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Old 2011-01-04, 06:04   Link #21201
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I have read neither EP7 or EP8, but what I gathered from EP7 spoilers the golden truth could be observers' truth. So whatever everyone at the scene agree upon becomes a gold truth. I think it kind of makes sense, because usually nobody suspects Kinzo's corpse to be fake, and the magic scene was between Big Sister Beatrice and Chick Beato.
From episode 8:
信じる心よ。……それは“私たち”の総意。
Ange: Shinjiru kokoro. That is "our" consensus.

A literal translation of Shinjiru kokoro would be 'heart that believes'. However, it's more like 'spirit of believing'. Kind of difficult to translate properly.

Bernkastel asked what it was so Ange told her. Bernkastel was at the scene but I don't think she agree'd on it. There were no gold letters but it was a gold attack that defeated Bern. (Though, Bern is back in the tea party)

I'm still reading episode 8. This episode is difficult so it may take me quite some time to finish.
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Old 2011-01-04, 08:11   Link #21202
whispers11
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Originally Posted by Dr.Akagi
general R07 misogynism
The inherent misogyny and sexism of the traditional patriarchal family was one of the driving forces of the Rokkejima mess, that's the point of the whole Eva-Trice business in Ep.3: a strong female who struggles to find her place in the patriarchal society.. And R07 wasn't even subtle in making this point.

Also, if you "turn the chessboard over" on the Ep.7 Tea Party and change your perspective just a little bit, you will see that Kyrie basically had Rudolph in the palm of her hand. Also, she and Eva was the main actors of this show while their husbands couldn't do anything and settled for supporting roles at best.

As for Natsuhi and Krauss, if Krauss got over his stereotypes and trusted her wife's judgment more, he might avoid the financial disaster.

Also, Jessica who suffers from the role imposed on her.

Finally, if you look at the show as a whole, you will see that female cast have much deeper characterization and play more important roles. On the other hand, a lot of mystery novels suffers from using female cast as merely plot devices with little to no characterization.

If anything, R07 suffers from the lack of memorable and likable male characters.

Last edited by whispers11; 2011-01-04 at 08:23.
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Old 2011-01-04, 10:13   Link #21203
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi View Post
I can't disagree with the above. And it makes me sad, because it makes Umineko just another "serialized piece of pulp fantasy" on the block, when it clearly could have been so much more.

I believe it was Gilbert Adair who proposed a theory that the real source of the reader's tension as he approaches the final pages of the mystery novel is not that he (the reader) is afraid his speculations would be proven wrong, but instead his fear that the author is incompetent and may perform some kind of asspull. In other words, the reader is not rooting for himself or the detective, he is rooting for the author to surprise him with his "magic", to prove his competence.

And I was really rooting for R07.

In my time I've read 65 Christies, 15 Stouts’, several Carrs’ and Queens’ and countless others mystery novels, be they Golden Age or not. I've been always fascinated by the mystery genre.

But you know what? My favorite author of all time would probably have to be one Philip K. Dick, an American writer of "serialized pieces of pulp fantasy", so to speak. During his lifetime he even attempted to write a Golden Age inspired mystery novel, based on a certain Christie novel (you may easily guess which one). The novel is called "Maze of Death". Needless to say, it turned out as just another "piece of pulp fantasy". And the author died in poverty and relative obscurity, but that's another story.

Funny thing is, all the works of Dick has been posthumously reevaluated and received universal critical acclaim. He was the first "pulp writer" whose works were officially included in the American Canon, so to speak, and published by The Library of America.

Dick's style was spotty at best, his plots were pulpy to the max, his endings either contrived or plain stupid. At the same time, many people, professional writers included, consider him a genius. As for me, I'll take a book of Dick over Christie any day (and I love my Christies, yes I do), because I consider Dick a far superior writer. So why is that?

On the surface level, that is because he's the master of the plot-driven narrative. His plots are complex, multi-layered and endlessly satisfying (that, unfortunately, does not apply to his endings). In them, parallel realities conflate, multiple secret conspiracies interlock, double/triple agents abound, and most importantly, paranoia runs amuck.

But that would be just pulp, as interesting to read as it is. What truly elevates Dick to superstardom in his field is his ability to make profound statements about the human condition using his limited "pulp artist" skills. And boy does he deliver on that one!

The penultimate chapter of Ubik defines existentialism better than all of Sartre's and Camus' works combined. Ubik on the whole is dealing with the hopelessness and loneliness of the human condition far better than serious works supposedly written on the subject.

The 10th chapter (the scene in the police department) of "Do androids dream of electric sheep?" is full of paranoia so palpable that it's, for the lack of a better word, uncanny. I've never ever felt so strong an emotion from words written on paper, no, scrap that, from any medium be it music or motion pictures (and I consider music to be far superior to literature in general). That is genius, right there. And that is "merit" for you.

