I know, natural talent, training and preferably with a device best suited to the magus' style.
Hmm not exactly what I had in mind... Okay, Specifically what does the Link Core do? Is it the source of magic? Or is it the part that 'shape' the spell?
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Old 2011-01-02, 10:11   Link #9226
Estavali
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Hmm not exactly what I had in mind... Okay, Specifically what does the Link Core do? Is it the source of magic? Or is it the part that 'shape' the spell?
The first definition of the Linker Core can be found in the A's DVD booklets (the first item in the following link): http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/...dvd-1-booklet/

The next time the DVD covers mention the LC is in StrikerS (once again, first item): http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/...dvd-3-booklet/

To quote NanohaWiki, the Linker Core is an organ in the magus' body that is responsible of collecting mana from the atmosphere and releasing the stored mana out for use. Due to the confusion generated from the apparently differing descriptions in the A's and StrikerS DVD booklets (the former says that the LC links up the mana from within the magus' body while the latter says the mana comes from the atmosphere), there is some argument as to where mana comes from, in or out, collected or generated. Personally, I would say both; that the LC collects mana present in both the surroundings and the body. Besides the very organ that decides whether one is a magic-user or not, it also decides the areas where the magus would be strong or weak in.
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Old 2011-01-03, 04:50   Link #9227
Kyral
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I'm still alive! Oo

My real life actually doesn't gives me too much time for my hobbies... I'm actually quite happy that I'm able to game and draw some stuff (atm WarCraft OCs mainly xD)

So... sorry that I'm too pretty much am in lurk mode only atm... seeing how my last chapter was 5 months ago and all... :-/
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Old 2011-01-03, 04:55   Link #9228
itanshi1
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Think I made a mistake in my writings, I have a defense attorney and her adopted daughter.

Is it reasonable/worthwhile/able to justify a scenario where she defends her daughter in TSAB Tribunal court?
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Old 2011-01-03, 04:59   Link #9229
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Estavali View Post
The first definition of the Linker Core can be found in the A's DVD booklets (the first item in the following link): http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/...dvd-1-booklet/

The next time the DVD covers mention the LC is in StrikerS (once again, first item): http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/...dvd-3-booklet/

To quote NanohaWiki, the Linker Core is an organ in the magus' body that is responsible of collecting mana from the atmosphere and releasing the stored mana out for use. Due to the confusion generated from the apparently differing descriptions in the A's and StrikerS DVD booklets (the former says that the LC links up the mana from within the magus' body while the latter says the mana comes from the atmosphere), there is some argument as to where mana comes from, in or out, collected or generated. Personally, I would say both; that the LC collects mana present in both the surroundings and the body. Besides the very organ that decides whether one is a magic-user or not, it also decides the areas where the magus would be strong or weak in.
You know... I think you're right. If Magic is in the atmosphere that means it's in the air right? So by the simple act of breathing in oxygen, one can take in mana. In that case the Linker Core is like the lungs, only it processes magic instead of oxygen and sends it throughout the body...

Here's my question now- If the Linker Core is what allows the human to use magic, can it be artificially created or replicated with a machine? If so, it could allow anyone to become a mage.

Or here's another idea... We know that Linker Cores can be removed and it would eventually regenerate itself, if so why not mass transplant them? If the Book of Darkness can process that many different kinds of Linker Cores then there shouldn't be an issue with "unique compatibility". And if Linker Cores also affect how much magic you can play with then I would suggest farming one of the Aces for organs... Picture that, heh!
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Old 2011-01-03, 06:29   Link #9230
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I'm still alive! Oo

My real life actually doesn't gives me too much time for my hobbies... I'm actually quite happy that I'm able to game and draw some stuff (atm WarCraft OCs mainly xD)

So... sorry that I'm too pretty much am in lurk mode only atm... seeing how my last chapter was 5 months ago and all... :-/
Kyral! Long time no see- wait, did you say Warcraft OC's? Where do you upload your works?
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Old 2011-01-03, 17:43   Link #9231
Kyral
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Kyral! Long time no see- wait, did you say Warcraft OC's? Where do you upload your works?
Good to be back. ^^

Yup, got some WarCraft OCs, first one was created when I got myself WarCraft 3 TFT... the rest followed with WoW and it's expansions.

