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Old 2011-01-04, 21:22   Link #21241
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm really tired explaining this to you guys over and over.

1) Of course she loves Jessica too. But Battler is the original love and George proposed marriage, so Jessica's at a disadvantage.

2) She dresses as Kanon the same reason she runs around dressing as Shannon and Beatrice. She apparently feels she needs to incorporate costume play into her identity switching.
You don't have to elaborate if it really bothers you... really, I don't mind.
I get the premise, but there are still some dubious points.

It just doesn't make sense, to me, WHY Shannon feels compelled to change her outfit into whoever she feels like being.

Fine, let's just use the explanation "she's crazy" and does whatever she wants to.

Then how come Krauss and Natsuhi don't seem to notice? I realize that at least Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are in on it. But the servants are being paid, aren't they?
Which would imply that there is at least SOME organization with the servants' schedules. Otherwise they'd be scammed.

Fine, let's say that "Kanon and Shannon never had the same shifts" or "they did have the same shifts, but Yasu had to work twice as hard and cover two shifts".

Then why did Yasu allow herself to fall in love with both George and Jessica? I still don't think the love between Yasu and Jessica is legitimate. Maybe it was, but that begs the question "Yasu is bisexual?"

Fine, let's say that Yasu is bisexual and is in love with three people at the same time.

Then how come no one ever runs into any problems with this situation if Shannon is doing it all on a whim? Or, to be specific, if she was doing this to satisfy her Dissociative Identity Disorder, she would have to put an immense amount of effort with her delusions for no one to find out anything.

Does everyone think that she's logical and meticulous about this? It's a mental disorder. The consensus, from what I've seen, is that she has DID. That's fine, but to think she plans her entire life around it (and not getting caught in the act!) is going a bit far.

Fine, maybe people do suspect something's up and just haven't verbalized it yet.


These are the questions I have. I have my own personal beliefs and explanations for each of them, but what I want to know is if any of this has been addressed in the visual novels outside of speculation.

I mean, it's one thing to play "dress-up", so to speak, and pretend to be someone else. EP7 said Shannon needed Kanon, and that's fine! She could do this. I don't doubt it.
But living the life of another servant and pretending to be two people while interacting with others and maintaining this illusion is another matter altogether.

I believe Shkanontrice. There's little choice after EP7. However, unless Shannon is using Kanon for her plot for the "murders", then there's still some things to be cleared up, wouldn't you say?
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:40   Link #21242
Jaden
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You know I just asked the same thing in the episode 7 thread today. It makes most sense to me that Yasu's appearance on Rokkenjima is that of Shannon, she never disguises as Kanon, and nobody other than her knows Kanon. You could say that between all of the "many but one" Kanon is the weakest existence, that's why he loses the duel and disappears easily from the closet.

There's no hard proof. After thinking about the various extensions of the theory, I find this one the easiest to accept. I'm going to leave this thread alone now for the time being, because there's a lot of episode 8 stuff flying around that I don't understand.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:46   Link #21243
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Then how come Krauss and Natsuhi don't seem to notice? I realize that at least Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are in on it. But the servants are being paid, aren't they?
Which would imply that there is at least SOME organization with the servants' schedules. Otherwise they'd be scammed.
Stupidity. Or otherwise they just don't know because Genji's handling the schedules. Not Natsuhi.

Now for a Carr quote

Quote:
Your present problem is not to explain the villainy of the guilty: it's to explain the stupidity of the innocent.
man i love that one!

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Then why did Yasu allow herself to fall in love with both George and Jessica? I still don't think the love between Yasu and Jessica is legitimate. Maybe it was, but that begs the question "Yasu is bisexual?"
Allow herself? She's just willing to settle for less if Battler doesn't come back. This started a long time before 1986. The ONLY reasons I think Ryukishi included Jessica is because it's a very popular pairing with the fans, and because he wanted to make Yasu's gender ambiguous. Jessica doesn't really have a chance.


Quote:
The consensus, from what I've seen, is that she has DID. That's fine, but to think she plans her entire life around it (and not getting caught in the act!) is going a bit far.
It's really not...

