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Old 2011-01-04, 09:23   Link #221
Pikumin
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I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it?
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Old 2011-01-04, 09:44   Link #222
MeoTwister5
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Originally Posted by Pikumin View Post
I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it?
Depends if you think this is the "absolute truth" or yet one of the other many possibilities.
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Old 2011-01-04, 10:27   Link #223
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The Battle for Survival

Ange is on the run. What is a little girl to do? Who will save her?

Spoiler for Summaries:


Yes. "She" is alive. If in case you don't believe me...

Spoiler for Sheee's baaaack.:


Spoiler for Red Text:


Spoiler for Blue Text:


And... yeah I'll stop with a cliffhanger for today. Had some extra work to do so no time for translations. Moved the post-murder game segment to a new page.

I can say that the time for epic badassery is about to start. But that's for tomorrow. Sorry.
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Old 2011-01-04, 10:59   Link #224
Ayu-ayu
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Fourth Murder Investigation


Spoiler for Purple Text:

Catching up gradually...I noticed you missed two Purple Truths at the start of the Fourth Twilight:

Spoiler for 2 missed Purple Text lines:


These both came before Nanjo's proclamation. No idea if that's important or not having only just finished reading all the purple text and accompanying narration. Yeah, I'm slow, but I want to try to read everything carefully...
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Old 2011-01-04, 11:06   Link #225
MeoTwister5
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Yeah went back to check my save during the murder game and I did missed those two. Fixed in my blog.

Edit - Could the readers of the summaries, like, please not link the translations on my blog to just anywhere? I'm getting a metric f-ton of spam comments ranging from the usual bizarre porn links to someone wanting to sell me a dog. I appreciate the support, but please if you wanna link, link in a place where spambots aren't the majority population. Thank you.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2011-01-04 at 11:43.
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Old 2011-01-04, 11:48   Link #226
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu View Post
For my part, at the point where I'm at right now, I really feel like I'm getting a sense of what Ryuukishi07 is trying to accomplish, and it's actually rather moving, if so. If as R07 says, many mysteries do ignore the "heart", the true whydunnit, in favor of whodunnit/ howdunnit,
I just have to point out that Ryuukishi basically made that up. The Golden Age has more heart than any other genre, even romance. Sure you can find a few novels that don't present motive, but exceptions do not the rule make.

In order to solve Death on the Nile, you need to understand the culprit's heart. There is no exaggeration in this. In fact, you could go ahead and say that at least 80% of all Miss Marple stories require the reader to understand the culprit's motive in order to understand who is the culprit.

Moreover, I can say that
Spoiler for Curtain: Poirot's last case:


Ryuukishi loves to paint the mystery genre as heartless when it is anything but. Even Van Dine's 'heartless' novels were full and complex narratives, where the heart was important.

There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.

It's also very common to see someone being shot at his own house. It is not a matter of how, but who and why.

Ryuukishi's portrayal of the mystery genre is quite frankly, very misinformed. He either didn't make his research, which is unlikely given how he makes references to a few mystery novels here and there, or he just didn't research the genre deeply enough.

Sure, the story isn't a mystery. But it talks about mysteries a lot. And when it does, Ryuukishi shows his ignorance on the subject.

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.

Last edited by Will Wright; 2011-01-04 at 12:49.
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Old 2011-01-04, 14:08   Link #227
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.
Personally, this seems a fair enough complaint from a well-read mystery fan like Will. As a casual mystery fan, it's why I qualified that sentiment with an "If". However, I'll stand by my interpretation from the rest of the paragraph which was omitted in this critique:

Quote:
...then Umineko is a tale of the romance and fantasy that coyly lurks behind the surface of the mystery genre (perhaps behind the mystery creation process itself and/or the minds of the readers exploring the work), the magical realm of possibilities before the cat box is opened in those missing last ten pages. I really like the echoes of the events that reverberate throughout the eight arcs and the illustrative way concepts and rules are anthropomorphized or otherwise brought to life. It's not so much either a mystery or fantasy, but an illustration of appreciation for both. The "whydunnit" doesn't simply refer to the culprit, but the author of the mystery him/herself (whether in or out of the story).
That is to say, Umineko is more about the "heart" in terms of appreciating both the creation and interpretation of mysteries. It's not about why the culprit "dunnit" so much as why the writer and reader bother with the "dunnits" in the first place. Again, that's just my personal takeaway so far as I reach the midpoint (I think) of the arc. I'm not trying to say that mysteries are heartless and R07 has bested them at that game, but rather that he is doing a good job of showing the path to where that heart can be found to those of us who didn't know to look in the first place.
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Old 2011-01-04, 15:09   Link #228
milkypink
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So I just finished.
It took me around four days, both because of the language difficulty and the sheer level of emotion built into this Episode.