I upload on Imageshak... I once had an account for a german fanarts homepage a long time back then... but after a virtual fistfight with a moderator I decided to leave my art gallery as it was and never upload something there again...

(I can say it was about the very first Rinya in Knight Armor fanart I posted here, the moderator kept on insisting that her Belka-type magic circle in the background was an symbol protected by copyright and thus it was forbidden to upload the picture. They had no problem with Elric's Midchilda-type thou... :-/ )

Ah well...
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Old 2011-01-03, 17:55   Link #9232
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That sucks, he has no idea how copyright works eh :/ file a counter dmca takedown notice :3
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:18   Link #9233
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...and suddenly, there's a lot of new posts.

As always, I'm being Distracted by Awesome and also collecting material for inspiration.


...also considering converting my BreakerS OC-verse into an original story

*warps off*
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:44   Link #9234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I'm thinking implants and cartridges for everyone.
Note that implants won't work.

It was specifically said in Strikers that, while you can make new organs and things to replace something (ie, can make a new heart or liver, or muscle), you can't make things that will be *better* that the original. There are issues with long-term use and rejection and stuff. It was specifically said that Jail got around those problems by engineering babies when they were born, to be able to accept cyborg parts. So you can have your implants... if you're willing to be unethical about it and create such a baby from scratch. And even then, it needs regular maintenance, which can cost extra money.

Also, it was strongly hinted that not everyone can use cartridges, or would be appropriate. Caro and Hayate don't. Manufacturing the cartridges would also take extra resources. I'm gonna take a wild stab and say money isn't infinite where the TSAB is concerned.

Lastly, devices would seem to be mostly powered by their master's magic. Vice had one but Alto didn't. In fact, no non-mage is shown to have one. Why is that? Not even some sort of intelligent assistant, like we would have a Blackberry or smartphone. If the only way to provide sufficient power over the long haul (without the use of magic batteries that only give 6 hours of power) is the mage's magic, then it makes sense.

One last thing of interest: Every ship captain shown to date has been a mage. Perhaps a ship is merely just another device for a mage (perhaps multiple mages) in which they can store up their magic in it over time for use in various fashions (shields, weapons, hyperspace jumping). This doesn't rule out a standard power source as well, for for mundane things like lighting and thrusters, however. If we ever do see a non-mage ship captain, though, it'll blow this theory out of the water, heh (at least a non-mage Bureau cruiser captain).

Things to consider.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:39   Link #9235
Chaos2Frozen
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Note that implants won't work.

It was specifically said in Strikers that, while you can make new organs and things to replace something (ie, can make a new heart or liver, or muscle), you can't make things that will be *better* that the original. There are issues with long-term use and rejection and stuff. It was specifically said that Jail got around those problems by engineering babies when they were born, to be able to accept cyborg parts. So you can have your implants... if you're willing to be unethical about it and create such a baby from scratch. And even then, it needs regular maintenance, which can cost extra money.
Sigh, every other person is 'unethical' as it is, I'm looking for a simple solution to increasing the proficiency of the grunt mages.

(You know... So it doesn't give them too much of a reason to revolt...)

So about my "Transplanting Linker Core" pitch...? It's not unethical if they volunteer!

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Also, it was strongly hinted that not everyone can use cartridges, or would be appropriate. Caro and Hayate don't. Manufacturing the cartridges would also take extra resources. I'm gonna take a wild stab and say money isn't infinite where the TSAB is concerned.
I'm under the impression that it was the device the receive the stress of the cartridge, what seems to be the problem?

Well Manufacturing can't be that much of an issue if the Yagami family can do it in their living room, besides it's just stuffing magic into a container.


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Lastly, devices would seem to be mostly powered by their master's magic. Vice had one but Alto didn't. In fact, no non-mage is shown to have one. Why is that? Not even some sort of intelligent assistant, like we would have a Blackberry or smartphone. If the only way to provide sufficient power over the long haul (without the use of magic batteries that only give 6 hours of power) is the mage's magic, then it makes sense.

