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Old 2011-01-03, 08:56   Link #21161
Dr. Akagi
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Decided to post it here, since Ep8 thread is being heavily moderated right now. Most of this post relies on post-Ep8 knowledge, so be forwarned. The post below (originally from Ep8 thread) was the prime catalyst of the speculating that follows. Fell free to consult Ep8 thread for additional info (the thread contains final Umineko spoilers, of course).

Spoiler for Ep8 knowledge that doesn't actually prove anything:


Spoiler for An outline of possible Battler culprit theory, just for the hell of it:


At least that kind of a reveal would make Umineko a passable mystery novel. What we have now is a train wreck of unfulfilled ambition, honestly.

And btw I'm all with Sherringford, Iromaru and others regarding the fact that in its current (finished?) state Umineko is just a hoax and an insult both to the sizeable part of the fanbase and common sense in general (that's not to say I hadn't a blast following it, mind you, 'cause R07 is a good writer, unfortunately).

And I find any arguments to the tune of "what do you mean it's not a mystery, we've never been promised one, it still has merit as blahblahblah" just laughable, frankly.
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Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2011-01-03 at 09:59.
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Old 2011-01-03, 09:05   Link #21162
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
Decided to post it here, since Klash keeps deleting relevant messages in Ep8 thread based on how his interpretation of a mystery solution to Umineko (or lack thereof) differs from other people opinions. Needless to say I find it unreasonable, to say the least.
You do realize that I actually -moved- them here? I cannot delete any post without leaving traces. Ergo, I -really- doubt I've deleted relevant messages, considering they were basically moved.
The idea is that Ep8 thread was solely based on events happening in Episode 8 and opinions.
SInce there is no single truth disclosed, everything go through with speculations and whatnot, which fits this topic much better.

I would have appreciate if you actually see the point of my actions and question it directly to me instead of claiming such slander.
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Old 2011-01-03, 14:41   Link #21163
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
general R07 misogynism
...You HAVE played Higurashi, right? The most sympathetic characters, including the villain, are female.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
And I find any arguments to the tune of "what do you mean it's not a mystery, we've never been promised one, it still has merit as blahblahblah" just laughable, frankly.
No, seriously, it never actually promised to be a mystery. Remember Ep5? Remember the long discussion about that, and how despite it being based around mystery rules, there was NO proof that the story was intended as a mystery?

I'm not saying it really has merit as anything else, but....

The entire POINT of Chiru was the fight between those who wanted to open the catbox and 'defile' the story (the bad guys) and those who wanted to keep it closed out of respect to the dead (the good guys). Furthermore, it's not like the clues aren't there. This isn't Remember11; it only requires a little guesswork and connection of the dots to understand everything.

But I'm sure you've heard all this before...
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Old 2011-01-03, 14:57   Link #21164
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That and we spent half the plot arguing whether this story was Mystery, Fantasy, or even Romance.
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Old 2011-01-03, 16:32   Link #21165
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As I've said before, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and commits ritualized serial murders like a duck, it's a duck (who is also a ritualistic serial killer).

We can't possibly be saying that people who expected something based on what a thing was clearly appearing to be are somehow "missing it." Even if they're wrong, surely we could agree that intelligent people would expect, when they see a story full of elves and wizards, that what they're about to read is high fantasy? Sure, it might turn out to be a hard-boiled detective novel that happens to have a high fantasy setting. But can you really turn around and say "Well, you shouldn't have been surprised?"

It's like a story about a character with strong conviction and faith receiving messages from God and helping people come around to faith and then at the end the author is like "lol God doesn't exist."* You'd be forgiven for thinking it was a religious novel, since it appeared to be one.

*Apropos of nothing: Imagine Don Quixote written without a trace of irony.
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Old 2011-01-03, 21:27   Link #21166
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Hi , I have a small question to those who read episode 8. It does not relate to either the mystery as a whole or the ending. What I would like to know is whether the whole Kanon/Jesica reletionship was elaborated in any way, in light of what we now know for certain about Kanon's rather well "elusive" nature.

With Gorge and Sahnon everything stil seemed clear to me even after all of episode 6-7 revelations, but with Jessica I somehow feelt that some more character study was needed to elaborate as to how she fell in love with the alter ego of her best and oldest childhood friend. If not then at the very least some insight or hint as to how their whole aquitance must have really looked like considering the reality of the situation.