More than the other 7, I felt like 8 was truly endless. So many sections with such different moods... (I started wondering if there really WAS an ending, or if I'd be doomed to read this Episode for all eternity )

I was skeptical about the whole "choices" thing, but I think he pulled it off well... if slightly confusing. I still don't know if choosing a different cake slice than I did affects anything... I tried about five others without any immediate changes so I just gave up and went with my first choice (a la Ange XD)

I managed pretty well with most of the riddles (I even realized the atomic number one, despite my poor knowledge of Chemistry. I didn't know the answer, but I knew how it was derived... ) There were a couple that, even after reading the explanations I had no idea how they got there. (And there was at least one I didn't even bother trying to read I was so burnt out at the time x__x)

I chose the Magic ending... I'm a little afraid to choose Trick/Slight of Hand, to be perfectly honest I'll stick with my Magic ending for now~

For a while, I was wondering how the diary could possibly be observed if Ryuukishi claimed to not spoonfeed the answers... but as expected, there were no hard fact answers in this Episode (aside from perhaps some minor background facts in the Quiz Party after answering correctly, but nothing earth shattering) .

Am I satisfied with the end?
For the most part, I think so.
It's bittersweet, certainly, and as much as I'd love a completely happy ending (oh you don't know how excited I was with that boat scene for a while...) ... it wasn't realistic. Ryuukishi didn't betray the reality he'd constructed (much, anyway) and he didn't betray his readers, either.

But, that's just my take.
Time to read the previous pages of this thread...
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Old 2011-01-04, 16:14   Link #229
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Quote:
The intruder replies in red that it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal. (WTF?)
This is why Erika is awesome.
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Old 2011-01-04, 17:54   Link #230
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?
Heck yes. Though having to deal with the wait between episodes will drive me bonkers. It drove me bonkers enough this time and I only got into WTC this summer!
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Old 2011-01-05, 04:42   Link #231
erneiz_hyde
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just finished ep.8

the first thing I want to say is:
Good luck translating this, witch hunt! You guys seriously need it! B-)


personal review:

so, we get to have some detective works with Bern's game and I spent one whole day to solve it. The story in Bern's game was stated as mere wild speculation from the internet discussion from 1998 after they get bored with the Eva-culprit theory. Still, I felt kinda trolled because I expected to find the true culprit here.

R07 completely sealed the truth with this game and only focused on the wrappings of the story. I say I am disappointed because the truth of the two days are still not clear.

But! I get to see epic scenes! All character were going all-out!
Musou Rosa~! So fast that you see yourself dead multiple times before you know it!
Krauss Brofist~! The fist that will send you to the moon!
RoundGeorge Kick~! pun intended!
Hormone Fist Jessica~!
Dream Team Will+Dlanor~!
And....

LambdaDelta! If I ever participate in the fave chara vote, I will certainly make sure you get to at least big 5 just as you wished! I accidentally became your fan now! Love youuuuu~!

Edit: whhoooops, I can't believe I missed this. I was a serious Erika bitch-hater, but after this, I think she's Okay! -_-b

And the last kiss with Beato and Battler was seriously itchy I imagined an H-scene in that spot lol. oh, and don't get me going on where my mind went with Bern and Lamda's conversation when they battle it out

Above all, I think I get what this story tried to convey. It helped a bit if one sees umineko not as a whole, but in part. Like, ep.1-4 as the blue mystery part, then ep 5-7 was the red fantasy part, and ep.8 is the golden truth part, and that ultimately, what's important is what you believe. sure, it made it half-assed in every genre and sounds much like political or occult BS, but even Will said:
"Ultimately even mystery is entertainment. It's up to the reader to enjoy them or not."

So I re-evaluated my understandings of this story and decided that I am enjoying it. One might even say that this could be R07's bitchslap.

"This is entertainment. If you can't accept it, then don't go and shove that disappointment to others. Suck it up."

something like that? though that's just me.

/personal review end.
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Old 2011-01-05, 05:23   Link #232
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.
I wouldn't go that far, though I agree that the fanbase must have had something to do with how the story folded out.