One last thing of interest: Every ship captain shown to date has been a mage. Perhaps a ship is merely just another device for a mage (perhaps multiple mages) in which they can store up their magic in it over time for use in various fashions (shields, weapons, hyperspace jumping). This doesn't rule out a standard power source as well, for for mundane things like lighting and thrusters, however. If we ever do see a non-mage ship captain, though, it'll blow this theory out of the water, heh (at least a non-mage Bureau cruiser captain).

Things to consider.
If every vehicle, or rather just the combat ones can be considered as a device, then it's possible for them to be used for other things beside blasting in a straight line- I mean, if a small staff can do all that...

Also we do have robots running on alternate source of power, both Preicia's and Jail's, so I'm guessing magic doesn't have to run everything... Or at least you don't always require a mage to do the heavy lifting.
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Old 2011-01-04, 23:51   Link #9236
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Sigh, every other person is 'unethical' as it is, I'm looking for a simple solution to increasing the proficiency of the grunt mages.

(You know... So it doesn't give them too much of a reason to revolt...)

So about my "Transplanting Linker Core" pitch...? It's not unethical if they volunteer!
Sure, if you're the absolute ruler or a mad scientist with a free hand to work your magic, you don't have to worry about ethics. In the real world? People tend to frown when you do some stuff.

I know, crazy right?

Your linker core transplant isn't on too solid ground, either. We have no idea if anyone survived a complete core removal. Nanoha was only drained partially, and we have no idea how much of Fate's Signum took. Even if removal is possible, there have to be some risks; Fate could have ended up losing her magic permanently (hey, an interesting fanfic idea!). And then, even if you pulled a core out of someone, you might run into rejection issues with the transplantee, like you do with normal organs.

So you got your new mage, but he has to take expensive rejection medication every day for the rest of his life.

So, you have to assume that someone can regenerate their core from having it completely removed, and that the new person would suffer no ill effects from getting it. Fairly big leaps there, but I'll grant that it's slightly plausible (at least more so than the other options).

Quote:
I'm under the impression that it was the device the receive the stress of the cartridge, what seems to be the problem?
While the device does receive stress (and thus needs to be reinforced to withstand it), remember what's going on here; the mage is getting a ton of mana injected into them all at once. That may not be something just anyone can handle. And it might run contrary to their style of magic, too (see the aforementioned Hayate and Caro).

Cartridges gotta cost something, too. Ammo costs for any army aren't inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bureau made mages pay for cartridges themselves (I would guess Subaru and Teana did, since they made their own devices), or create the cartridges themselves.

Quote:
Well Manufacturing can't be that much of an issue if the Yagami family can do it in their living room, besides it's just stuffing magic into a container.
What kind of container? And how many cartridges could one mage churn out at any one time? Somehow, the process doesn't seem as simple as you'd like it to be. Remember; a cartridges is supposed to give a rather LARGE boost of magic. Which means a cartridges has to have a large bunch of mana pushed into it. Someone like Nanoha or Shamal could probably churn out a half-dozen a day no problem, but to someone with lower magic point values who can't generate near as much mana, like say a standard front line C-ranked foot soldier mage?

One last thing to keep in mind, is that it's specifically said one of the main issues plaguing the strength of TSAB mages... is proper training from skilled trainers. That's a big reason why Nanoha went into teaching. I'd say, more than anything else on your list for improving the TSAB, would be bring up better mage trainers, and get more mages interested in teaching. We saw it in StrikerS, how the Forwards got much better fairly quickly due to several people teaching them (they went from barely able to handle drones, to standing up against three cyborgs at once in the course of 6 months or so).

Quote:
If every vehicle, or rather just the combat ones can be considered as a device, then it's possible for them to be used for other things beside blasting in a straight line- I mean, if a small staff can do all that...
Didn't say all vehicles were a device, just that some could be. Storm Raider basically interfaced with a helicopter, but Alto could fly without one.

Quote:
Also we do have robots running on alternate source of power, both Preicia's and Jail's, so I'm guessing magic doesn't have to run everything... Or at least you don't always require a mage to do the heavy lifting.
Well, we're getting onto shaky ground here, because while there is alternate power in the Nanohaverse (Teana riding the motorcyle in the Cradle), we don't know what it is. But we can extrapolate a few things.

Generating power isn't easy. Unless you're burning some type of fuel, you generally need a large reactor of some kind. On Earth, we have Nuclear reactors that can churn out a lot of power, so why don't we have mini nuke reactors powering cars?