Last edited by Judoh; 2011-01-04 at 21:58.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:48   Link #21244
Will Wright
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Then why did Yasu allow herself to fall in love with both George and Jessica?
There is no allowing or choossing in love. The only choice you have is whether to act on it or not, which Kanon didn't(which is a major plot point as well).

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Then how come Krauss and Natsuhi don't seem to notice?
Because Ryuukishi is a bad writer and/or they are morons.

Quote:
Does everyone think that she's logical and meticulous about this? It's a mental disorder. The consensus, from what I've seen, is that she has DID. That's fine, but to think she plans her entire life around it (and not getting caught in the act!) is going a bit far.
It depends. There is much debate about whether DID even exists or not, so writers sort of have a free pass to invent how the condition works. I've attended a conference where a professor made a 6 hour lecture about a partially conscious state of delusion, where the patient is aware he doesn't truly have multiple personalities, but uses them as a justification(for himself) about his own behavior.

For example, a man who cannot come to terms with being gay may create a personality that has absolutely no problems with its sexuality.

Shkanon would be somewhat acceptable under that theory. But again, DID is very rare, and again there is debate as to whether it even counts as a condition.

Quote:
I believe Shkanontrice. There's little choice after EP7. However, unless Shannon is using Kanon for her plot for the "murders", then there's still some things to be cleared up, wouldn't you say?
Not quite. Assuming she has problems with her sexuality, which is a given considering episode 7's ending, creating Kanon to represent her repressed thoughts is entirely plausible.

Battler is her first love.
George is her current love.
Jessica is her also current love, if she were to opt to swing that way.

Without getting a bunch of psych terms here that not many people would care for, Kanon being her feelings for Jessica materialized as something that isn't 'taboo' is quite the logical assumption.

Operating under this assumption, we are left with the following:

-Yasu complained about her body being unable to love.
-Lion's gender is a mystery.
-Shannon is her first personality

I say first, not main personality. But we are getting there.

Kanon acts like the repressed personality a lot throughout the series. Why is that? Because he is what Yasu sees as a taboo, which is her masculine side. She created a masculine figure in order to be able to fantasize about Jessica.

But why would Yasu see Jessica as a taboo? Why, because by this chain of logic, Yasu must be a woman.

The red guts scene shows that Yasu feels unable to love, but Yasu uses some very rude language during that scene. We have never seen either Yasu or Shannon use such rudeness despite their harsh situations before. We have however, seen Kanon act like that.

So I propose that the one we saw in that red guts scene is Kanon, who feels trapped in a woman's body and cannot "love" Jessica the way a man can.

So to conclude, after my reasoning, I propose that Yasu suffers from a case of self imposed delusion, making Shkanon plausible, and is biologically a woman.
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Old 2011-01-04, 21:58   Link #21245
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Stupidity. Or otherwise they just don't know because Genji's handling the schedules. Not Natsuhi.
Okay, I guess this is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh
Allow herself? She's just willing to settle for less if Battler doesn't come back. This started a long time before 1986. And let's face it the ONLY reasons Ryukishi included Jessica at all is because of the fans of the pairing and because he wanted to make Yasu's gender ambiguous.
I meant "allow" because she could "terminate" her feelings before they grew out of control. You know, in real life there's a point when you go,
"I wonder if he/she's worth pursuing..."
If you really didn't think he/she'd like you, then it's easier to let go.
Likewise, if Shannon herself is in love with two people on Rokkenjima, I would suspect she'd say "Won't this give me problems if both of them have romantic interest in me?"

But this can be avoided if her personalities have different sexualities.
...Is this possible? XD Whatever, I'll just go with it.
Actually, maybe bisexuality is the easiest explanation. Whether "Kanon loves Jessica" is a result of bisexuality, or if bisexuality is a result of "Kanon loves Jessica" remains to be seen. I won't pretend to know how this works.