Instead of us doing his work for him, how about saying "he and us together worked for our fanbase"?
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Old 2011-01-05, 06:51   Link #233
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Featherine is probably the most -broken- witch ever.
You learn in Episode 8 that she is one of those of the Creator category.

You will understand once you see how she basically turn Lambda into nothing, and I -mean it-.
What do you mean about turning Lamda into nothing... do you mean a colorful verbal battle against each other? or a magic battle like what happened to Virgilia and Beato? or do you mean her cruelty is nothing compared to Lamda?
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Old 2011-01-05, 06:55   Link #234
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Magic Battle, although it was beyond one sided.
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Old 2011-01-05, 07:21   Link #235
erneiz_hyde
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aah Featherine.

Her power reminded me of Remilia from Touhou, or perhaps Keine, or perhaps even the combination of both. That's real hax, just like R07.

Also, anyone know Lambda's リヴァイアサン reference? I though it was Leviathan but Levi was written with レ. Then I kinda remembered Laevateinn staff from Touhou (partly because LD somehow looked like Flandre) but that doesn't sound right. Kinda like there's "sun" at the back because how it worked as a exploding device. Refire Sun?
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Old 2011-01-05, 07:50   Link #236
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リヴァイアサン is the katakana transliteration of the english reading of Leviathan, as suggested by the Japanese Wikipedia.
Probably, Ryukishi was actually trying to discern the demon with the actual legendary sea dragon.
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Old 2011-01-05, 11:34   Link #237
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Wow it took me an entire fucking hour to discover that I posted this in the wrong thread!

Just one summary update for today. Nothing really exciting but at least one big revelation.

Spoiler for Summary:


Spoiler for Red Text:


More to follow tomorrow.
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Old 2011-01-05, 13:07   Link #238
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.
This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.
I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.

Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:01   Link #239
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.
I wouldn't say that at all. I think that it's harder to find a Christie novel where the murderer is a jerk than one where the murderer is sympathetic. The why isn't "tacked on" in stories at all.

There are stories where the why is just sort of 'there' and you can just ignore it, but the same goes to the who and the how.

For example, again using Death on the Nile as an example(though you could make a case for any non-impossible-crime Christie novel) the motive is not only there, it's what you need to solve the crime. Unless you understand exactly why the murderer became who he/she is, you can't solve it.

Christie's novels(Miss Marple comes to mind) always focused on the why, sometimes to a fault. To claim that there are few mysteries that care about the motive is nonsense.

For example, Van Dine often ignored the who to focus on the how. Of course there are no novels like Umineko who go on and on about the characters, since even one Umineko novel is already longer than most mystery novels.

Let's be frank, to expect the same degree of characterization in a series that has 8 novels and a single novel is just silly. There isn't enough room for that much development.

And again, the who and the how were ignored just as often.

Crooked House. The how is outright explained, the only question is who. The key to finding out the who is by finding the why. The motive is not just tacked on like Ryuukishi says. That's a fallacy.

Quote:
I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.
And I'm fairly sure there are fencers who can watch swordfights in movies as well. And I'm not saying that mystery fans will regret their time with Umineko, since it is still a decent narrative(even if in need of an editor) but it's hard not to cringe for a bit when Ryuukishi talks about things like "the motive is the most neglected aspect of a mystery" which in my experience, is just not true.

Quote:
Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)
Haha, nice analogy. However, leaving the mystery aside, I still don't like how the series was concluded. It's more like he invited us to dinner, mentioned the main dish would be meat, made a long speech about how to cook filet mignon that was...questionable, but still left us hungry for it, then in the end he gave us pot roast. Not just any pot roast, but a rather sub-par pot roast filled with parts of a filet mignon that made it look like a mutant sandwich from hell.

Critiquing the work on what it actually is, it's not a mystery. But it talks about them and makes a few mistaken assumptions about the genre. Leaving all mystery aside, the ending still felt like a letdown.
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:18   Link #240
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We are dangerously derailing yet again the subject into the franchise as a whole. I would like you to stop repeating the same things in the wrong thread, as it is getting exhausting on the middle and long run.
Please remain on topic regardless which thread you are on, and we are currently on the thread for Episode 8 only.

And again, I certainly wish that people stop declaring their interpretations into facts. I dunno about you, but there are limits to allegations, regardless if you are satisfied or not with the franchise.
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