Was there anything at all,a small part of a dialogue or a creptic refrence would do.
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Old 2011-01-03, 21:38   Link #21167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamel View Post
Hi , I have a small question to those who read episode 8. It does not relate to either the mystery as a whole or the ending. What I would like to know is whether the whole Kanon/Jesica reletionship was elaborated in any way, in light of what we now know for certain about Kanon's rather well "elusive" nature.

With Gorge and Sahnon everything stil seemed clear to me even after all of episode 6-7 revelations, but with Jessica I somehow feelt that some more character study was needed to elaborate as to how she fell in love with the alter ego of her best and oldest childhood friend. If not then at the very least some insight or hint as to how their whole aquitance must have really looked like considering the reality of the situation.

Was there anything at all,a small part of a dialogue or a creptic refrence would do.
Rest assured their relationship is not only elaborated upon, but reimagined in a new dramatic light. It is truly shocking how central Kanon's wool hat was to the final revelation of the true nature of Rokkenjima. Everything is expounded upon, and dramatised in a glorious way that would cause even an audience accustomed to such greats as Shakespeare to cheer loudly enough such that their cheers would cause a reverberation throughout the world of theatre--

Well, anyway, don't hope for too much.
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Old 2011-01-03, 21:55   Link #21168
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Rest assured their relationship is not only elaborated upon, but reimagined in a new dramatic light. It is truly shocking how central Kanon's wool hat was to the final revelation of the true nature of Rokkenjima. Everything is expounded upon, and dramatised in a glorious way that would cause even an audience accustomed to such greats as Shakespeare to cheer loudly enough such that their cheers would cause a reverberation throughout the world of theatre--

Well, anyway, don't hope for too much.
Sigh I was sort of expecting something like that , but I hoped for at least one or two tidbits.
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Old 2011-01-03, 22:50   Link #21169
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Spoiler for My perfect ending would be like this.........:
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Old 2011-01-03, 23:55   Link #21170
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Originally Posted by Darkpierrot View Post
Spoiler for My perfect ending would be like this.........:
I really like your ending scenario. That's kinda what I was hoping would be one of the possibilities. But so far, looks like it's not going to happen.

What I am really DYING to know, though, is whatever happens to Bernkastel in this game???
I've heard a few spoilers about her and some mystery game, but I don't know too much beyond that except...
Spoiler for ...:


I recently finished reading the episode 7 tea party, and I must admit I haven't been feeling too gracious towards Bern since then (I believe Dlanor could adequately sum up my feelings during her temporary lapses of insanity). What I am anxious to know is this: Does karma bite Bernkastel in the butt or what?
Please give me details if you know them. I would appreciate it so very much and will worship your name(s) for the rest of my life. :3
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Old 2011-01-04, 00:12   Link #21171
Darkpierrot
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Originally Posted by WitchofCicadas View Post
I really like your ending scenario. That's kinda what I was hoping would be one of the possibilities. But so far, looks like it's not going to happen.

What I am really DYING to know, though, is whatever happens to Bernkastel in this game???
I've heard a few spoilers about her and some mystery game, but I don't know too much beyond that except...
Spoiler for ...:


I recently finished reading the episode 7 tea party, and I must admit I haven't been feeling too gracious towards Bern since then (I believe Dlanor could adequately sum up my feelings during her temporary lapses of insanity). What I am anxious to know is this: Does karma bite Bernkastel in the butt or what?
Please give me details if you know them. I would appreciate it so very much and will worship your name(s) for the rest of my life. :3
at least is possible if Ryukishi writes and Epilogue...
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Old 2011-01-04, 00:16   Link #21172
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Originally Posted by WitchofCicadas View Post
I really like your ending scenario. That's kinda what I was hoping would be one of the possibilities. But so far, looks like it's not going to happen.

What I am really DYING to know, though, is whatever happens to Bernkastel in this game???
I've heard a few spoilers about her and some mystery game, but I don't know too much beyond that except...
Spoiler for ...:


I recently finished reading the episode 7 tea party, and I must admit I haven't been feeling too gracious towards Bern since then (I believe Dlanor could adequately sum up my feelings during her temporary lapses of insanity). What I am anxious to know is this: Does karma bite Bernkastel in the butt or what?
Please give me details if you know them. I would appreciate it so very much and will worship your name(s) for the rest of my life. :3
I don't know how much you want to be spoiled, so I'm just going to be vague and jump to the point.