Size issues.

How do we get around this? Batteries.

If we're talking standard power issues in the Nanohaverse, then physics applies. Thus, they could have a large reactor for their ships to power stuff like anti-grav to keep a ship in the air (The Asura floating in the clouds), but anything smaller (like a Robot or helicopter) would require a battery. Batteries tend to be rather inefficient for what they power (I could show you the racks of batteries I have in my hybrid Honda Civic).

I'm betting Precia's robots are battery powered, and thus would probably only have maybe 30 minutes of direct activity. I find it interesting that she didn't activate them until she activated the Jewel seeds; she could have had them fight off the Enforcers sent to arrest her. My guess is, she knew they don't last too long, and saved them to protect her while she actually used the seeds. But who knows?

Jail's cyborgs are actually magically powered. The cyborgs do have linker cores, and that's harnessed and converted to the energy needed for enhanced movement and their abilities. They still had a magic circle, showing that magic was involved, it was just converted into a different type of energy (this type of conversion is happening in Force with the AEC weapons).

I bet there is something like a Nuclear reactor on a Bureau ship, or on the ground, providing normal electric power for lights and for charging cars and motorcycles. But anything that requires more juice and is smaller, would have to have a battery, which would be drained fairly quickly.

I could be wrong, and the Bureau could have a super battery that is the size of my thumb and can power a death machine for 24 hours, but given physics, it's not likely.
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Old 2011-01-05, 01:11   Link #9237
Chaos2Frozen
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Your linker core transplant isn't on too solid ground, either. We have no idea if anyone survived a complete core removal. Nanoha was only drained partially, and we have no idea how much of Fate's Signum took. Even if removal is possible, there have to be some risks; Fate could have ended up losing her magic permanently (hey, an interesting fanfic idea!). And then, even if you pulled a core out of someone, you might run into rejection issues with the transplantee, like you do with normal organs.

So you got your new mage, but he has to take expensive rejection medication every day for the rest of his life.

So, you have to assume that someone can regenerate their core from having it completely removed, and that the new person would suffer no ill effects from getting it. Fairly big leaps there, but I'll grant that it's slightly plausible (at least more so than the other options).
Yes I'm suggesting only a partial remove, similar to what Nanoha (and Fate I recall) went through, Both of them recovered just fine and had their Linker Core regenerated.

I had thought about compatibility issues, but I've also recalled that if the Book of Darkness could process so many Linker Cores without a problem, that means a method should exist, or maybe there isn't an issue in the first place I mean it's not like the Linker Core is connected to your blood vessels and all that medical stuff right?



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Cartridges gotta cost something, too. Ammo costs for any army aren't inconsequential. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bureau made mages pay for cartridges themselves (I would guess Subaru and Teana did, since they made their own devices), or create the cartridges themselves.
Armies have paid for more expensive toys then bullets. If given enough support by proving it's effectiveness, I don't see why they couldn't make some changes to the budget.

At the very least, I'm sure it's no more expensive than the stuff they're already playing for... Like the weekly Ace Vacation Trips.


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While the device does receive stress (and thus needs to be reinforced to withstand it), remember what's going on here; the mage is getting a ton of mana injected into them all at once. That may not be something just anyone can handle. And it might run contrary to their style of magic, too (see the aforementioned Hayate and Caro).


What kind of container? And how many cartridges could one mage churn out at any one time? Somehow, the process doesn't seem as simple as you'd like it to be. Remember; a cartridges is supposed to give a rather LARGE boost of magic. Which means a cartridges has to have a large bunch of mana pushed into it. Someone like Nanoha or Shamal could probably churn out a half-dozen a day no problem, but to someone with lower magic point values who can't generate near as much mana, like say a standard front line C-ranked foot soldier mage?

In that case, there never really was a standard for this kind of things right? Similar to how we have different types of ammunition, if most soldiers can't handle the stress from an Ace-class cartridge, then just lessen the load of magic poured into it to manageable quantity at the same time it'll make things more manufacturing- friendly.