The problem with R07 is that he clearly aspires to do something along the same lines as Dick, but unfortunately he is nowhere close now. But he has potential, and that's why he pisses me off with his every asspull, not because he's a bad mystery/fantasy/romance writer (Dick was awful at those too, for that matter). It’s because I believe I can see what he is trying to accomplish there and I wish him the best of luck, really. He's clearly ambitious, his strengths as a writer lie mostly in the plot development and narrative gimmicks department and he clearly is THE master of mindfuck if i know one. That's why I had high hopes for him. That’s why I’m slightly broken-hearted now. And to write him off as "just another crazy Japanese hack writing serialized shit for money" is doing the man a disservice.

But maybe it’s just me.
It's not just you, I feel the exact same way. And you were right, it was Gildeon who wrote that the tension comes from wondering whether his time was well worth it or not. He wrote it as an article for The Guardian, I believe.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006...agathachristie

Here it is, in case anyone wants to read it. I certainly recommend it.

As for your question of how people are enjoying this series, I'd say that the answer is that they have grown so attached to the characters that they no longer care about the actual story or tension. I personally only legitimately enjoyed one character in the series, and that is Will.

Partially because he has the same first and last name as me and I'm an egomaniac, but also because throughout episode 7, he was the embodiment of a true mystery fan. He used a combination of logic and his own powers to deduce the truth, puts the criminal down, and once confronted with a terrible solution, proceeds to protest that the story in front of him is not a mystery, but just the author's fantasy. His use of the Van Dine rules and their lack of efficiency really hit home for me. It was a mystery lover uselessly struggling to keep the story from being a melodramatic romance, knowing full well that it would be impossible.

That's how I felt throughout the series. Van Dine's rules weren't meant to be useful to solve the mystery, they were meant to show just how a mystery lover felt frustrated as he read the series. In that, I think Ryuukishi did really well. I can't hate him for making me angry like that, as that would be like hating Cameron for making me depressed with Titanic.

I understand where you are coming from. I think that Ryuukishi's aim was to make the events a total tragedy from every point of view, fantasy, romance, and mystery. He just lacked the skill to accomplish that.

The romance was the closest one to being a perfect tragedy. The writing and pacing made it still be pretty bad, but it was still the closest to being a well done piece of writing. The mystery tragedy was almost done in episode 7. Just a few more lines, showing a bit more of Will's fight against Bern, and it would have been great. The fantasy tragedy is terrible because it's not a true tragedy.

But I digress. What I think you and I are feeling about Umineko is not just a feeling of letdown as a mystery, but as a story.

The Umineko worshiping person might say "you should have seen that it wasn't a mystery!" but I'd argue that even letting the mystery slide, we still wouldn't be satisfied. Why is that?

Because we expected more. Not just as a mystery, but as a narrative. We saw glimpses of talent and expected it to shine through the ending. That glimpse of talent was nowhere to be seen in the ending. There was no sense of wonder, sense of amazement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildeon Adair
After all, he has invested a fair amount of time and energy in the book and he can't bear the prospect of its climax proving to be a letdown, either because it's not clever enough or because it's too clever by half.
This doesn't just apply to a mystery. It applies to any long novel.

And to put it simply, Umineko was not clever enough.
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Old 2011-01-04, 11:00   Link #21204
Kheve
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Because we expected more. Not just as a mystery, but as a narrative. We saw glimpses of talent and expected it to shine through the ending. That glimpse of talent was nowhere to be seen in the ending. There was no sense of wonder, sense of amazement.

This doesn't just apply to a mystery. It applies to any long novel.

And to put it simply, Umineko was not clever enough.
Hear hear. Ever heard of the stupid pink ping pong ball story. Its exactly that. Fuck the authors intention, give me back 2 weeks of my life.
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Old 2011-01-04, 11:55   Link #21205
hilly
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I have something to ask.At episode 4,isn't there a scene show that Ange found Sakutaro(based on anime) before go to the island and she call that magic?What do you all think of that scene?Is it Ange think that there are possibility that someone had escaped the island with bringing sakutaro along?Aside for this,I think a new thread "what do you think of this VN" is really needed...This is thread to construct theory and speculation,no identifying and speculating R7 's ability to create VN...
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:32   Link #21206
Judoh
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Originally Posted by hilly View Post
I have something to ask.At episode 4,isn't there a scene show that Ange found Sakutaro(based on anime) before go to the island and she call that magic?What do you all think of that scene?Is it Ange think that there are possibility that someone had escaped the island with bringing sakutaro along?
Two lines of thought.

One is that Sakutaro was a prototype Rosa made for a toy line, and that anti-Rosa or another company picked it up and made a toy line out of it in the future.

the other is that a toyline for Sakutaro already existed and that it was something Rosa bought for Maria. That would mean Sakutarou isn't original at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hilly View Post
Aside for this,I think a new thread "what do you think of this VN" is really needed...This is thread to construct theory and speculation,no identifying and speculating R7 's ability to create VN...
That's pretty much what I think Klashakari wants people to use the Episode 8 thread for. Reviews, opinions and the like.

But almost anything goes in the spoilers and speculations thread.
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:37   Link #21207
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So if I understand correctly.