Spoiler for ep8:
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Old 2011-01-04, 00:24   Link #21173
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Well, I've never actually played Umineko. I was more curious as to how Higurashi qualifies as a delusional fantasy.
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Old 2011-01-04, 00:28   Link #21174
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Spoiler for ep8:
Tell me everything you know, but especially the things you can verify. PM me if you want to avoid spoiling other people, or you could just post them here anyway and point out how major spoilers they really are if they really want to know.

I'm anxious to learn as many details as I can about the whole
Spoiler for :
Mainly because I want to stop being lost. Sorry if this doesn't abide by any protocol or if it puts you in a bad spot.
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Old 2011-01-04, 00:35   Link #21175
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Well, I've never actually played Umineko. I was more curious as to how Higurashi qualifies as a delusional fantasy.
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-01-04, 01:18   Link #21176
Dr. Akagi
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
As I've said before, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and commits ritualized serial murders like a duck, it's a duck (who is also a ritualistic serial killer).
That's not the whole point. I may easily admit that we (I and over 70% of Umineko fanbase by my rough estimation) have been just trolled or brought this on ourselves because we didn't see what supposedly enlightened people like AuraTwilight have seen all along. That’s not the problem.

The problem is, it makes me wonder what are those other people so satisfied with now? What are they seeing that I’m not seeing?

Higurashi was an uneven attempt, it had corny ending but at least it worked as an above average horror story, as a pulpy mystery and even sent some important messages like "friends are good" (which I suppose clearly shows who its target audience was supposed to be ). And most of all, Higurashi was internally consistent, even painfully so, 'cause R07 went to great length to ensure that (even to the detriment of the last episode's quality as a piece of fiction). In short, Higurashi worked.

But this mess called Umineko? It doesn't work as a mystery, it doesn't work as a fantasy, and it hardly even works as a cheap romance now, either. Mind you, that was all up in the air till Ep8, and could have been played any of those ways with some effort from 07thExpansion. But what we’ve got instead is neither of those things. It has no merit whatsoever in its finished form. It can't be even considered a literary experiment gone awry because of its inhumane length and the sub par quality of the writing throughout. The only good thing about this whole mess is music, which is excellent by the highest standards applicable. But I wasn't buying music CDs, you know.

So the only thing that makes me curious is what are all the Umineko defenders so happy about now? What are they getting from that mess that I'm not getting? Is there anything redeeming that I fail to see? In short, what is the merit of the work?

Really, I don't have a clue.
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Dlanor A. Knox: Great Equalizer is the Death!
Erika Furudo: Take that, dead people!

Death and its implications as viewed by the Umineko No Naku Koro Ni characters.

Last edited by Dr. Akagi; 2011-01-04 at 01:30.
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Old 2011-01-04, 01:23   Link #21177
WitchofCicadas
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Originally Posted by immblueversion View Post
Tell me everything you know, but especially the things you can verify. PM me if you want to avoid spoiling other people, or you could just post them here anyway and point out how major spoilers they really are if they really want to know.

I'm anxious to learn as many details as I can about the whole
Spoiler for :
Mainly because I want to stop being lost. Sorry if this doesn't abide by any protocol or if it puts you in a bad spot.
Seconded. I LOVE details (especially verifiable ones), so the more the merrier.
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Old 2011-01-04, 01:40   Link #21178
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
So the only thing that makes me curious is what are all the Umineko defenders so happy about now? What are they getting from that mess that I'm not getting? Is there anything redeeming that I fail to see? In short, what is the merit of the work?
It was a really fun ride, I enjoyed having my expectations screwed with, and I fucking love the music.

Not every literary work has to have something like 'literary merit'. It's a serialized piece of pulp fantasy (that also functions as a alternate reality game) with really interesting themes, homages to the golden age of detective fiction, a vast host of silly, crazy characters, genuinely emotional and heartstring-tugging moments, and some of the greatest music in visual novel history.

What's not to like about it?
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Old 2011-01-04, 01:43   Link #21179
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What's not to like about it?
Other than the fact that it developed a fanbase more bitchy than normal, not much. I'll walk away satisfied if they port Chiru to the PS3, but that's beside the point.
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Old 2011-01-04, 02:00   Link #21180
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Spoiler for speculation:
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