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Originally Posted by Judoh
It's really not...
Forgive me, maybe "consensus" was the wrong word. I thought Dissociated Identity Disorder was the clinical term for what's going on?
That's just a misunderstanding on my part then.
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:13   Link #21246
Judoh
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I meant "allow" because she could "terminate" her feelings before they grew out of control. You know, in real life there's a point when you go,
"I wonder if he/she's worth pursuing..."
If you really didn't think he/she'd like you, then it's easier to let go.
Likewise, if Shannon herself is in love with two people on Rokkenjima, I would suspect she'd say "Won't this give me problems if both of them have romantic interest in me?"
IMO Yasu bottles her feelings up. So it's more like she had to find an outlet to direct her feelings somewhere. And since she doesn't really talk to anyone about her problems...well...
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:21   Link #21247
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I meant "allow" because she could "terminate" her feelings before they grew out of control. You know, in real life there's a point when you go,
"I wonder if he/she's worth pursuing..."
If you really didn't think he/she'd like you, then it's easier to let go.
A lot of people seem to miss the subtle ongoing struggle Yasu has with her own self worth--well, not so subtle in the red scene in the end, but. The reason I bring this up is because Battler had more worth to her than just someone she was in love with. He was a symbol of someone that saw her as she really was and a key to escaping a situation that she was, frankly, pretty miserable with no matter how much she tried to lie to herself.

Think of it this way and maybe it'll be easier to understand. I think everyone would acknowledge Yasu's heartache if instead of Battler, it was a young couple that, to use a random example, promised to adopt her into their family after a year and then just never came back. And not only that, but then she learned they still kept in touch with the people that ran the orphanage, but they never said a word about her. Yes, sure, you can point out that eventually she'll grow old enough to leave on her own and start life as an adult, but does that really do anything to heal the deep wound to her self-worth as a person?
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:22   Link #21248
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
But this can be avoided if her personalities have different sexualities.
...Is this possible? XD Whatever, I'll just go with it.
Well, it's not impossible. There is precedent for people who have more than one name and convince themselves that each name is a different person. Whether that counts as a legitimate mental problem however, is very much undecided.
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:51   Link #21249
DaBackpack
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Well, it's not impossible. There is precedent for people who have more than one name and convince themselves that each name is a different person. Whether that counts as a legitimate mental problem however, is very much undecided.
What bothers me about having multiple sexualities is that, biologically speaking, sexuality is controlled by hormones and human anatomy.

If you believe in "nature" over "nurture" for sexuality (which seems to be the case from the studies I've read about) then from a biological standpoint she should have one of them.

You can have multiple personalities, but no matter what you only have one body.
I can't deny that maybe "nurture" does enough of an influence to cause what happened in Shannon though. Maybe the "accident" had something to do with it. Since we're not explicitly given details on the nature of the accident, we can only leave it to our imaginations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka
A lot of people seem to miss the subtle ongoing struggle Yasu has with her own self worth--well, not so subtle in the red scene in the end, but. The reason I bring this up is because Battler had more worth to her than just someone she was in love with. He was a symbol of someone that saw her as she really was and a key to escaping a situation that she was, frankly, pretty miserable with no matter how much she tried to lie to herself.

Think of it this way and maybe it'll be easier to understand. I think everyone would acknowledge Yasu's heartache if instead of Battler, it was a young couple that, to use a random example, promised to adopt her into their family after a year and then just never came back. And not only that, but then she learned they still kept in touch with the people that ran the orphanage, but they never said a word about her. Yes, sure, you can point out that eventually she'll grow old enough to leave on her own and start life as an adult, but does that really do anything to heal the deep wound to her self-worth as a person?
This is a fitting metaphor, probably why she valued Battler so highly. It wasn't just a romantic interest, it was basically her hope for salvation.
Of course, romance had a big part of it.
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Old 2011-01-04, 22:53   Link #21250
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Quote:

It just doesn't make sense, to me, WHY Shannon feels compelled to change her outfit into whoever she feels like being.
"Hey Shannon what's u-" "I'm Kanon." "But...you're clearly wearing Shannon's clothes and-" "IM KANON"

Quote:
Then how come Krauss and Natsuhi don't seem to notice? I realize that at least Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are in on it. But the servants are being paid, aren't they?
Which would imply that there is at least SOME organization with the servants' schedules. Otherwise they'd be scammed.
Natsuhi is the one who manages the servant scheduling, and she talks to dead people and witches and shit. I wouldn't trust the bitch to tell a sack of potatoes from a chair.