Spoiler for Erika :
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:40   Link #21208
Klashikari
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Absolutely not: Erika is on her own. It is just that "a bit like Ange", she is looking for the truth, however ruthless it is, although the reason behind this is arguably different (intellectual rapist, that is).

She is herself, she isn't the product of Ange's psyche.
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:45   Link #21209
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Oh well...

I thought the twin pony tails were a hint! :P
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:52   Link #21210
Kurizu204
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Personally I would have liked the ending to be like episode 4 where Ange and Battler have red and blue truth battle.

Battler then says something Tohya would have or done something that would have gave it away. Ange then figures out amnesia/writer battler in her head.

Some more read and blue truth andBattler does the "who am i/im gonna kill you now thing" And Ange is like "you are a the author there nothing unnatural about killing off a character in a story!" Battler then would be like "oh snap you have done well"

Then it goes to real world battler in a wheel chair or whatever he say sorry for being a douche lol. Then plays the battler going to golden land scene.
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Old 2011-01-04, 13:58   Link #21211
hilly
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Two lines of thought.

One is that Sakutaro was a prototype Rosa made for a toy line, and that anti-Rosa or another company picked it up and made a toy line out of it in the future.

the other is that a toyline for Sakutaro already existed and that it was something Rosa bought for Maria. That would mean Sakutarou isn't original at all.



That's pretty much what I think Klashakari wants people to use the Episode 8 thread for. Reviews, opinions and the like.

But almost anything goes in the spoilers and speculations thread.
So,then why Ange think it is real magic??If it had a toyline,it she may had just consider that is just another Sakutaro,isn't it?Or does that mean Ange realize something from Sakutaro?Like in the anime,it show(I guess) the size of Sakutaro are pretty large,almost like a little boy..Maybe wrong...Or Ange think that the image in the diary/magic book? left behind by maria is surprisingly identical to the Sakutaro she had saw??
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:04   Link #21212
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by hilly View Post
So,then why Ange think it is real magic??If it had a toyline,it she may had just consider that is just another Sakutaro,isn't it?Or does that mean Ange realize something from Sakutaro?Like in the anime,it show(I guess) the size of Sakutaro are pretty large,almost like a little boy..Maybe wrong...Or Ange think that the image in the diary/magic book? left behind by maria is surprisingly identical to the Sakutaro she had saw??
As I understood it, the magic was that Rosa took a mass-produced toy and convinced Maria that it was something unique and special she had made. So Rosa's lie gave birth to a whole world for Maria.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:11   Link #21213
Judoh
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
As I understood it, the magic was that Rosa took a mass-produced toy and convinced Maria that it was something unique and special she had made. So Rosa's lie gave birth to a whole world for Maria.
I think we're talking about Ange's opinion though. Which is a different kind of magic. For her it's a miracle that something like that exists that she can remember her family by.

Then again. Why IS she surprised about that? She found lots of other things that they left behind as we see in later episodes. Like Diaries of the other family members for example.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:11   Link #21214
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Which goes in line with the definition of "magic" in umineko, and precisely the Golden Truth.

Judoh: Interesting interpretation. Indeed, considering the incident (and thus the gigantic blast radius), I can see why Ange feels it is a miracle.
As far as her surprise goes, it is probably because it is something that even Maria herself thought to be lost forever, so heh.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:34   Link #21215
Cao Ni Ma
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That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only...


Yeah, not like the red matters a whole lot anyways but it states that it was made by Rosa, she probably made another one and was gonna give it to her on the island but forgot it on the boat. Kuwabata then took it and left it there.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:35   Link #21216
hilly
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So...Is it because it should have not existed?Maybe in Maria 's diary write Rosa had 'killed' Sakutaro,but at day before Rokkenjima incident,Rosa fixed it and want to give Maria but accidentally left it on the boat?Thus,'magic cannot be seen without love'..Well,my intepretation..
Ange may suffered from the accusation of her family 's crazy slaughter and had the thought of everyone in family killed each other..But with the tiny things like Sakutaro had show Ange that there are still love in Rosa and it encourage her to think on the direction 'Uroshimiya family didn't commit any murder' and there was other culprit...My interpretation..what do you all think?
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:44   Link #21217
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
That stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal
Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only...


Yeah, not like the red matters a whole lot anyways but it states that it was made by Rosa, she probably made another one and was gonna give it to her on the island but forgot it on the boat. Kuwabata then took it and left it there.
It wasn't just one Sakutaro that she found at Kawabata's though. There was a bag in the display case that was full of them and he was running a pillow store or something. So even if Rosa made the first one she gave her it went into to mass production at some point probably.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:48   Link #21218
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We really dont know how many of them there where, we know there was at least one. This would probably fall into one of the things that was never intended to be answered and it wont unless Rei mentions it.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:51   Link #21219
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What if there was Sakutaro to being with, but Rosa added the scarf to make it unique for Maria? Could you argue that Rosa "made" "new Sakutaro", and it's one and only in the entire world?
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:53   Link #21220
LyricalAura
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You can also argue that the red truth applied specifically to Maria's fantasy world rather than the real one. That's why Maria couldn't process the second Sakutaro as anything other than a magical resurrection.
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