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Old 2011-01-04, 14:54   Link #21221
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
What if there was Sakutaro to being with, but Rosa added the scarf to make it unique for Maria? Could you argue that Rosa "made" "new Sakutaro", and it's one and only in the entire world?
Yes you can. It's called the Ship of theseus paradox. Another name for this paradox is called Locke's socks. It basically says if you try and fix something enough you can view it as something completely different even if it's essentially the same object.

@Cao: Yup.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:56   Link #21222
Cao Ni Ma
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Correct me If Im wrong but the scarf was added later by Maria herself right? Its been a while since I read EP4 but thats what I remember.
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Old 2011-01-04, 15:01   Link #21223
hilly
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Wait,what I really want to know is what do you think and interpret Ange 's reaction toward Sakutaro..She think it is real magic..And just see a pillow toy in a pillow shop is magic???
Well,there are possibility that the things she saw is not Sakutaro but other things...
What things could had let her think that was real magic??...Battler 's coat or Beatrice's dress...haha..now I am fantasizing..
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Old 2011-01-04, 15:05   Link #21224
Cao Ni Ma
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Ange isn't gonna flat out tell Maria it isn't anything but magic, she doesn't want to hurt her by saying its just another toy she found in an old mans counter.
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Old 2011-01-04, 15:07   Link #21225
Judoh
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I think I gave a good answer for that if you read it. You do understand that it's not "magic" in the fairies and gumdrops sense right? There are many definitions you can go by. In this case lie, claim, or sleight of hand or just luck.
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Old 2011-01-04, 16:07   Link #21226
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Guys, there's no hint of mass production, and it's really easy.

After destroying the first Sakutaro, Rosa was making a second one for the sake of apologizing to Maria. The tragedy prevented the exchange from ever happening, however.

Ange gave this Sakutaro doll to Maria, and claimed that she had magically repaired the original. Thus, she created "magic", which is a deception created for the sake of love and kindness.
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Old 2011-01-04, 16:49   Link #21227
Rias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Guys, there's no hint of mass production, and it's really easy.
But ep6 has Ange's Monologue of seeing mass produced Sakutaro... of course, it could be mass produced before, or after, Maria gotten her Sakutaro.
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Old 2011-01-04, 17:03   Link #21228
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Sorry for the intrusion, but something's been bothering me about Shkanon:

I know it's true, but how come Shannon accepts George's proposal even though she knows Battler has returned?
You could argue that Shannon got over Battler.
But then why does she stage murders to get Battler to remember the love they had?
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Old 2011-01-04, 18:03   Link #21229
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
But ep6 has Ange's Monologue of seeing mass produced Sakutaro... of course, it could be mass produced before, or after, Maria gotten her Sakutaro.
Screencap me, I don't remember that. Regardless, there's the possibility it was put into mass production because of the popularity of Hachijou's work.

Quote:
I know it's true, but how come Shannon accepts George's proposal even though she knows Battler has returned?
You could argue that Shannon got over Battler.
But then why does she stage murders to get Battler to remember the love they had?
She's torn because she loves them both.
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Old 2011-01-04, 18:16   Link #21230
Biichama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joneleth View Post
Oh well...

I thought the twin pony tails were a hint! :P
She looks like Bern, she has twin pony-tails like Ange... holy cow, she's their unholy lovechild.
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Old 2011-01-04, 18:19   Link #21231
DaBackpack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
She's torn because she loves them both.
This could be it; what about Jessica, then?

Firstly, does she really feel so bad that Jessica doesn't have a boyfriend that she pretends to go along with it?
Or perhaps the entire time she was just pretending.

Secondly, what's even the purpose of dressing as Kanon at all? It doesn't really even help her unless she just wants to challenge Battler. And even that requires a lot of effort to pull off, with the adults and whatnot.
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Old 2011-01-04, 18:45   Link #21232
winter 923
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About Sakutaro being the only one, there are many ways to interpret this.
1) There is a famous stuffed lion mass produced. Rosa knowing how to sew, created one on her own for Maria. Ange found the mass produced and sold it to Maria as Sakutaro
2) Sakutaro is a massproduct from Rosa's company, Maria is a child giving that stuffed animal a personality so ofc there won't be another one like this. In EP7 she tells Beatrice about Sakutaro's brothers, they may as well be from the same productline.
3) a mix of 1 and 2. Rosa's company does have stuffed lions mass produced. Rosa uses something to make this one unique to the others, Ange finds the mass produced and sold it to Maria as Sakutaro
4) Rosa isn't as heartless as most people think. She could have remade Sakutaro, maybe even made a sack full of it, Maria's bed is called the lion land.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:13   Link #21233
DaBackpack
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Spoiler for EP8 ending:
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:15   Link #21234
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I'm confused on something that may or may not be trivial:

Spoiler for EP8:


This only shows how lost I am.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:23   Link #21235
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It has not been stated like that. First and foremost, Battler is not even an accomplice but is a -culprit- but only in Bern's game, which does not follow Beato's games at all (too much contradictions, Bern going with a lot of shortcuts and personal rules).
*Sigh* that's why I'm fed up with people relying on second hand or liberal/inaccurate spoilers.