Quote:
Then why did Yasu allow herself to fall in love with both George and Jessica? I still don't think the love between Yasu and Jessica is legitimate. Maybe it was, but that begs the question "Yasu is bisexual?"
"Boy, this romance is really bothersome. I'll just reach in and use this knob to turn off my feelings for-oh wait, emotions don't work that way."

Quote:
Then how come no one ever runs into any problems with this situation if Shannon is doing it all on a whim? Or, to be specific, if she was doing this to satisfy her Dissociative Identity Disorder, she would have to put an immense amount of effort with her delusions for no one to find out anything.

Does everyone think that she's logical and meticulous about this? It's a mental disorder. The consensus, from what I've seen, is that she has DID. That's fine, but to think she plans her entire life around it (and not getting caught in the act!) is going a bit far.
I'm pretty confident she doesn't have DID, what with the lack of memory lapses and shit. It's one single mind playing the part of multiple characters.

And yea, she's crazy. The woman pretends she's a witch at night and feels that being accepted as one is the only path she has to happiness. Why are we questioning her actions and motives from the perspective of a sane person?

@Will: When we pick up our talk over DID, will you please fetch me those journals you were mentioning in AIM?

Quote:
What bothers me about having multiple sexualities is that, biologically speaking, sexuality is controlled by hormones and human anatomy.

If you believe in "nature" over "nurture" for sexuality (which seems to be the case from the studies I've read about) then from a biological standpoint she should have one of them.
Then she's bisexual. You know, like pretty much all fictional Japanese women.
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Old 2011-01-05, 04:20   Link #21251
Kirroha
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I don't get it. This whole ambiguous way the answers are given out really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and not much information is given at all. A lot of stuff aren't even explained even ambiguously. Why did R07 choose this way to explain it to us? It's just all getting more confusing and it's really disappointing.
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Old 2011-01-05, 06:19   Link #21252
winter 923
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Anyone thought about Jessica being a lesbian? or you know...just in love with the person she knows and meets everyday since she is 9 years old. Yasu didn't create Shannon to love George, why should she create Kanon to love Jessica? Jessica is actually the aggressive one, having feelings for Kanon while he reject her. He's more concern about Shannon, doing whatever she wants, like a good little brother. The only time these 2 really come together is when Battler is the GM and we already know what an romanticist he is (even if he doesn't know) AND even in that episode all they talk about is about exploring this feeling.
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Old 2011-01-05, 08:32   Link #21253
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just curious, anyone knows what happen to Ange in both endings?
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Old 2011-01-05, 08:54   Link #21254
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Trick End: End of Episode 4, on the boat towards Rokkenjima, Ange figured what Okonogi's plan was, and kills Amakusa with the gun he has prepared to frame the Sumadera. She also kills Captain Kawabata whom Ange thinks he is in cahoots with the Sumadera.
Ange decides to live her own life from now on, with Erika commenting "good!"

Magic End: Ange doesn't jump off from the building and instead push the Ushiromiya business to Okonogi. The latter makes preparations so she can have an anonymous life.
Several decades, she is a famous author, under the name of "Hisashi Yukari". At some point, Hachijou Touya wishes to meet her, but Ange learns that the Author "Hachijou Touya" is actually the work of 2 people: Hachijou Ikuko and a man, Hachijou Touya.
In the end, Ange realizes that Touya is Battler, or well, was battler.
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Old 2011-01-05, 09:46   Link #21255
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I'm just posting in here for a small update on my tips. I haven't forgotten about them and I've slowly been updating them whenever I have the opportunity to.

I've added a bit more to the Episode 7 area, but I'm gonna work on finishing Episode 3. Episode 7 will probably take me a while to do- I will probably end up doing 3, 4 and 5 first before I complete 7.