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One last thing to keep in mind, is that it's specifically said one of the main issues plaguing the strength of TSAB mages... is proper training from skilled trainers. That's a big reason why Nanoha went into teaching. I'd say, more than anything else on your list for improving the TSAB, would be bring up better mage trainers, and get more mages interested in teaching. We saw it in StrikerS, how the Forwards got much better fairly quickly due to several people teaching them (they went from barely able to handle drones, to standing up against three cyborgs at once in the course of 6 months or so).
Yeah this is a given.

Makes you wonder though... Who the hell have they been hiring up till now...


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Well, we're getting onto shaky ground here, because while there is alternate power in the Nanohaverse (Teana riding the motorcyle in the Cradle), we don't know what it is. But we can extrapolate a few things.

Generating power isn't easy. Unless you're burning some type of fuel, you generally need a large reactor of some kind. On Earth, we have Nuclear reactors that can churn out a lot of power, so why don't we have mini nuke reactors powering cars?

Size issues.

How do we get around this? Batteries.

If we're talking standard power issues in the Nanohaverse, then physics applies. Thus, they could have a large reactor for their ships to power stuff like anti-grav to keep a ship in the air (The Asura floating in the clouds), but anything smaller (like a Robot or helicopter) would require a battery. Batteries tend to be rather inefficient for what they power (I could show you the racks of batteries I have in my hybrid Honda Civic).

I'm betting Precia's robots are battery powered, and thus would probably only have maybe 30 minutes of direct activity. I find it interesting that she didn't activate them until she activated the Jewel seeds; she could have had them fight off the Enforcers sent to arrest her. My guess is, she knew they don't last too long, and saved them to protect her while she actually used the seeds. But who knows?

Jail's cyborgs are actually magically powered. The cyborgs do have linker cores, and that's harnessed and converted to the energy needed for enhanced movement and their abilities. They still had a magic circle, showing that magic was involved, it was just converted into a different type of energy (this type of conversion is happening in Force with the AEC weapons).

I bet there is something like a Nuclear reactor on a Bureau ship, or on the ground, providing normal electric power for lights and for charging cars and motorcycles. But anything that requires more juice and is smaller, would have to have a battery, which would be drained fairly quickly.

I could be wrong, and the Bureau could have a super battery that is the size of my thumb and can power a death machine for 24 hours, but given physics, it's not likely.

In other words, we don't know anything for sure

At the very least I'm certain that no War machine meant for combat would only have less than one hour of operation time, Hell even our current UAVs can remain operational for 3 days straight. The TSAB at worst would be three decades ahead of us. Anyway, according to Dr. Michio Kaku on "Science of Games" (), Nano-batteries are probably available technology for them

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2011-01-05 at 02:08.
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Old 2011-01-05, 03:51   Link #9238
Kyral
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Yeah I admit I too always was a little confused about the energy technology on Midchilda.

We had computer systems and vehicles that seem to run on magic, floating magical touchable holograms (that could be generated even by said computer systems) and so on.

But I came to think that most vehicles use a different power source than a mage.
I mean, think of Fate's car. Me imagin her using her magic to drive it somehow makes a picture pop up like when Erza drove the magical car in Fairy Tail, with this thing attached to her arm that would suck out her mana.

When we talk about Precia's robots, I always thought they ware magical summons, seeing how the suddenly rise out of the ground through magic circles.

And Jail's drones might run on these small Jewel Seed replicas TSAB found inside. Maybe they could replicate the technology to create better systems for thier own use now.
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Old 2011-01-05, 04:05   Link #9239
Chaos2Frozen
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And Jail's drones might run on these small Jewel Seed replicas TSAB found inside. Maybe they could replicate the technology to create better systems for thier own use now.
They just need to stabilize it so that they don't destroy the fabric of space-time when someone shoot at it or something... I mean, it's not like when you shoot a battery it explodes or something, I'm sure even 1% of the original output is enough as long as it's safe.

You know, I did never like the idea that 'Ancient Technology' is always better than the modern ones because it's from a wiped out civilization... But in any case, my intention is for them to improve on their technology or at least get creative with it instead of every big powerful weapon is an ancient relic.... Ultimately, I could see them creating their own version of a Midchildan Grimoire/Tome that is better than the original [Tome of Night Sky], maybe even with an Artificial Ang- *beep!*

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Old 2011-01-05, 12:09   Link #9240
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Yes I'm suggesting only a partial remove, similar to what Nanoha (and Fate I recall) went through, Both of them recovered just fine and had their Linker Core regenerated.
They could have just gotten a bit lucky, too. Say, perhaps there is a 50/50 chance of regeneration. And it was also said it was because they were so young, too, that they managed to recover.