Anyway, Erika set an assault on the Golden Land in order to seize it on behalf of Featherine and Bern (since Featherine is about to make a huge party, celebrating Beato's cat box, ultimately opening it).
There is no logic battle at all, except future denizens with goat appearance are literally "eating" the Golden Land in their crazy rush of "I've found the truth" stuff. They are stalled by every fantasy characters, especially by Beato, Dlanor and Will.

Side to take depends highly what you are expecting from the tale.
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Old 2011-01-04, 19:38   Link #21236
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
*Sigh* that's why I'm fed up with people relying on second hand or liberal/inaccurate spoilers.
I really do know how you feel, which is why I'm looking for things that don't look like they came from 4chan. Sorry to say I've been there as of late. I fear it may have rubbed off on me...

Fortunately, my understanding is gradually building and I find myself coming to greater terms with what everyone seems to be complaining about. I just want to see what the big deal is for myself and judge it accordingly, but I lack the means and am unable of obtaining them at the moment.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:00   Link #21237
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Firstly, does she really feel so bad that Jessica doesn't have a boyfriend that she pretends to go along with it?
Or perhaps the entire time she was just pretending.
I think that Jessica is completely aware of Kanon's true gender, but deludes herself into pretending otherwise because it makes her feel better.

Shannon cares very strongly for Jessica as well, but perhaps not as much as she does for George, which is why she won the love duel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
Secondly, what's even the purpose of dressing as Kanon at all? It doesn't really even help her unless she just wants to challenge Battler. And even that requires a lot of effort to pull off, with the adults and whatnot.
Well, if you follow my interpretation, she never dresses as a boy outside of Jessica's cultural festival in the first place.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:30   Link #21238
invinciblegod
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Since no one mentioned it yet, I thought I should. Pinyin was not standardized until the 1950's. Before that they used many other pinyin systems. This can be seen on any atlas as many old cities used the old pinyin systems for romanization. For instance Taipei if used the modern pinyin system would be Taibei. Since the church was built at the same time as the 2 mansions which were built not long after world war II, I think I spotted a minor plot hole. Kinzo could not have created this riddle when he built the church. The modern pinyin system didn't exist then. Just wondering if anyone knows of anything wrong in what I noticed.
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Old 2011-01-04, 20:48   Link #21239
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
This could be it; what about Jessica, then?

Firstly, does she really feel so bad that Jessica doesn't have a boyfriend that she pretends to go along with it?
Or perhaps the entire time she was just pretending.

Secondly, what's even the purpose of dressing as Kanon at all? It doesn't really even help her unless she just wants to challenge Battler. And even that requires a lot of effort to pull off, with the adults and whatnot.
I'm really tired explaining this to you guys over and over.

1) Of course she loves Jessica too. But Battler is the original love and George proposed marriage, so Jessica's at a disadvantage.

2) She dresses as Kanon the same reason she runs around dressing as Shannon and Beatrice. She apparently feels she needs to incorporate costume play into her identity switching.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:03   Link #21240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, if you follow my interpretation, she never dresses as a boy outside of Jessica's cultural festival in the first place.
Well, if you go with the Yasu-theory, then she could have very well created the alias of Kanon to keep herself company, going as far as dressing up as another person. She said it herself, she desperately needed company and a shoulder to lean on after Battler 'left her' and so she might have created Kanon out of simple necessity at first.

Thinking back on it many scenes between the Beatrice's and Shannon/Kanon during the first arcs it's starting to seem not as crazy anymore.
Especially during Episode 2, Beatrice actually harassed Kanon and Shannon for being foolish enough to believe in their love to Jessica and George respectively...and she was actually furious every time that their love even showed a glimpse of hope for survival. Although it's quite sad to imagine that it was actually the Beatrice-side of Kanon and Shannon that killed Jessica and George, because they got in the way...but hey we know that
Spoiler for EP8:


Actually I think Episode 8 provided some definite answers, even though of course it was lacking this decisive moment where somebody stands up and proclaims the truth (which was only cruel because Ryukishi waved it in front of our eyes the whole time in the shape of a certain diary)...
I still hope he has a heart and somehow releases that certain book...
But still I would say that some answers were actually at least largely hinted at in EP8.

Spoiler for EP8:


While many things are left unconfirmed and I am as much ready to criticise them (like waving a solution around, even letting a character see it...but never telling us), but I think many people are ignoring some of the things that are actually in this Episode.
Yes, it is not an answer.
Yes, it would be *insert the most horrible swear word you can imagine* if he never released his own idea of the solution.
But, tossing aside everything just because he did not end the second main-arc with the solution being read out to us...I think it's just as foolish to do that, because that would really make all those years of making theories useless.
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