I once said 7 was the priority, but I'm forcing myself to make it last as long as possible by reading it only when my brother wants to read it with me, since he likes Umineko too.

Also, episode 8 sounds like it's gonna be a pain in my ass to write notes for, considering the alternate endings...
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Old 2011-01-05, 12:46   Link #21256
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Well, it's not impossible. There is precedent for people who have more than one name and convince themselves that each name is a different person. Whether that counts as a legitimate mental problem however, is very much undecided.
Yasu never did get the chance to introduce her Rusty Shackelford persona.

Seriously though, none of her crap works unless she's simultaneously crazy and not crazy. And not even in that "so crazy he's actually sane in a kind of insane way" of a Hannibal Lecter style fictional crazy. Most theories seem to require her to be batshit bonkers and more or less perfectly aware of her own situation in order to properly regulate it.

It's nonsense.
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Old 2011-01-05, 14:50   Link #21257
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Trick End: End of Episode 4, on the boat towards Rokkenjima, Ange figured what Okonogi's plan was, and kills Amakusa with the gun he has prepared to frame the Sumadera. She also kills Captain Kawabata whom Ange thinks he is in cahoots with the Sumadera.
Ange decides to live her own life from now on, with Erika commenting "good!"
May I know what was Okonogi 'planning' exactly?
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:00   Link #21258
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May I know what was Okonogi 'planning' exactly?
Let the Sumadera kill Ange on Rokkenjima, or Amakusa kill all of them and then frame it on Sumadera family.

In the end, Okonogi gets all Eva's business.

It is because if Ange gets into the hand of Sumadera, then Sumadera family would use her to take over the business.
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:09   Link #21259
Will Wright
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Yasu never did get the chance to introduce her Rusty Shackelford persona.

Seriously though, none of her crap works unless she's simultaneously crazy and not crazy. And not even in that "so crazy he's actually sane in a kind of insane way" of a Hannibal Lecter style fictional crazy. Most theories seem to require her to be batshit bonkers and more or less perfectly aware of her own situation in order to properly regulate it.

It's nonsense.
There are certain degrees of craziness. For example, a man who stabs himself thinking the devil will die if he has so has the rationale of "killing the devil" for doing that. There is method to his madness. If her craziness is limited to "believes to have different personalities without actually having them" it's stupid as all hell but not impossible.

And I mean very stupid. DID is more often than not "person who convinces himself he has multiple personalities" which is not an actual disorder, just sort of...unbalanced.

That said I still hate Shkanon will all my heart.
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Old 2011-01-05, 15:11   Link #21260
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The theory that we have figured before:

According to Ange, Okonogi tried to get rid of both Kasumi and Ange. Kasumi is a very aggressive and troublesome partner from the Sumadera, and eliminating her would be beneficial to him on the immediate and middle run (and if I recall correctly, it seems it would be beneficial for the Sumadera as well).
Meanwhile, Ange is a liability if left unchecked. Therefore, Ange believes that Okonogi sets the stage with Amakusa, so the latter would let Kasumi killing Ange, and then eliminating Kasumi. That would be 2 birds with 1 stone, especially that no one would figure what happened to them, as they are on Rokkenjima, a completely deserted Island.

Ange questioned Amakusa and bluntly told him this theory, which of course was not convincing, until she presents the weapons she has found in his "golf club bag": a sniper rifle, a standard machine gun, and a supsiciously old gun, a tokarev.
Ange explains that it already doesn't make sense for a body guard to carry a sniper rifle: why would someone supposed to protect a VIP in a very close fashion would use a rifle like that?
Let's admit they can predict a possible scenario, the presence of the Tokarev is a problem. Ange figured that it is an illegal weapon that was quite popular with the underground society in Japan. Therefore, it is quite fitting for the Sumareda.

Therefore, the whole idea was that both Ange and Kasumi would mutually kill themselves (as Ange serves as the best bait to lure Kasumi on Rokkenjima to begin with).
If it fails, Amakusa could simply snipe them all.
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