Quote:
I had thought about compatibility issues, but I've also recalled that if the Book of Darkness could process so many Linker Cores without a problem, that means a method should exist, or maybe there isn't an issue in the first place I mean it's not like the Linker Core is connected to your blood vessels and all that medical stuff right?
In that case, the linker core was being absorbed into a computer, and being translated into pages (ie, data). The process was reversed for the knights, but it could be that easy because the knights are programs.

I did have a fic where Shamal was the one to original create the linker core removal process, but it was a medical technique to repair it, and then place it back in the body.

Quote:
Armies have paid for more expensive toys then bullets. If given enough support by proving it's effectiveness, I don't see why they couldn't make some changes to the budget.
Ongoing costs. Right now, cartridges seemed to be limited to Aces mainly, if they want it. You're talking expanding that to the thousands of normal red shirt mages who carry that standard staff. That's going to greatly enhance costs.

Quote:
At the very least, I'm sure it's no more expensive than the stuff they're already playing for... Like the weekly Ace Vacation Trips.
Think you might be overstating it a bit. In all likely hood, the aces would get several weeks of paid vacation a year like we do on Earth. While other grunt troops or reserves would only be paid for the time they are on active duty. But ultimately, we don't know how they work things out.

But ammo costs are not trivial, and you're talking about adding a ton to the budget. The US's military budget easily dwarfs the next biggest military budgets combined, so the US is a special case in which we get most of the military stuff we want. Usually, it's not quite like that.

Quote:
In that case, there never really was a standard for this kind of things right? Similar to how we have different types of ammunition, if most soldiers can't handle the stress from an Ace-class cartridge, then just lessen the load of magic poured into it to manageable quantity at the same time it'll make things more manufacturing- friendly.
So you're talking about making it much weaker? That would kinda defeat the purpose of giving them cartridges. If you're only boosting the power of a spell by 10% from popping a cartridge, the cost might not be worth it, to retrofit all standard mage staves with cartridge systems.

Quote:
Makes you wonder though... Who the hell have they been hiring up till now...
Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher, or even a good one. Nanoha is just really good at it (Vita, too, in a drill sargeant kind of way). Sometimes it's a matter of finding them, and sometimes it's a matter of attracting the good ones.

Quote:
At the very least I'm certain that no War machine meant for combat would only have less than one hour of operation time, Hell even our current UAVs can remain operational for 3 days straight. The TSAB at worst would be three decades ahead of us. Anyway, according to Dr. Michio Kaku on "Science of Games" (), Nano-batteries are probably available technology for them
I think you underestimate what batteries can do. Your UAV's do a lot of gliding, and the power draw is actually kinda minimal. There is a great power difference between just hanging in the air, and changing your movement at great speeds while using some of that energy for attacks and shields. That's like saying Precia's robots have enough energy to walk slowly for 3 hours. But throw that same robot into heavy combat, and the batteries will be drained in 10-15 minutes.

Nano-batteries are small, but that also means the energy they can store is small. Physics dictate exactly how much energy you can squeeze into a particular space, so batteries are rated by efficiency, ie, how much of the stored energy you can ultimately draw, and how much space the energy occupies vs. the battery space. That's not something easy to overcome.

About the only way to get around it that I saw, was compact fusion reactors. We can build fusion reactors today that sit on a table, it's just that they take more energy to run than they put out. ITER is a big experiment to make one that can output more energy, but it's unclear if it will work (science has the theories straight, but engineering hurdles remain). A series called "Battletech" had giant mechs that were powered by compact fusion reactors, but this also meant that mechs were hella expensive. One of the slogans repeated in the books is "In the 3st century, life is cheap; Battlemechs aren't." Which is a good take on it.

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When we talk about Precia's robots, I always thought they ware magical summons, seeing how the suddenly rise out of the ground through magic circles.
You have to remember what a summon is. The creature exists in the dimensional sea on a planet, and summoning is just teleporting it here. So basically all Precia did was teleport her robots in from wherever they were sitting on standby.
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